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Interesting article in the new Chronicle, Well written by Col. Richard I. Dodge. #1750 Life member

 

Whadya all think?

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He’s since passed away. We didn’t agree on a lot of what he says in his article. 

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I don’t agree with his correlation. Friends of mine will put a box or so of ammo down range every so often.  Those of us that compete 3 plus times a month put a lot more wear and tear on our equipment.  The work we put into our equipment makes them smoother, more pleasant to shoot and much more reliable.  Speed comes via practice. As for stages, that’s up to the writers who’s goal it is to create an enjoyable experience for the bulk of the participants.  If you want to use stock firearms then knock yourself out, no ones gonna stop you.  If you don’t like stages then step up and join the rest of us that help to put matches together.  End of rant, though I’m growing weary of the whining that has been popping up lately. 

Gringo 

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With all due respect to the Colonel, although his writing skills seem fine, his logic doesn't. 

 

My grandfather was a founding member of NASCAR.  Once they legalized booze in Mississippi, he had no further use for his stable of fast cars for running moonshine, so he started racing them and sponsoring other racers.

 

NASCAR was never stock cars.  The Colonel even says so in his article when he states that 'NASCAR had been originated to race "stock" cars that anyone could build with "off the shelf" aftermarket equipment.'

 

Isn't that what putting a C&I short stroke into an Uberti is?  Buying the rifle stock, then building it better with 'off the shelf' aftermarket equipment?

 

I don't think anyone was buying cars, then driving them to the track and competing.   My grandfather certainly wasn't.  None if his cars was even close to being 'stock'. 

 

The Colonel was OK with this until they introduced wedge shaped front ends and rear spoilers.  Evidently souping up the engine, changing out tires, suspension, and transmissions, that was all fine, but once those evil front wedges and rear spoilers came in it was the end of the world.  

 

Funny, my Camaro, which is stock, has a wedge shaped front end with a 'splitter' AND it has the dreaded rear deck spoiler.  Gee, I wonder where GM came up with the idea that those things would make the car handle better. 

 

I also wonder whether Uberti and Colt have learned from CAS shooters and incorporated changes in design as a result?  I'm pretty sure the new Winchesters have a shorter stroke than the original ones did.  I wonder why, and I wonder, is that a bad thing?

 

I'm pretty sure the Ruger Vaqueros were a response to what SASS shooters wanted.  Is that wider hammer spur a bad thing?  What about the widened sight channel on the backstrap?

 

Essentially the Colonel is saying:  changes that appeal to me are fine (ie souping up stock cars with off the shelf equipment), but when they don't appeal to me (spoilers and wedge front ends) they're bad.  That's not a principled stance. 

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

He’s since passed away. We didn’t agree on a lot of what he says in his article. 

Sorry to hear about his passing RIP Col.

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Interesting responses, I agree with some of what he's saying but not 100%. I think he brings up a good point about making the stages all about speed. The shoots I go to generally have one stage out of 6 that I would consider a "speed stage". I wouldn't want a whole match with them but I have yet to see that.

Carry on............;)

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5 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Interesting responses, I agree with some of what he's saying but not 100%. I think he brings up a good point about making the stages all about speed. The shoots I go to generally have one stage out of 6 that I would consider a "speed stage". I wouldn't want a whole match with them but I have yet to see that.

Carry on............;)

The best speed match is the AZ State Championship at Bordertown in Tombstone.  It's termed a "gunfight"  Targets are in your face.  It's a lot of fun; it's always sold out within a day or so.  Not something you want to do all the time, but you should try it once.

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SASS going back to the old days would be like putting restrictor  plates on the engines for every race. NASCAR is about speed. It always has been. The fastest most consistent cars win championships. Well not anymore with stage racing. NASCAR should now be NARC, National Association of Racing.

Going back to smaller targets further out and adding on the clock stuff like carrying a money sack might bring back a few. I'd venture that we'd loose more than we gain.

The same story applies to NHRA and pro-stock. They started out as factory cars and now there isn't anything on the cars that comes from a factory car. Other than the name...Chevrolet.

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615
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With all due respect to Mr. Dodge, I disagree with most of his comparisons between NASCAR and SASS. There are some things that I don't like about todays version of SASS versus the 1998 version of SASS but it's the evolution of the game.

 

SASS is a amateur game, NASCAR is a professional sport.

 

NASCAR, back in the day, was concerned with how to create more NASCAR fans and therefore more revenue. NASCAR made concessions to accomplish that goal. One of them was to allow the cars aerodynamic body, chassis and frame work. Speeds got higher, times got faster, more and more people became ticket paying fans. They kept tweaking at it and it got bigger and bigger. At one point, NASCAR was the number one spectator sport in the US. Then NASCAR made some bad decisions and interest started to wane. In recent years, they have made even more (IMO) disastrous decisions based upon things that had nothing to do with racing. Events that used to sell out years in advance now have a quarter of the fans they once had. 

 

What does any of what I stated about NASCAR have to do with SASS? Answer is nothing and everything. SASS has made some bad decisions over the years as has NASCAR. It's the evolution of the game and sport. Sorry NASCAR and SASS, it's too late to try to put the tiger that started as a kitten back in the cage. What's done is done....try to move forward while keeping both old fans/participants and creating new ones.

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7 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Sorry to hear about his passing RIP Col.

Go to page 45 of the same Chronicle that his opinion piece is in and you’ll find his Trailmarker

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The article got me thinkin as well. Nascar lost me with stage racing and downforce “packages”. Thats ok, I can watch old races on the interwebs. The fellas i shoot with prefer stages with smaller targets and farther back. We arent as fast but have a great time as we are all shootin at the same thing. Out here we are fortunate to have several matches a month within 50 miles or so. If I want to go to a match that is closer with bigger targets I can. I dont though. Im curious but am having a hoot shootin with my buddies. Having attended other matches as a spectator was an eye opener at how close and large targets were at other clubs. 
Im not knocking that setup but it isnt as attractive to me. Im glad I have a choice, others are not as lucky. 

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Thanks Pale Wolf, The Colonel's comments remind me of a trainer that I had years ago. She would encourage us "Be yourself. Find your own market". In my area there is a pretty good mix of clubs. I'll gravitate to the ones I like (though most matches I go to now are modern 3 Gun) I'm glad to say that there are a bunch of quick shooters that are running hard on stages that are not just dump zones. I wish I had time to do more of them. That's a good blend and the sort I like to participate in.

 

Edited by meesterpaul
add'l
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CAS is supposed to be like NASCAR in one very simple aspect.

 

NASCAR is based on the concept that it "looks" easy - after all, how hard can it be to floor it and drive in a circle?  This is what drove its popularity; the perception that we all have watching it - that we could that too, if given the chance.

 

Because we COULD.

Everyone one of us who can drive COULD drive a NASCAR racecar...

 

I absolutely guarantee "you" could drive Kevin Harvicks car around Talledega speedway without spinning out or hitting a wall.

 

At 80 mph on an empty track.

 

Now do it at 215mph with 40 of your closest friends two inches away from each other. 

Hitting every pitstop perfectly.

Never missing a gear or spinning a tire.

 

That's CAS.

It's supposed to be "look" easy .

Given enough time; there should be no target, no sequence, no array or movement that individually is really that much of a challenge.

 

Now do it in 15 seconds.

For 12 stages. 

With your competition shooting on your same posse.

Hitting every transition; never missing your holsters or fumbling your shotgun shells.

 

The proponents of the smaller, more distant, "more challenging" match are lobbying for a more technical match (a Gymkhana or road course) - one that is more forgiving of a slower pace and less perfection.  Where a mistake, a badly placed wheel or missing the apex may cost you but others will inevitably make errors as well - so any single error carries less weight.

 

As in NASCAR - a singular mistake in CAS can cost you the entire event.  The winners need nearly perfect performance in every aspect of the game because in a "simple", high speed event - mistakes are magnified and more meaningful.

 

The shooters who lobby for the more challenging matches say that CAS is a one trick pony - "just" about speed - while discounting proper staging, transitions and movement and as if somehow hitting (even easy) targets at speed is automatic.   

These shooters miss the point that their desire for "accuracy" to become the standard would actually diminish the importance of EVERY skilled aspect of the game including accuracy.

Transitions/ movements/ equipment preparation matter a lot less when each shot takes two seconds instead of two tenths.

And the importance of accuracy itself is lessened when the miss penalty is less of a penalty.  

You can say the miss penalty is always 5 seconds - it is not.

If a shot takes 2 seconds to aim and HIT - and I simply snap a shot into the dirt in 2/10 of a second.

My miss penalty is no longer 5 seconds - it is 3.2 seconds.

 

Make the targets small enough and far enough away - You create the (unlikely, but possible) option of missing fast enough to win.

 

Just because you might be able circle Daytona at 80mph...

Won't make you Jeff Gordon.

 

And Jeff Gordons skill set will more than overcome any chicane or road course you think will equalize your chances.

 

Just because you might be able to hit all the targets going slowly...

Won't make you (insert name of hotshot shooter here to avoid favorites).

 

And (insert name of hotshot shooter here) skill set will more than overcome any target array, distance or sequences you think will equalize your chances.

 

So if you aint winning this "easy", "simple", "no challenge" game - what will your excuse be when you can't win your version either?

 

And lastly; faster is always funner.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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It's already been shown - make the matches harder/more difficult and the top shooters are still going to be the top shooters while the slower shooters are going to be even slower.

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On 2/6/2021 at 11:00 AM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

SASS going back to the old days would be like putting restrictor  plates on the engines for every race. NASCAR is about speed. It always has been. The fastest most consistent cars win championships. Well not anymore with stage racing. NASCAR should now be NARC, National Association of Racing.

Going back to smaller targets further out and adding on the clock stuff like carrying a money sack might bring back a few. I'd venture that we'd loose more than we gain.

The same story applies to NHRA and pro-stock. They started out as factory cars and now there isn't anything on the cars that comes from a factory car. Other than the name...Chevrolet.

That sad fact is that regardless of the distance to targets, SASS is not growing.  There have been several reasons put forth and all of them have merit, to some extent.   If the club(s) Creeker writes scenarios for is(are) growing then he's doing the right thing.  If clubs are not growing or disappearing then are probably several reasons.  Dragon Hill Dave's article in the latest Chronicle is an example of how a club "people" persevere in spite of obstacles.  As a response to Ike's comment, SASS was started by folks who were tired of speed, but is has been perceived lately that it has become only about speed.  It may be for some folks, but I doubt that the majority of shooters see it that way. 

 

BTW, only an idiot would think that they could drive like Jeff Gordon.  Some folks might remember that Jeff Carton said he could drive a NASCAR vehicle as fast any "professional" driver.  He tried and couldn't get it to move more than a few feet at a time.

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1 hour ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

SASS was started by folks who were tired of speed, but is has been perceived lately that it has become only about speed.

SASS was started by a few people who liked the old west guns and figured out a way to use them in "competition". It has become about speed. Any event where "time" is used to determine the winner is about speed.

1 hour ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

It may be for some folks, but I doubt that the majority of shooters see it that way. 

 

This has been said time and time again. Yet there is no proof other than the complaints we get when we put the targets out further, require a lot of movement or have weird target placement.

I'll offer that Creeker's club is growing because the great Las Vegas area is growing. 2.2 million people for 3 clubs. There has been an influx of retired SASS shooters who have moved away from commiefornia etc.

And as I have have always said, just because you have a drivers license doesn't mean you can race at Indy.

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Complex stages 'might' be more trouble and time to reset. That is something to consider, especially in a sport where there are plenty of old knees around that are happy to see young knees around to pick brass. 

Creeker's acceptance of speed in the game is partly fine in my mind but the counterpoint is big dump targets targets and a neat row of steel side by side and just barely past spittin' range. One or, ugh, two of those ammo-wasters per match is one thing. (Shooting SASS I've gotten by without a pistol front sight now for two years). 

Trusty Sidekick at Elstonville would at least split up the row; maybe put one or two of the targets off to the side more. 

 

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3 hours ago, meesterpaul said:

Complex stages 'might' be more trouble and time to reset. That is something to consider, especially in a sport where there are plenty of old knees around that are happy to see young knees around to pick brass. 

Creeker's acceptance of speed in the game is partly fine in my mind but the counterpoint is big dump targets targets and a neat row of steel side by side and just barely past spittin' range. One or, ugh, two of those ammo-wasters per match is one thing. (Shooting SASS I've gotten by without a pistol front sight now for two years). 

Trusty Sidekick at Elstonville would at least split up the row; maybe put one or two of the targets off to the side more. 

 

Are YOU winning all of your local matches?

Since they are simply "ammo wasters"; I'm assuming you shoot clean EVERY match?

 

And, hey even if you're not winning every match or shooting every match clean - maybe you simply think big and close lacks variety and you are a variety pack kind of guy.

That's fine - you are entitled to like what you like.  And you are entitled to be vocal about it (as I am about the things I like and don't like).

But if that is the case , then say THAT, say "I have a personal preference for X, Y and Z" - because IF you are not shooting every match clean or if you are not winning all of your local matches - then you don't get to claim that matches lack challenge.  

They may lack the challenge you are most interested in (I don't know you or your reasons - this may not apply to you) or they may lack the sort of challenge that some feel will benefit them while impeding others (as is usually the case when folks start lobbying for smaller, more distant targets).

 

Remember that, just like NASCAR, the course is supposed to be simplistic; because the challenge is not in the course - but in how fast you can complete the course.

And if it's not challenging to you - go faster.

 

Oh and just because I'm nosy - I checked the scores on Practiscore for the Elston Hombres and was unable to see any Meesterpaul scores.  Please let us know what handle you use for shooting as it's always interesting to see the basis for opinions.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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SASS is not a one trick pony. The need to be fast and nearly error free with transitions between guns and targets is mandatory if you want to be at the top. And it's very difficult to do so.  But the targets, with of course some variation, are all large, close, wide open targets. That's not what a lot of potential cowboy shooters (that may already be shooting other action shooting sports) want as a challenge. It's not the only thing that stops them, but it is something that doesn't entice them to try it. I don't know the answer to how to attract new shooters.

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5 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

SASS is not a one trick pony. The need to be fast and nearly error free with transitions between guns and targets is mandatory if you want to be at the top. And it's very difficult to do so.  But the targets, with of course some variation, are all large, close, wide open targets. That's not what a lot of potential cowboy shooters (that may already be shooting other action shooting sports) want as a challenge. It's not the only thing that stops them, but it is something that doesn't entice them to try it. I don't know the answer to how to attract new shooters.

 

1 - Close and large are subjective.  Different shooting abilities/skill sets influence a shooter's opinion.  I've not been to many large state/regional/national level matches so I can't compare.  Is every match like Bordertown?  I think not.  Hell on Wheels (Cheyenne, WY) certainly isn't.  Neither are the matches I've been to in MS, LA or FL.

 

2 - Who knows what "potential cowboy shooters" want as a challenge?  The people I've met, that show up at a match and show interest but don't come back, usually cite the expense of getting started. 

 

The keyboard commandoes that have never been to a match and want to talk about target size and distance hold no water.  Just like the Monday morning quarterback that wants to judge a military operation or police situation but has never worn a uniform or a badge - that "opinion" doesn't mean crap.

 

I personally would like to see us be allowed to shoot on the move...

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Shooting on the move would be fun.  Ive only been shooting matches for the past year so my experience is surely limited. I showed up at a local match to watch and the fellas strapped guns on me and let me shoot with them. That was all it took to hook me good. Bought all my guns and have shot every match with that club since. My thoughts are that the main obstacle to new shooters, especially now, is not stage design or speed, but guns and ammo. 
Its possible that my predilection for small, far targets is based upon my limited exposure to this game. I like the challenge that provides. One of these days i’ll check out a closer, bigger match and that might prove to be fun as well. Unfortunately now that reloading supplies are harder and harder to get sticking with one match a month is allowing me to keep shooting longer. 

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I am speaking as a middle of the pack shooter. I have some medical challenges, so I know that I will probably never bring home a buckle, but I shoot for fun and hanging out with friends.

 

Whether we want to admit it or not, any sport where you are measured on speed is about speed. I still try to go as fast as I can despite the reality of where my health is.

 

And from the MD side of things, especially at an annual, we need to design and set up stages that are easy to reset and keep people moving. If I set up every stage with Texas stars and knockdowns at the back of the berms, and 25 shooters had to stand around waiting on the next 25 shooters for 30 minutes before they could hit the next stage, how many would return the next year?

 

If the stages are more difficult, the top shooters will still be top shooters, and the middle/bottom shooters will just be aggravated and frustrated. How many of the middle/bottom shooters will return?

 

I guarantee you that if you gave me highly tuned guns and put stock guns in @Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 hands, he will still smoke me no matter what the distance, and that is okay, This sport is a family, despite the fact that sometimes we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional."

 

 

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I enjoy cowboy ACTION shooting.   I imagine I would also enjoy cowboy PRECISION shooting if it came to a nearby range.   

Would I like to occasionally shoot my rifle a bit further - sure - but why - there are other shooting sports as well as side matches for that type of shooting.

Would I like to pretend I was John T. Chance shooting a stick of dynamite from the other side of the ranch?

...sure - but I'd rather just do a single-shot-reload at a 25 meter target for a stage bonus

 

I don't really want to spend an entire match taking well aimed shots at teeny targets at extended distances using the crappy sights found on a cowboy gun - my eyes are getting too old for that.  Besides, traveling back to the old west in my time machine, it seemed like pioneers in the wild wild west were shooting their pistols at human sized targets from the other side of the saloon (aka = big and close). 

Sometimes the guy riding shot-gun on the stagecoach was shooting at human sized targets (or their horses) as they assaulted the stage coach - (aka = also big and close).

Maybe a wild west pioneer could be found shooting a lever gun to defend against rampaging Indians (or their horses) from roughly bow and arrow range or even a grumpy old bear that had made its way onto the porch of the log cabin - but again - that action would have been subjectively considered big and close.

 

I suspect when they would venture out on to the great plains to drop a buffalo or a bull elk that was way far away - they would take a Sharps .50-90 or maybe even an old Remington No. 1 instead of a short range lever gun.

 

These days I'm an older guy with old-eyes using gun sights that are NOT what I would put on a defensive pistol or a hunting rifle so I am ok with big and close.  

 

I think the NASCAR comparison as an argument for slowing down and shooting stock-ish cowboy guns absolutely defeats itself .   Race cars - are not "stock" automobiles - not unless you are Cole Trickle and Rowdy Burns driving rental cars to a diner party -  even 'bracket racing' is done with cars that you wouldn't normally drive to work every day.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Chuck Steak
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8 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

 

1 - Close and large are subjective.  Different shooting abilities/skill sets influence a shooter's opinion.  I've not been to many large state/regional/national level matches so I can't compare.  Is every match like Bordertown?  I think not.  Hell on Wheels (Cheyenne, WY) certainly isn't.  Neither are the matches I've been to in MS, LA or FL.

 

2 - Who knows what "potential cowboy shooters" want as a challenge?  The people I've met, that show up at a match and show interest but don't come back, usually cite the expense of getting started. 

 

The keyboard commandoes that have never been to a match and want to talk about target size and distance hold no water.  Just like the Monday morning quarterback that wants to judge a military operation or police situation but has never worn a uniform or a badge - that "opinion" doesn't mean crap.

 

I personally would like to see us be allowed to shoot on the move...

I agree.  For those of us who are trying to shoot as fast as we can, big and close can be just as challenging as small and far, it's just a different skill set that is being challenged in each case.  Those who are 'just shooting to have fun' (I hate that phrase, since it assumes faster shooters aren't having fun) may not experience the challenges of shooting big and close targets because they're not trying to shoot them as fast as possible.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I agree.  For those of us who are trying to shoot as fast as we can, big and close can be just as challenging as small and far, it's just a different skill set that is being challenged in each case.  Those who are 'just shooting to have fun' (I hate that phrase, since it assumes faster shooters aren't having fun) may not experience the challenges of shooting big and close targets because they're not trying to shoot them as fast as possible.

 

 

And as @Creeker, SASS #43022 pointed out - some of these same shooter's that are complaining do not appear to be (1) very fast or (2) very accurate.  I'm not saying this specifically to anyone on this thread, or that I even know, but some people just need something to complain about to rationalize/justify their decisions and/or abilities (or lack there-of).

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"I agree.  For those of us who are trying to shoot as fast as we can, big and close can be just as challenging as small and far, it's just a different skill set that is being challenged in each case. "

 

Of course. Shooters in other action shooting sports are also shooting as fast as they can depending on target size and distance and penalties for misses. They do have a much greater variety of what those target sizes and distances are. Those include targets (cardboard) bigger and closer then SASS and smaller targets at 20 to 30 yards. Most are still under 10-12 yards.

 

It depends on what skill set you want to practice and test.

It's all shooting!

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1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:
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Shooters in other action shooting sports are also shooting as fast as they can depending on target size and distance and penalties for misses. They do have a much greater variety of what those target sizes and distances are. Those include targets (cardboard) bigger and closer then SASS and smaller targets at 20 to 30 yards. Most are still under 10-12 yards.

 

It depends on what skill set you want to practice and test.

Herein lies the 2nd part of CAS.

Take a look around those other disciplines and tell me how many 80 yr old women do you see?

How many 7 yr old boys and girls?

 

CAS is, by design; a simpler game to appeal to a wider demographic as well.

It casts a wide net by newer and lesser skilled shooters being able to hit targets and ring steel consistently (albeit at a slower pace).

 

My wife is NOT a fast shooter - she may never be.

But she hits a fair amount of steel - loves the thump of the shotgun on a knockdown and comes to shoot so she can spend time with me.

 

My daughter started shooting CAS at 5 years old.

She has vastly improved in the subsequent 16 years and if she ever put in the effort; could be very good.

But in the beginning; she came to shoot to spend time with Dad.

 

Now let's consider what would have occurred if at the beginning, they didn't hit targets, didn't ring steel - didn't get the reward and reassurance of some early success.

 

They would have stopped coming with me.

Meaning eventually; I would have been placed in the position of choosing Cowboy or my girls today?

 

And I would have chosen my girls.

Especially if CAS had ceased being about fast and fun.

If I am going to "train" for self defense or really "test" my shooting skill sets for accuracy - there are a myriad of BETTER disciplines in which to do so.

 

I shoot CAS not because it lacks challenge.

I shoot CAS because it allows shooters of all experience, age and skill set to navigate the course at their PERSONAL level of challenge.

 

If you're perfect at 30 seconds - do it in 25.

 

If you think the targets are too big - only use the center 3 inches.

 

If the rifle targets are too close - shoot Josey Wales and engage them with pistols.

 

If the shotgun targets are too easy and too close together - use a single shot.

 

If stages are too fast - start with all your guns empty and load on the clock.

 

Find clubs that agree with you; and then volunteer to write stages, set steel and advertise your version of CAS and track your success.

 

Or and this is a last resort - research and find a game that more closely aligns with your idea of challenge.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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I only mention all this because we seem to want to attract shooters from wherever we can including from existing other shooting sports. SASS does have a higher average age of participants. There are shooters from beginners to top level who are also allowed to navigate stages to their ability in other action shooting. 

 

 I have shot SASS, WESTERN 3 GUN, IDPA, USPSA AND ICORE including major matches in all of them.. I still love shooting my cowboy guns with black powder but shoot USPSA primarily now. I'm getting older, fat and slow and when I can't move around as much will deal with that then.

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On 2/8/2021 at 4:45 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Are YOU winning all of your local matches?

Since they are simply "ammo wasters"; I'm assuming you shoot clean EVERY match?


Oh and just because I'm nosy - I checked the scores on Practiscore for the Elston Hombres and was unable to see any Meesterpaul scores.  Please let us know what handle you use for shooting as it's always interesting to see the basis for opinions.

Gee. It seems you're calling me out. 

Well, I'll give you a moment to print out the attached photo so you can practice your marksmanship on it before I meet you in the street as you defend the honor of Ten Round Dumps. (and your Elstonville research) 

 

Btw; Elstonville is a great bunch.  I wish I lived closer. Their Do-Over Shoot is a great concept to view what sort of stages a group favors. They vote on the best stages of the year then combine them in one shoot - and shoot 'em twice. I don't recall any 10 round dumps but I do recall rifle target at the back berms and spread apart pistol targets. Other clubs near there also have interesting stages and a good mix of shooters. Any time I want to get my butt kicked while getting a lesson I could join the speed demons at the  Blue Mountain Rangers and the Welsh Mountain Regulators. 

 

Btw; Your thing about the Nascar course…simplistic … is how fast you go...etc… I raced also. It's been a while though. I did win the 500 miler on 76 Bicentennial on the Bridgehampton road course on my Ducati motorcycle. Fun course. Alternatively, on Charlotte we came off the banking to include a road course section before going back on to the big track. After hitting top speed at the end of the straight and entering the banking I remember resting my left arm on the gas tank while waiting for the banking to end. What a (yawn) thrill. The infield section was good though. Pretty easy to say that made it more interesting. 

To each our own. 

Elstonville.jpg

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4 hours ago, meesterpaul said:

Gee. It seems you're calling me out. 

Well, I'll give you a moment to print out the attached photo so you can practice your marksmanship on it before I meet you in the street as you defend the honor of Ten Round Dumps. (and your Elstonville research) 

Elstonville.jpg

You are correct - I questioned the validity of your comments based on a couple observations.

One - no SASS number while claiming to have shot SASS for two years with no front site.

Two - you mentioned Elston as your example of proper stage setup but when I look to the Elston club; I failed to find your name.

 

Nice to know I was wrong and I'm glad to see you have legitimate basis for your opinions regarding stage setup (many don't and pontificate without the grounds to support their argument) and based on your photograph; you have had some success within the game as well.

 

Congrats on your motorcycle success as well - Ducati was and is a fantastic bike; but is nothing without a skilled pilot.

 

But to clarify a few items - I have never advocated for (or feel the need to defend) stages of 10 round dumps.   

I advocate for a game that is based more on the potential speed and proximity of a gunfight in a old west saloon than on the sniping of ground squirrels at 50 yards.

 

I advocate for a game that sets the bar for successful navigation pretty low to encourage participation (and desire to return) from a wide cross section of shooters - knowing skilled shooters can ALWAYS find ways to elevate and challenge their self.

 

And thank you for your offer, but my marksmanship has really never been an issue for me; so while it is appreciated - your photo is safe from target practice. 

 

I have, however, been a very successful club officer and match director in our game.

With a background of not only what I like and my opinions of what others may like - but years of experience actually tracking the differences in match design, attendance and shooter feedback for different formats.

 

So hopefully we can agree to disagree - as I have no desire to meet you in the street or dig out my paltry few buckles and awards to exchange photos. 

But if memory serves; I do have one of some small insignificant award handy...

What was it again?

Oh that's right - it's called the Wooly Award for match of the year - my match; my stage writing.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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In some areas, SASS is all about speed.  That appears to be the evolution of the game.  We were always timed but accuracy was also important.  With the in your face targets, some folks can miss fast enough to still be in the winner's circle.  If you have the fastest car on the track, you can make all kinds of errors and win.  If everyone runs the same setup, only the ones that are perfect for the entire race can win.  In SASS, not everyone has the resources to have the fastest car.

 

IMO and where SASS and NASCAR are similar, the arms race has gotten out of hand with short strokes.  The original intent of the '73 short stroke was to level the playing field with the Marlin.  Then shorter strokes were allowed to the point where the Marlin's need to be short stroked to keep up.  Now even the handguns are being short stroked.  Where does it end and can it be addressed successfully at this point?

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