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Hopalongcassadice

IAC 1897 Trench gun

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Can anyone tell me what 12 gauge ammunition is safe to use in the IAC 1897 Riot Shotgun? 2 3/4 I believe is what I've read elsewhere. But can it safely handle buckshot? Birshot? Slugs?

 

Thank you!

 

Frank

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2 3/4 vs 3 inch should be stamped on the barrel.

 

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For SASS/CAS, use shot size 7-8 is right.  I don’t know what max length shell the IAC shotguns can handle, but for SASS/CAS, the 2 3/4” Is what most use.  I personally would not shoot a “hi-velocity” round in a Chinese shotgun (who really knows about them?).  But, with a standard velocity round, it should not matter the size shot.  Shot size DOES matter in SASS/CAS competition, though.  

 
 Cat Brules 

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Perfect, I was hoping to see if it could handle 2 3/4 self defense rounds for home defense during these tumultuous times. 

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First, it is not legal for SASS regardless of the ammo used. Second, it should handle any SAAMI spec'd 12 gauge, 2 3/4 inch non magnum round. 

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57 minutes ago, Hopalongcassadice said:

So can buckshot be safely fired from this?

 

Well, since it's a reproduction of the gun that the Army ran buckshot loads in, and since the modern steel is probably better than it was during the Great War, I'd say yes.

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Yes it can and even put slugs through.  Should handle SAAMI spec ammunition.

The early ones had problems but the later cowboy ones got upgraded and probably one of the most reliable of the 97s.

They are legal for most SASS categories and of course for Wild Bunch as well.

 

I have even taken it 3 gun shooting so that is how I know about slugs.

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28 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

Yes it can and even put slugs through.  Should handle SAAMI spec ammunition.

The early ones had problems but the later cowboy ones got upgraded and probably one of the most reliable of the 97s.

They are legal for most SASS categories and of course for Wild Bunch as well.

 

I have even taken it 3 gun shooting so that is how I know about slugs.

It is not SASS legal. He asked specifically about the trench gun, with the ventilated barrel shield. 

 

Page 40, SHB

"The only slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or replica. ...................Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns)."

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The question was what shells can be shot in IAC 97 trench gun, not if SASS legal       GW

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21 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

The question was what shells can be shot in IAC 97 trench gun, not if SASS legal       GW

I and several others answered that question. But this is a new shooter, SASS # 1099**, that is being told erroneously that the gun is SASS legal. I'm merely trying to set the record straight on that front as well.

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2 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

It is not SASS legal. He asked specifically about the trench gun, with the ventilated barrel shield. 

 

Page 40, SHB

"The only slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or replica. ...................Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns)."

Actually my detail oriented friend, he said "riot" in the body of his OP.

Perhaps it would be best to ask for clarification before laying out clarification. 

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".......personally would not shoot a “hi-velocity” round in a Chinese shotgun (who really knows about them?)...." i agree , its safe if imported for what its intended or it would not be allowed but i would not run anything beyond the target loads we shoot - even tho i think it safe for buck shot and slugs , JMHO on this tho , i have no inside info that supports my thinking , 

 

 

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I have a norinco trench that I bought new many years ago. A very solid sg, I wouldn’t be afraid to shoot buck or slugs through it. Other than a shell stop screw [metric] coming loose and falling out and needing replacement I’ve had no big issues. I did chip a screw head when I removed the bayonet mount to put in a 6 rd kit. But the op said riot [20 +- in bbl] gun which is what most of us use not trench. It definitely is a real treat to blast away with 7 rds and a bayonet hung on the end. If I was a german in a trench with nowhere to go I’d be intimidated too. 

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7 hours ago, Hendo said:

Actually my detail oriented friend, he said "riot" in the body of his OP.

Perhaps it would be best to ask for clarification before laying out clarification. 

The title says Trench.

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The IAC shotguns were pressure tested by White Labs in Chicago and went to some insane number that I don't remember off the top of my head but they are safe to shoot any 2 3/4" shell including high brass and mag. The barrels are chrome lined and steel shot will not tear them up as they do in original Winchester 97's. So feel free to shoot buck, slugs, lead, steel and about any other ammo you find. Excellent home defense guns, once you get them smoothed out some.

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1 minute ago, Yul Lose said:

The title says Trench.

Thank you. I guess Mr. Hendo is not too detail oriented. ;)

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Since this site is specifically about SASS and Cowboy Action Shooting, it is perfectly natural and appropriate to let a new shooter know that the IAC 1897 Trench Gun, is not legal for shooting in a SASS-Affiliated match.  If local Match Directors want to make an exception, that's up to them.  But, letting someone know about SASS rules, on the SASS Website is the right thing to do.

 

As for what shells it can handle, any Shotshells that meet SAAMI specifications for 2-3/4" Shotgun Ammunition.  So, basically any 2-3/4" shells from any reputable manufacturer. 

 

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17 hours ago, Hopalongcassadice said:

Can anyone tell me what 12 gauge ammunition is safe to use in the IAC 1897 Riot Shotgun? 2 3/4 I believe is what I've read elsewhere. But can it safely handle buckshot? Birshot? Slugs?

 

Thank you!

 

Frank

 

Hopalong,

Your title of the thread references 'TRENCH' shotgun.

BUT, your actual question references 'RIOT' shotgun.

 

These may be the same but in my limited knowledge of the 1897, I always thought these were 2 separate types of shotguns.

The TRENCH shotgun carries the barrel shield and bayonet lug.

 

There are quiet a few manufacturers have produce the 'RIOT' shotgun without the 'TRENCH' stuff.

 

I don't know about what the TRENCH shotgun will or will not handle safety.

BUT, of the few RIOT shotguns I have handled, they were made to safely handle just about anything you want to shoot in them.

And some of them would also use 3" shells.    I don't know about the TRENCH shotgun.

 

These may very well be the same shotgun with difference name terminology.  But I have heard of them being referenced as

separate type shotguns.

 

EDIT:  I just did a search on GOOGLE.  Basically, they are the same shotgun with exceptions.

I also appears the official TRENCH shotguns were chambered for 2 3/4" and 2 5/8 inch shells.   Not 3' shells.

I have seen RIOT shotguns set up for 3" shells.

To some degree, there is a difference in shell usages.

 

Best regards,

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

The title says Trench.

 

1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Thank you. I guess Mr. Hendo is not too detail oriented. ;)

Yup, sure enuff, the title says "trench". I knew that when I entered the thread. I also read the original post where Hoppy said "Riot". 

Which is why I said...

9 hours ago, Hendo said:

Actually my detail oriented friend, he said "riot" in the body of his OP.

Perhaps it would be best to ask for clarification before laying out clarification. 

12 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 

Yes, the title says "trench", but the text said "riot", so I was merely pointing out that hashing folks and slapping them with chapter and verse with the SHB might be less than helpful if you haven't ascertained what our new pard actually has and can in fact lead him to believe that what he has may not be SASS legal when it might be because someone with a mighty attitude laid down the law.

 

I was just trying to be polite about it, but by all means, please do carry on.

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

 

Yup, sure enuff, the title says "trench". I knew that when I entered the thread. I also read the original post where Hoppy said "Riot". 

Which is why I said...

Yes, the title says "trench", but the text said "riot", so I was merely pointing out that hashing folks and slapping them with chapter and verse with the SHB might be less than helpful if you haven't ascertained what our new pard actually has and can in fact lead him to believe that what he has may not be SASS legal when it might be because someone with a mighty attitude laid down the law.

 

I was just trying to be polite about it, but by all means, please do carry on.

So which one is it? Letting someone know that something they want to use in a match might not be legal isn’t a bad thing, is it? 

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3 hours ago, Outlaw Gambler said:

The IAC shotguns were pressure tested by White Labs in Chicago and went to some insane number that I don't remember off the top of my head but they are safe to shoot any 2 3/4" shell including high brass and mag. The barrels are chrome lined and steel shot will not tear them up as they do in original Winchester 97's. So feel free to shoot buck, slugs, lead, steel and about any other ammo you find. Excellent home defense guns, once you get them smoothed out some.

Just wanted to make sure the definitive answer didn’t get lost in all the “well act-tullly...” round about, bored on the wire debate :)

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I have one of those IAC Winchester 97 Trench Shotguns. I love that thing and would not part with it. It's very well made, and simply awesome with a 1917 bayonet on it. They have a 2 3/4" shell limit, a cylinder bore, and shoot 00 Buck Shot extremely well. I use to shoot 3 Gun many years ago and in the October shoot, last one of the year, we had a stage where we brought along and shot a pumpkin with 4 rounds of buck shot. I used the IAC and what a hoot! Should have seen what that Trench gun did to that pumpkin with 4 rounds of 00. Even though they are not SASS legal we allow the trench shotgun in our local shoots, and I used it in Wild Bunch. Last I heard you couldn't get the IAC Trench Shotgun any longer as they are no longer made. I don't know if that is true or not.

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Hmmm... well the OP dud state his intended use was for home defense.  And his question has been answered to the best of anyone's non-professional  ability.  The "Trench" gun with its heat shield & bayonet lug is NOT SASS cowboy, but is WB legal, advising someone of that IS appropriate.  The civilian or police "riot" fun, sans shield & lug is both SASS cowboy & WB legal.  SAAMI shells should be safe in any shotgun in good repair.  Quit yer bickerin'.  

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I have an IAC Trench Gun that I bought just before they were stopped from importation by the powers that be. Got a front barrel band from Numrich, so can remove the heat shield and use it in regular CAS (without a front sight). It's an excellent gun and meets all SAMMI specs, so any 2-3/4" ammo within specs will work. Mine did not require any smithing and is fine in WB.  A real tool.

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if you need an M1917 bayonet i have one i could part with .............:>} i think they look cool with the pointy bit mounted but again not for SASS 

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My apologies for the mis-labelling. It is in fact a RIOT shotgun not the Trenchgun version. (I bought it for WWII Reenacting and was going to make it a Trench gun). I just wanted some quick advice from folks who own the base gun. Not enough WWII reenactors have these so I didn't want to ask there. I was putting an ammo order in. Thank you all for the help!

 

 

Frank

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sure - thats it , but stay clear of the muzzle - unlike the dogs the bite is worse than the bark , oh and if you hear that racking sound its a good time to hit the deck , 

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