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English Stranger, SASS 42090

I’m an old shooter thinking about new guns, and going to the dark side A.K.A. black power

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So I’m looking at some black power percussion revolver for my main match guns, but I’m so confused.

I tried reading the SASS rules such as

REVOLVER REQUIREMENTS:
Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, (where is that list) and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition.
REVOLVER CALIBERS:
Percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. Also even though 36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets.
Safety & Handling Conventions – Revolvers:
Five-shot revolvers may load five rounds, but the hammer must rest on a dummy chamber or safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap.
I also read  
A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length of four inches or less. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers.

 

Now for my question;
I like both the “1862 Police Revolver” and the "1862 Pocket Navy Revolver.” They both have a 5-shot Cylinder, they are 36 Caliber, and they have 5 ½ inch barrels so they are not pocket pistols by SASS definition. So can I use them for my main match revolvers?

 

P.S. I know everyone like the guns they picked to shoot and there are a 1000 models and reason to pick other guns. I'm picking the ones I pick for a character I'm trying to recreate, and not just use the 45 colt. This is not about the best one to use but if the one I'm thinking is legal to use.

 

 

 

Edited by English Stranger, SASS 42090
clarification

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PLZ-change your font. :huh:

THANK YOU, it's easy to read now....

OLG 

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz
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the nice thing about 6 shot guns is you can take one nipple out and set hammer down on that one, also helps in knowing what hole not to load because you can look through and see the large hole where you removed nipple. I shoot pietta 1851s but you will have to decide for your self. welcome to the DARK SIDE 

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The pocket pistol rules that you quoted are for the pocket pistol side match. Not main match.

 

SHB pg 31

Quote

Pocket  pistols  may  not  be  used as or  converted  to  main  match revolvers. 

 

You can shoot BP pistols with 7 1/2 inch barrels in the main match if you want to.

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

Five-shot  revolvers  may  load  five  rounds,  but  the  hammer  must  rest  on  a  dummy chamber  or  safety  slot/pin  in  the  cylinder  to  avoid  the  hammer  resting  on  a  live round/cap. 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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The Police versions are a small frame revolver and a bit small for me.  Try the 1851's and 1860's for pointing and balance.  I like '51's with 4 3/4" custom cut barrels in the original .36 caliber.  I haven't had a reactive target not go down as long as you hit it towards the top.  88gr .380 ball with 21grs of FFFG.  

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English Stranger,

As far as the legality for main match, the Uberti is a pocket pistol due to its smaller frame, but I'm not sure about the Pietta.  It is different from the Uberti (or original Colts) 1862 but I don't recall why.  If it is made on a larger frame, it might be legal.  Someone who knows more about that will chime in, I'm sure.

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So the answer to your question is simply yes! The 1862 pocket army and navy models are quite legal and acceptable for main match use. Plus who am I to suggest what you might should use? Welcome and enjoy. :D

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8 hours ago, Max Doolin, SASS #53631 said:

Hey Branchwater Jack I think you answer most of your quotes except wheres the SHB Quote for that 7.5" barrel requirement?

 

There is no 7.5" requirement. I was just sayin' you could shoot 'em if you wanted to. 

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Edit, PaleWolf clarified the rule.

Edited by July Smith

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If using C&B's for main match I'd get a cylinder loader and pull the cyl for a wipe down then load and lube before putting it back in the frame. Another shameless plug for '58 Remys no wedge. I shot on average 3 matches a month for close to 2 years using C&B pistols, '99 Norinco SG and a '60 Henry fin times for sure but couldnt have done it without a loading press I used a Tower of Power and still have it. Course that was 16 yrs ago ;^)

 

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15 hours ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

...

Now for my question;

I like both the “1862 Police Revolver” and the "1862 Pocket Navy Revolver.” They both have a 5-shot Cylinder, they are 36 Caliber, and they have 5 ½ inch barrels so they are not pocket pistols by SASS definition.

So can I use them for my main match revolvers?

 

 

YES

...as long as they have a "safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap."

(otherwise, you'll only be allowed to load 4 rounds in them)

There is no "frame size" restriction for main match revolvers.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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ES, I run a pair of '58 Remingtons with Kirst 5-shot conversion cylinders (not into C&B) but they are easy to convert back, if you prefer.

They work great, are very reliable and the cool factor when I pull the cylinders for loading/unloading is awesome!

I run smokeless most of the time but have run BP cartridges through them.  No special loads, just my Trailboss loaded .45 Colts

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Caliber .36 cap guns usually work fine for CAS main matches.  At a major match in strong winds where knockdown handgun targets were set to not get blown over I saw a shooter's .36 caliber revolvers fail to knock over the targets.  My .44 caliber cap guns did the job.  However, that was only once in over ten years I've seen this happen.  I recommend taking three cap guns to a match in case you have a loading error or a part breaks.  That way you can fix the problem after the match.  SliX produces a device called the SliXhand that increases the leverage on short loading levers cap guns.  I have not tried one but expect it would be useful.

 

Welcome to the Darkside!

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42 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Caliber .36 cap guns usually work fine for CAS main matches.  At a major match in strong winds where knockdown handgun targets were set to not get blown over I saw a shooter's .36 caliber revolvers fail to knock over the targets.  My .44 caliber cap guns did the job.  However, that was only once in over ten years I've seen this happen.  I recommend taking three cap guns to a match in case you have a loading error or a part breaks.  That way you can fix the problem after the match.  SliX produces a device called the SliXhand that increases the leverage on short loading levers cap guns.  I have not tried one but expect it would be useful.

 

Welcome to the Darkside!

Carrying 3 C&B revolvers to a match is a good idea, especially at major matches.  I have shot Navy .36's almost exclusively for the last 12-15 years and have not had an occasion where they could not take down a reactive target BUT the bigger, heavier targets are harder to get moving at times.  At a major match, I take along a '51 in .44 caliber as extra insurance if the targets aren't moving easily for the .38 boys. 

 

With my 4.75" barrels, the rammer is short so I use the SliXHand.  I load on the gun with no stand in the time it takes for 2-3 shooters.  It is a great tool but you can bend the rammer if you get over zealous in compressing the powder. 

 

It's also best to get your C&B's prepared for competition by Longhunter or Mike Bracket at Goonsgunworks so you will have years of trouble free shooting.  You can do a lot of smoothing and tweaking yourself if you are handy but these guys make the guns almost bulletproof.

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17 hours ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

So I’m looking at some black power percussion revolver for my main match guns, but I’m so confused.

 

Now for my question;
I like both the “1862 Police Revolver” and the "1862 Pocket Navy Revolver.” They both have a 5-shot Cylinder, they are 36 Caliber, and they have 5 ½ inch barrels so they are not pocket pistols by SASS definition. So can I use them for my main match revolvers?

 

P.S. I know everyone like the guns they picked to shoot and there are a 1000 models and reason to pick other guns. I'm picking the ones I pick for a character I'm trying to recreate, and not just use the 45 colt. This is not about the best one to use but if the one I'm thinking is legal to use.

Welcome to the journey. I'm back to shooting cap guns again and it almost feels like starting sass all over again with that new excitement. I have 4 straight matches with cap guns so far this year and plan to use them exclusively the rest of the year. Who knows, maybe even longer. While I prefer 51's because I was raised on Good, Bad and Ugly, I absolutely love the look of the 62 police with those awesome fluted cylinders. You will want to play with them a bit though. The size is smaller and the lockup is quicker than colts and clones. Once you get used to it, though, you'll be flying with them. I have a friend who's wife carried one concealed from 18-21 before she could carry a pistol legally. She never had a worry about being unprepared.

 

1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Caliber .36 cap guns usually work fine for CAS main matches.  At a major match in strong winds where knockdown handgun targets were set to not get blown over I saw a shooter's .36 caliber revolvers fail to knock over the targets.  My .44 caliber cap guns did the job.  However, that was only once in over ten years I've seen this happen.  I recommend taking three cap guns to a match in case you have a loading error or a part breaks.  That way you can fix the problem after the match.  SliX produces a device called the SliXhand that increases the leverage on short loading levers cap guns.  I have not tried one but expect it would be useful.

 

Welcome to the Darkside!

This is probably more true at local matches, though I haven't been to any really big matches. Almost all the annual matches I have been to the knockdowns are set to fall with the softest 38 mousephart available. I know a guy who shoots 38's so light, in foggy mornings you can actually see the bullets leave the gun and hit the targets. My 36's hit a lot harder than that. The real problem with 36's are spotters who don't fully understand the be sure it's a miss before calling it rule. Pure lead 36's on dead targets with the added smoke gets a lot of called misses that are hits. While I constantly hope spotters get better at calling it, it's a fact that I have to be ok with if shooting my 51's.

36 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Carrying 3 C&B revolvers to a match is a good idea, especially at major matches.  I have shot Navy .36's almost exclusively for the last 12-15 years and have not had an occasion where they could not take down a reactive target BUT the bigger, heavier targets are harder to get moving at times.  At a major match, I take along a '51 in .44 caliber as extra insurance if the targets aren't moving easily for the .38 boys. 

 

With my 4.75" barrels, the rammer is short so I use the SliXHand.  I load on the gun with no stand in the time it takes for 2-3 shooters.  It is a great tool but you can bend the rammer if you get over zealous in compressing the powder. 

 

It's also best to get your C&B's prepared for competition by Longhunter or Mike Bracket at Goonsgunworks so you will have years of trouble free shooting.  You can do a lot of smoothing and tweaking yourself if you are handy but these guys make the guns almost bulletproof.

I can't second that statement enough. I just got one from then with all the work done and wow what a difference it makes. The worst part of shooting cap guns is the struggle that can occur when any number of the known problems pop up. Having guns that work flawlessly goes a long way. There really is nothing better than finishing an entire match shooting cap guns. It is so exhilarating of a feat to pull off. I can imagine that this will only be better if I were to actually shoot it clean, but........well see spotter comment above. 

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

YES

...as long as they have a "safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap."

(otherwise, you'll only be allowed to load 4 rounds in them)

There is no "frame size" restriction for main match revolvers.

 

 

Thank you Sir,

I appreciate your input. I know I picked wimpy main match revolvers. But first I know I'll never win a match or even a category unless they have the "Silver Senior Frontier Cartridge Left Handed Double Duelist"  (Joking)  I am going for style points and just plain fun.

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17 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

Thank you Sir,

I appreciate your input. I know I picked wimpy main match revolvers. But first I know I'll never win a match or even a category unless they have the "Silver Senior Frontier Cartridge Left Handed Double Duelist"  (Joking)  I am going for style points and just plain fun.

As long as they fit your hands, go for it.  Don't skimp on powder or you'll have more than a few misses called on you as EHSM discussed earlier.  I run 21grs of FFFG in my '51's with good results.

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20 hours ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

So I’m looking at some black power percussion revolver for my main match guns, but I’m so confused.

 

 

Just a couple of notes...

I have a small-framed 1862 sitting on my bench in pieces right now.  It has a hammer safety notch, so it can be used with all 5 chambers charged.  However, all the action parts are smaller and more delicate than those on an 1851, 1860, or 1861.  They don't seem to hold up to the punishment we put them through.  A few matches will put more use on them than most shooters of the period ever thought of.  

 

The Pietta version of the 1862 is an 1851 with a different barrel.  They are 6-shot models, and quite a bit more robust than the smaller Uberti version.  The Pietta isn't "historically correct", but it will last a lot longer.

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The limit for size is that main match guns must be of at least .32 caliber... the 1849s are .31 caliber guns, the 1862 are .36, there is no barrel length restriction, outside that it must be a legal, (BATFE rules or State Law) firearm.  There's a few cowfolk shooting cap guns with barrels as short as 3 to 3-½" barrels.  I've shot .36 cal revolvers in CAS since 1986, except for a brief foray into Remington 1858s... what a fiasco.  It "might" have been the particular example I had, but I found it to be exceedingly uncomfortable to shoot, couldn't point instinctively.  Grip and hammer relationship felt totally different for a Colt SAA or 1851 shooter.  If a 38Spl can take down a KD, a properly loaded .36 will also.  While my normal load is a .375 round ball, I have some .380 heeled bullets that run around 100 grains for anything I think will be problematic.

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32 minutes ago, Griff said:

The limit for size is that main match guns must be of at least .32 caliber... the 1849s are .31 caliber guns, ...

Thank you Griff, I think rules say 36~45 caliber for C&B's. I just don't want to get pistols then be told I can't use them.

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40 minutes ago, Griff said:

Remington 1858s... what a fiasco. 

Thems fighten words

 If I was as old and debilitated as you I would call ya out fer a shoot off.

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2 hours ago, Max Doolin, SASS #53631 said:

Thems fighten words

 If I was as old and debilitated as you I would call ya out fer a shoot off.

Just like Fords... I'm glad somebody likes 'em... otherwise folks would drive the price of the really good things out of sight for regular ol' folks like me... :P

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97% of all Fords are still on the Road ,,,,,,, 3% made it home ....

I also Dislike 58 Remmies for anything but slow deliberate fire,,, the reach to the hammer and the odd grip shape , just don't work for Duelist ...

I love the Navy grip frame and have it on my Open-Tops in .44 Russian Long ( .44 spl. ) For cap guns I like 51 Navys with 7 1/2 Barrels ..

 

Jabez Cowboy

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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 11:09 AM, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

      The real problem with 36's are spotters who don't fully understand the be sure it's a miss before calling it rule. Pure lead 36's on dead targets with the added smoke gets a lot of called misses that are hits. While I constantly hope spotters get better at calling it, it's a fact that I have to be ok with if shooting my 51's.

 

 This is a big consideration with BP loads and the main reason I stopped using 32 H&R Mag with black powder.   Did not ring or move the target enough for spotters not doing/understanding their job.  I would get 1 or 2 misses called and knew better. 

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I to had that weird feeling when first shooting a 58 I was used to colts had a pair of 51's maybe my large hands make them more comfortable to shoot. As a note that video is the first time in like 8 years I shot anything gunfighter style.

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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 10:26 AM, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

Thank you Sir,

I appreciate your input. I know I picked wimpy main match revolvers. But first I know I'll never win a match or even a category unless they have the "Silver Senior Frontier Cartridge Left Handed Double Duelist"  (Joking)  I am going for style points and just plain fun.

Harrumph!

 

Another person who is younger than me who claims to be old. :o ;)

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52 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Just joshing you, English Stranger. This came up on an earlier thread and put a bee in my bonnet. ;)

About little pistols? I just need a "clink" not a "CLINK"

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My Open-Tops are Named "Buck" & "Boom" and there may just be a reason for their Names .... 

Make Smoke ,,,,,,,, Lots of it ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Hey Allie Mo ,,,,, I'm a Day Older 

 

Than I was Yesterday !!!!

 

When I finally Collect My promised Hug ,,,,, do I get it with Interest ???

 

Jabez Cowboy 

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