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Kirk James

WTC

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

if you have 10 rifle targets and the instructions are to hit each target once and a shooter double taps one of the targets do you give them a P and a Miss? In that scenario "All" of the rifle targets would not be hit.

 

No.   Follow the miss flow chart.  

 

Were there any misses or rounds not fired?   No, so score no misses.

 

Were targets hit in correct order?   No, the single tap instructions were violated, and one target was double tapped.  So, award the Procedural.

 

Scoring this is easy because there is only one target-type in the rifle sequence - all stationary targets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As an aside, the usual cause of confusion in setting up a stage where the usual one-target-type-shooting-sequence for each gun is replaced with a combination of a reactive target sequence and a stationary target sequence is what happens with the misses (or failures to fall) of some of the reactionary targets, under what condition the shooter might be allowed to make up the reactive target misses, and when in the shooting sequence those makeups are allowed to be fired.    THERE ARE LOTS OF POSSIBILITIES.    To make these perennially hard-to-understand stages (as shown by the MANY WTC arguments over the last few years), it helps if the stage writer will take a little more effort in explaining how to shoot the two difference sequences, AND what is allowed for making up any mistakes.   AND when you get to correct those mistakes and on what targets.  

 

The stage we have been examining is not badly written, but just a little more effort in getting the "recovery" step explained would have helped all the shooters who shot the match.  And especially would have helped the TO and the spotters.

 

Even easier to understand would be to use all reactive targets for gun type, but then that requires (up to) ten reactive targets for that type of gun (rifle in this case).   When you use a mix of reactive and stationary targets, the "break" between the sequence on reactive targets and the sequence on stationary targets is really important.  The stage will be much easier to shoot and score if you don't mix (or allow shooter to mix) the two different sequences together. 

 

Good luck, GJ

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It might have been simpler to reverse the order of engagement:

Alternate 4 shots on the two buffalo targets, then engage the 6 plates.

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We shot one match recently where there were 3 knockdowns on a rack, 2 stationary targets, and another 3-plate rack of knockdowns, all in a row across the bay.  Instructions were shoot a sweep from either end with one shot on each knockdown and double taps on the stationarys.  This was difficult enough for most shooters that considerable discussion ensued, and a few Ps were earned when it was shot.   This is essentially 3 target-type sequences glued together.

 

IF there had been makeup shots allowed for misses on those knockdowns, this stage could have been a real disaster to score.  Or perhaps "shoot targets in any order", make up KD misses with reloads at any time with extra shots on the stationary targets.   :o

 

Good luck, GJ

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15 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

 

The stage will be much easier to shoot and score if you don't mix (or allow shooter to mix) the two different sequences together. 

 

Good luck, GJ

Yes, much easier to shoot and score, but unfortunately it does add to the "flavor" of the stage to mix the target types, and that is ill-advised due to scenarios such as this. 

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Most of the KD + stationary target arrays I've encountered allow however many rounds needed to KD the plates, with any remaining rounds designated for the stationary target(s).

I can understand how a shooter who runs into a variation such as the OP might reengage a KD during the sequence (even when instructed to only engage the KDs once each)...which is the basis for my opinion posted earlier regarding the make-up SG shot for the KD miss; even though the stage only specified doing so for a standing KD. 

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Yes, instructions that deviate from the normal way and time to handle makeup shots are often a cause of problems.   Folks don't shoot makeup shots the "standard" way very often (remaining shots go on one or more stationary targets), and they may NEVER have tried to shoot with the unusual approach that was set up "differently"  Be careful with what you write for stage instructions.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Also interested in the final call.  It's not clear from the thread.  Is it a miss and P or only the P?  

My call would be miss and P.  The shotgun on bell is mute, instructions are clear, makeup on standing KD, Not makeup on Misses.  No KDs standing, miss is on S2.

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8 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

At what point was the P earned?

When the 5th plate was hit with the 6th shot.

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10 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

When the 5th plate was hit with the 6th shot.

Where does it specify in the shooting instructions the order at which the plates on the rack were to be engaged, other than the rack had to be engaged with the first 6 rounds?

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

I feel like I'm watching Matlock

I think we're in Barnaby Jones territory now, Pard.

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Actually, its more like another chapter in..... "As The Stomach Turns".

 

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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While y'all try and figure out where it specifies the order at which the plates on the rack were to be engaged, let's look at the following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy)

(ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _X_X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) ___X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding)_____X_X___X_ 

 

Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses the rack

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate.

(ding) _____X_______

 

Leaving one plate on the rack at this point.

 

Where, following the stage instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack", did they earn a P when shooting it in that manner up to and including the 6th shot? 

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As stated much earlier in this thread, the 7th shot earned the P per the written stage instructions when it HIT a plate on the rack.  The 7th round was to be shot on/at the buffaloes, therefore it was a hit on an incorrect target. 

Up to that point, the missed plate was just a miss.  Regardless of what target the shooter was aiming at, you cannot assign intent to the shot that missed or the one following it, as there was no order specified on the plate rack. 

There was a miss in 6 shots fired at the plate rack, so the make-up shot was confusing, but technically not any different than "shooting where it was" had the errant 7th shot hit a shotgun knockdown.  The shooter was making up a target that was hit and knocked down by a shot that should have been fired at a different target.

You can also avoid a lot of this by having make-ups be fired at the target that was missed, as that's pretty tough to misunderstand.  Every time I've shot a stage where make-ups are fired on anything other than the target that was missed it results in lots of confusion. 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I feel like I'm watching Matlock

 

More like Laugh In with the windows that pop open.....Trying to figure out who's impersonating Goldie Hawn.

 

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18 hours ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

Hey PaleWolf,

I wrote the stage. The shooter was instructed to engage the bell incorrectly by the TO, I was not on that posse. He was given bad instruction by the TO, there was no need to engage the bell! I understand he was given a re-shoot for that reason. My call was “P” & miss. Missed shots on the stationary targets are designated as misses in the stage instructions.

 

TB

 

On 2/9/2020 at 9:28 PM, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

The instructions were engage the 6 cowboys with 6 rounds, if the shooter fired 7 rounds at the 6 cowboys, that’s a P, and a miss for not engaging the Buffalos with 4 rounds.

 

TB

 

On 2/10/2020 at 9:42 AM, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

Kingsnake,

 

Thanks for posting the actual stage instructions. As one can see the instructions were clear, engage the 6 plates on the rack with 6 rounds, then alternate for 4 rounds on the Buffalos. Shooter chose to re-engage the 5 plate after missing it, hence firing 7 rounds a the 6 plates, that's a P for not following stage instructions, that left him or her only 3 rounds left to fire at the Buffalos so hence the Miss. The shooter had an opportunity to make up the 5th plate they missed while engaging the plate rack by engaging the bell with the shotgun. They chose to shoot re-engage the 5 plate, "P"

 

Can't be any clearer!

 

TB

 

13 minutes ago, Crisco said:

As stated much earlier in this thread, the 7th shot earned the P per the written stage instructions when it HIT a plate on the rack.  The 7th round was to be shot on/at the buffaloes, therefore it was a hit on an incorrect target. 

Up to that point, the missed plate was just a miss.  Regardless of what target the shooter was aiming at, you cannot assign intent to the shot that missed or the one following it, as there was no order specified on the plate rack. 

There was a miss in 6 shots fired at the plate rack, so the make-up shot was confusing, but technically not any different than "shooting where it was" had the errant 7th shot hit a shotgun knockdown.  The shooter was making up a target that was hit and knocked down by a shot that should have been fired at a different target.

You can also avoid a lot of this by having make-ups be fired at the target that was missed, as that's pretty tough to misunderstand.  Every time I've shot a stage where make-ups are fired on anything other than the target that was missed it results in lots of confusion. 

 

@Crisco...

 

You say that they earned the P on the 7th shot  - i.e. there were no Ps committed in the first six shots, however the guy who wrote the stage indicated that the P was earned when 'Shooter chose to re-engage the 5 plate after missing it...They chose to shoot re-engage the 5 plate, "P"'  i.e. the stage writer indicated that they earned the P on the 6th shot.

 

For @Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 and others who specify that the shooter got the P on the 6th shot, consider this new scenario following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy)

(ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 1

(ding) ___X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 2

(ding) _____X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 3

(ding)_______X_X_X_ 

 

Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 4

(ding) _________X_X_ 

 

Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses plate 5

(ding) _________X_X_ 

 

Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 5

(ding) ___________X_

 

and a gust of wind, a shimmy in the rack, an act of the almighty himself causes the last plate to fall

 

(ding) _____________ 

 

Leaving a clean rack at this point.

 

Is there a P in these first 6 shots? Is there a miss in there since only 5 of the plates were hit?

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Yes, the author says the shooter earned the P when he reengaged a missed target in mid-string.

The stage instructions do not specify an order of engagement, therefore you cannot say what target was being aimed at, only whether a target was hit or missed.  Intent cannot be assessed nor scored.

Had the instructions specified a sweep, I would agree with the author, but I believe he is stuck with what he wrote, not what he meant.

And to answer your specific question, if 6 plates are down with 6 shots, shooter wins.

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I still don't know what the "correct answer" is at this point.  Palewolf hinted at it, but.

 

Or are our rules so convoluted now that nearly all of us cannot tell?

 

I sure long for the days when a miss was a miss and P was a P -  but they "fixed" that in about 2002.

 

We have added several definitions, a flow chart, several revisions to the flow chart and still never recovered.

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I'm standing ground on a when that 7th round went downrange at the KD (regardless of order).

I'm less firm on the M, seeing how buffalo 4 wasn't engaged. 

I'm still learning, though.

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47 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I still don't know what the "correct answer" is at this point.  Palewolf hinted at it, but.

 

Or are our rules so convoluted now that nearly all of us cannot tell?

 

I sure long for the days when a miss was a miss and P was a P -  but they "fixed" that in about 2002.

 

We have added several definitions, a flow chart, several revisions to the flow chart and still never recovered.

AGREED!

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

 

 

@Crisco...

 

You say that they earned the P on the 7th shot  - i.e. there were no Ps committed in the first six shots, however the guy who wrote the stage indicated that the P was earned when 'Shooter chose to re-engage the 5 plate after missing it...They chose to shoot re-engage the 5 plate, "P"'  i.e. the stage writer indicated that they earned the P on the 6th shot.

 

For @Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 and others who specify that the shooter got the P on the 6th shot, consider this new scenario following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy)

(ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 1

(ding) ___X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 2

(ding) _____X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 3

(ding)_______X_X_X_ 

 

Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 4

(ding) _________X_X_ 

 

Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses plate 5

(ding) _________X_X_ 

 

Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 5

(ding) ___________X_

 

and a gust of wind, a shimmy in the rack, an act of the almighty himself causes the last plate to fall

 

(ding) _____________ 

 

Leaving a clean rack at this point.

 

Is there a P in these first 6 shots? Is there a miss in there since only 5 of the plates were hit?

No P and No Miss for your scenario. 6 shots at 6 plates, no plates standing.  Very typical occurance when shooting plate racks.  Depending on how the stage instructions are written, round count or knock down the targets.  2 shots can take down 6 targets, the remaining still need to be fired according to the instructions.

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Example 1

If the shooter had shot the string correctly only missing target 5 and then using the shotgun to make up the missed target.

That would mean 9 rifle targets were hit and 1 shotgun makeup target was hit

 

Example 2

The shooter misses target 5 and re-engages it contrary to the stage instructions and  finishes the string as correctly as possible considering he P'd and then uses the shotgun to make up the missed knockdown target even though it was knocked down.

That would mean the 9 rifle targets were hit (in the incorrect order) and 1 shotgun makeup target was hit. 

 

In both examples the number of rifle targets hit were the same and the number of shotgun makeups were the same. Just because the shooter shot the targets in the incorrect order doesn't mean they are no longer rifle targets and doesn't mean they shouldn't count as hits. 

 

Example 1 = Clean

Example 2 = Procedural

 

Stan

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It must be a P, two misses, another P, then a SDQ, or maybe it was SOG.

 

Seriously, so I was wrong, it's a P only?

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2 hours ago, Crisco said:

As stated much earlier in this thread, the 7th shot earned the P per the written stage instructions when it HIT a plate on the rack.  The 7th round was to be shot on/at the buffaloes, therefore it was a hit on an incorrect target. 

Up to that point, the missed plate was just a miss.  Regardless of what target the shooter was aiming at, you cannot assign intent to the shot that missed or the one following it, as there was no order specified on the plate rack. 

There was a miss in 6 shots fired at the plate rack, so the make-up shot was confusing, but technically not any different than "shooting where it was" had the errant 7th shot hit a shotgun knockdown.  The shooter was making up a target that was hit and knocked down by a shot that should have been fired at a different target.

You can also avoid a lot of this by having make-ups be fired at the target that was missed, as that's pretty tough to misunderstand.  Every time I've shot a stage where make-ups are fired on anything other than the target that was missed it results in lots of confusion. 

 

1 minute ago, KH24 said:

No P and No Miss for your scenario. 6 shots at 6 plates, no plates standing.  Very typical occurance when shooting plate racks.  Depending on how the stage instructions are written, round count or knock down the targets.  2 shots can take down 6 targets, the remaining still need to be fired according to the instructions.

 

Great. So, let's get back to the OP.

 

let's look at the following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy)

(ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _X_X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) ___X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding)_____X_X___X_ 

 

Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses the rack

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate.

(ding) ___________X_

 

Leaving one plate on the rack at this point with 4 more shots to go.

 

Now, let us look at the rest of the instructions..."Then, alternate on the 2 buffalos for and (sic) additional 4 rounds."

 

So, we have the following setup:

 

(ding) ___________X_   [buffalo]  [buffalo]

 

Shot 7 must now hit either of the two buffalo targets. Shooter misses both buffalo targets but the round hits and knocks down the remaining plate.

 

(ding) _____________   [buffalo]  [buffalo] 

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct type target, i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo? 

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct target that the round should have hit given the stage instructions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It must be a P, two misses, another P, then a SDQ, or maybe it was SOG.

 

Seriously, so I was wrong, it's a P only?

 

You forgot the minor safety!  :D

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4 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

You forgot the minor safety!  :D

Oh you think that's funny to joke about safety? Well you just earned yourself a spirit of the game penalty mister!

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Great. So, let's get back to the OP.

 

let's look at the following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy)

(ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _X_X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) ___X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding)_____X_X___X_ 

 

Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses the rack

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate.

(ding) ___________X_

 

Leaving one plate on the rack at this point with 4 more shots to go.

 

Now, let us look at the rest of the instructions..."Then, alternate on the 2 buffalos for and (sic) additional 4 rounds."

 

So, we have the following setup:

 

(ding) ___________X_   [buffalo]  [buffalo]

 

Shot 7 must now hit either of the two buffalo targets. Shooter misses both buffalo targets but the round hits and knocks down the remaining plate.

 

(ding) _____________   [buffalo]  [buffalo] 

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct type target, i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo?   YES

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct target that the round should have hit given the stage instructions?  No

 

 

Are you basically making the case if shooter shoots 10 rounds, misses one, and is out of order its only P because he made up the miss with the shotgun? 

This is were I disagree - If the instruction said make up any misses with the shotgun on the bell - yes - only a P.  But instructions said make up any standing KD targets  with shotgun.  There are no standing targets - hence no make up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Yes, much easier to shoot and score, but unfortunately it does add to the "flavor" of the stage to mix the target types, and that is ill-advised due to scenarios such as this. 

My limited experience is that including miss make-ups almost always creates some confusion and difficulties for TOs, spotters and scorekeeping.  I like it simpler -- a miss is  a miss.  Just focus and hit the targets the first time, or take your lumps.   JMHO. 

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It might be that the plate rack targets are not always set the same as what it takes to knock them down.  This will get us another two pages. LOL   I have shot many matches where the the plate rack or knockdown misses shot with a rifle or pistol can be made up with the shotgun on a separate target.  Some even make you carry the shotgun with you so you can make up misses with your pistol or rifle if you do not knock them down at the next position.  I have learned to enjoy matches with these options.  Again, the stage was written so everyone but one shooter shot it correctly.  There were no questions I can remember after the stage was read from our squad.  The discussion with the posse after the stage was:  can a procedural cause a miss and was it an advantage to shoot the shotgun for the missed target as directed by the TO.  There was as many opinions, well not as many as the responses on this post, so we gave the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.    

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3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Great. So, let's get back to the OP.

 

let's look at the following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy)

(ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_

 

Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _X_X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) ___X_X_X___X_

 

Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding)_____X_X___X_ 

 

Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses the rack

(ding) _____X_____X_ 

 

Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate.

(ding) ___________X_

 

Leaving one plate on the rack at this point with 4 more shots to go.

 

Now, let us look at the rest of the instructions..."Then, alternate on the 2 buffalos for and (sic) additional 4 rounds."

 

So, we have the following setup:

 

(ding) ___________X_   [buffalo]  [buffalo]

 

Shot 7 must now hit either of the two buffalo targets. Shooter misses both buffalo targets but the round hits and knocks down the remaining plate.

 

(ding) _____________   [buffalo]  [buffalo] 

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct type target, i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo? 

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct target that the round should have hit given the stage instructions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know how to do the fancy ink color. My monitor is only black and white, but...

---Did the 7th round hit the correct type target i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo?---

I would say, technically no. Since if we had 5 circle targets and 5 square targets and the instructions said put 5 rounds on circles and THEN 5 rounds on square targets and a shooter did 4 rounds on circle and then 5 rounds on square targets he'd get a P because the 5th round hit a square instead of a circle.

 

Now. Notice that was 9 rounds fired. He still has a 10th round. If he puts it in the dirt, it's a miss. If he puts it on the first set of targets, it's out of order but he cant get another P cause he already has one. I BELIEVE HEREIN LIES THE QUESTION: since that 10th round is designated a circle target, does it matter where he puts it other than on a circle target? I believe it does. If he puts it on the designated 10th round target, he does not get a miss. By putting it on a square target, he has just hit a target that was not the correct type. 

 

SO, all that to get to this super duper million dollar question: According to the miss/flow chart when STAGE instructions break up rifle or pistol target TYPES, does that mean you answer the question "did the round hit the correct target TYPE?" 

 

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5 hours ago, Crisco said:

Yes, the author says the shooter earned the P when he reengaged a missed target in mid-string.

The stage instructions do not specify an order of engagement, therefore you cannot say what target was being aimed at, only whether a target was hit or missed.  Intent cannot be assessed nor scored.

Had the instructions specified a sweep, I would agree with the author, but I believe he is stuck with what he wrote, not what he meant.

And to answer your specific question, if 6 plates are down with 6 shots, shooter wins.

Sir you are incorrect, the specific stage instructions state engage the plates on the rack with 6 rounds THEN, alternate with 4 rounds on the the 2 buffalos.

TB

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6 hours ago, Crisco said:

Yes, the author says the shooter earned the P when he reengaged a missed target in mid-string.

The stage instructions do not specify an order of engagement, therefore you cannot say what target was being aimed at, only whether a target was hit or missed.  Intent cannot be assessed nor scored.

Had the instructions specified a sweep, I would agree with the author, but I believe he is stuck with what he wrote, not what he meant.

And to answer your specific question, if 6 plates are down with 6 shots, shooter wins.

A "P" was earned when the shooter fired 7 rounds at the plate rack as the stage instruction clearly state 6 rounds on the plates, if 2 plates should fall by a gust of wind or act of God, or the adjacent shot, the shooter still has to fire 6 rounds, not 5 or 7, 6.

 

TB

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