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Kirk James

Spotting

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In the 10 years I’ve been playing CAS, I’ve seen it change to Shooters Choice where you don’t know what target the shooters starting on or whether the shooter is going cw or ccw. Also lots of shooters putting out 24 rounds in 15 seconds or less. Spotting has become very difficult. I don’t like spotting or timing anymore. I have become a brass picker.   If you really want all your hits we’ll need to paint after every shooter or go to paper.  JMHO

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1 hour ago, KingSnake said:

In the 10 years I’ve been playing CAS, I’ve seen it change to Shooters Choice where you don’t know what target the shooters starting on or whether the shooter is going cw or ccw.

 

I agree.  Every once in awhile there will be a stage that is something like: 10 targets (scattered out in front of you), with revolvers & rifle put 2 shots on each target, no order.  That is a spotters nightmare.  You have no idea where to look.  And if they are shooting a heavy load of BP, more difficult.  Very hard to give an honest accounting.

 

BS

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17 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

 

I agree.  Every once in awhile there will be a stage that is something like: 10 targets (scattered out in front of you), with revolvers & rifle put 2 shots on each target, no order.  That is a spotters nightmare.  You have no idea where to look.  And if they are shooting a heavy load of BP, more difficult.  Very hard to give an honest accounting.

 

BS

You are right. 

The better shooters really like having choices, where they can plan their game to max advantage.  That's one of the things that makes our game so interesting.  But having choices carries the liability that confused spotters may call misses that simply did not occur.   That's always frustrating.  

 

One way to help assure against that is to tell them how you intend to shoot the stage: "I'm going right to left" or "I'm shooting pistol, SG, pistol." or whatever. 

 

But unless we go to electronics or other methods of tracking hits (and even then), we can never get away from human error in spotting that will at times change match outcomes.   It's part of the game. 

 

Becoming an expert spotter and developing that reputation should be thought of as just another part of our sport's challenge.  Instructive aids providing good spotter guidance could be just as useful as existing videos on shooting, clearing jambs, transitions, etc.  

Just thoughts. 

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Here you go, this will solve the spotting problem.... it might take a while to get the posse through the stage, but it WILL solve the spotting problem.

10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun. 24 fall-over targets. Instructions: knock all targets down. Reloads on any gun acceptable. 

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The all-knockdowns, any order, is indeed a solution to spotting.   

 

At the cost of: 

More expensive targets

More target failures

Resetting targets takes individual bay berming or rope pull or automatic equipment to do target resets

 

Money, money, money.   No one in the game really wants matches to be even more expensive.

 

12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

we can never get away from human error in spotting

 

While it may literally be true that we can't get to perfect, we can certainly, through instruction, practical training, or sifting out unqualified shooters from doing spotting at big matches, get to the point where most shooters are satisfied they got a fair shake.   Just because you can't make something PERFECT does not remove the benefits of making that thing VERY GOOD.  

 

Good luck, GJ

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For those who have experienced a wide variety of ranges, Palo Verde brings up a good point about what is behind the targets.  If it is a mix of grass, weeds and branches, it is much more difficult to see where the bullet went if it missed.  You will not be able to go by any dirt flying.  Then add being in the shade and spotting is much more difficult to do properly.

 

As many have mentioned, having a nice dusty back stop is a great aid for spotting (except when you have an edger). 

 

So some extra guidance may be helpful for those shaded targets with a nice green leafy background.

 

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A video, won't ever get done. Too big a task.

A manual, we have RO1 &2 handbooks that people don't bother to read.

 

So how about we take the the top 20 or so comments from this and create a bullet outline that clubs can use. They can give ot to new shooters and review it with the club occasionally at the shooters meeting.

1, Safety first - you are a safety marshal both on and off the line. Watch the 170, cocked guns, live rounds or round count.

2. Place yourself where you can see the targets clearly. Never depend on the "CLANG" to determine if it's a hit.

3. If you think it's a hit it's a hit. When in any doubt it's a hit.

4. Read the Shooters Handbooks. Be aware of the rules that affect scoring, safeties and DQ's.

 

etc.
Ike

 

 

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The all-knockdowns, any order, is indeed a solution to spotting.   

 

At the cost of: 

More expensive targets

More target failures

Resetting targets takes individual bay berming or rope pull or automatic equipment to do target resets

 

Money, money, money.   No one in the game really wants matches to be even more expensive.

 

 

While it may literally be true that we can't get to perfect, we can certainly, through instruction, practical training, or sifting out unqualified shooters from doing spotting at big matches, get to the point where most shooters are satisfied they got a fair shake.   Just because you can't make something PERFECT does not remove the benefits of making that thing VERY GOOD.  

 

Good luck, GJ

I do like your ideas - - and appreciate your attitude.  

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So, who do YOU think should be responsible to finance and create a Spotter Video and a companion Spotter Manual?  

 

Keep in mind that such an effort is a project and a production, and begins with an outline.   It is not a one-man job, nor is it a 2-week effort.

 

Cat Brules

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Howdy :

I have taken to telling the Spotters and TO just how I will shoot the Targets when I have a Choice ....  I shoot FCD  with full Case loads in .38-40 , 44spl. or .45 Colt ...

I have also informed Spotters that the Bang and Clang Will BE REAL CLOSE together , in fact my 66 Sporting rifle runs those 180 gain bullets out at 1,200 FPS ... 

And Don't stand in a bunch behind me in the thick of the smoke .... I often shift position to see threw my smoke as allowed ....

And if you subscribe to "You must SEE a miss" or it's a hit .... Please spot for me ,,,, every match will be shot Clean ....  <_<

The best spotters I have seen move at least their head to better view each target being engaged .... Do Not be afraid to move to see better ...

 

And a word to TOs please don't crowd me ,,, I shoot 7 1/2 inch barreled Open-tops pulled from straight hang holsters , and often a 30 barreled shotgun ....When shooting through Windows and around props this is Critical .....  And Believe me the timer Does Not need to be close to pick-up the report of My guns ... 

 

Above All let's give every one a fair shake us REAL powder shooters seem to pick-up more than our fair number of misses ....

And We as a Whole invest as Much or More in playing this game as anyone else ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Howdy

 

If I know a shooter is very fast, I will stand down and not spot for him. I just can't keep up with some of these guys.

 

I always try to stand where I can see the targets clearly. Sometimes difficult with my fellow Black Powder shooters.

 

And if I don't see it miss, or am not sure, I will stand my ground and call it a hit. A lot of guys say I am too lenient and give credit where it is not deserved, but if my poor old eyes are not sure it was a hit, I will call it a hit.

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CAS is supposed to be for all, not a few very fast shooters, and allowing shooters to pick their own shooting sequence or start direction, or etc., makes spotting more difficult.  

 

And, allowing a shooter to decide who will spot for him or her should certainly not be permitted.  

 

I also think that as a whole, spotters do a good job, and that it’s a thankless job.  At the same time, I know that mistakes are made AND that a talented shooter can outshoot many spotters’ ability to keep up with them.   I believe that factor is part of the game and the rules cover that, whether it works to one’s advantage or disadvantage.

 

A Spotters’ Video and a Spotters’ Guide would be useful, but at least a Spotters’ Guide should be created as a means to assist spotters in what seems to have always been an informal process.  Such an imagined Guide should be, however, created from an evolved,, organized outline.  I wouldn’t try to formalize it as rules, but provide uniform direction and support.    ......Just a few thoughts.

 

Cat Brules 

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57 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

CAS is supposed to be for all, not a few very fast shooters, and allowing shooters to pick their own shooting sequence or start direction, or etc., makes spotting more difficult.  

 

And, allowing a shooter to decide who will spot for him or her should certainly not be permitted.  

 

I also think that as a whole, spotters do a good job, and that it’s a thankless job.  At the same time, I know that mistakes are made AND that a talented shooter can outshoot many spotters’ ability to keep up with them.   I believe that factor is part of the game and the rules cover that, whether it works to one’s advantage or disadvantage.

 

A Spotters’ Video and a Spotters’ Guide would be useful, but at least a Spotters’ Guide should be created as a means to assist spotters in what seems to have always been an informal process.  Such an imagined Guide should be, however, created from an evolved,, organized outline.  I wouldn’t try to formalize it as rules, but provide uniform direction and support.    ......Just a few thoughts.

 

Cat Brules 

So no more shooter's choice stages because it's too difficult for the spotters?  No more round count stages?  Sounds boring to me.  If you can't keep up, then don't spot.

 

I don't think a shooter should be able to choose who will spot for them, but I do think a shooter has every right to say they don't want a particular spotter or for that matter TO.  I've done it on more than one occasion.  Not too long ago, major match, one spotter called me for a P on the very first stage.  He couldn't really articulate why he thought I had a P, but he called it.  A couple of stages later he called another one.  The TO said, NO, there was no P, so the spotter said "OK, then it was a miss."  He was overruled by the other two spottes and the TO.  I'm sure the fact that he was shooting in my category had nothing to do with it. <_<

 

I talked to the PM and we agreed that he would not spot for me anymore, and if I have anything to say about it he'll never spot for me again.  If the TO had said no, I would have started coming to the LT right behind that shooter to ensure he couldn't spot for me.


The same with TO's.  Not too long ago we had a gentleman running the timer who had no business doing so.  It's widely known that he detests gamers, which he defines as anyone who is trying to shoot fast.  When he gets a fast shooter he will ALWAYS give a standby and start the timer immediately while the echo of standby is still in your ears...standbybeep.  Same deal there.  I went to the PM and said I didn't want him timing for me anymore and the PM made it happen.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So no more shooter's choice stages because it's too difficult for the spotters?  No more round count stages?  Sounds boring to me.  If you can't keep up, then don't spot.

 

I don't think a shooter should be able to choose who will spot for them, but I do think a shooter has every right to say they don't want a particular spotter or for that matter TO.  I've done it on more than one occasion.  Not too long ago, major match, one spotter called me for a P on the very first stage.  He couldn't really articulate why he thought I had a P, but he called it.  A couple of stages later he called another one.  The TO said, NO, there was no P, so the spotter said "OK, then it was a miss."  He was overruled by the other two spottes and the TO.  I'm sure the fact that he was shooting in my category had nothing to do with it. <_<

 

I talked to the PM and we agreed that he would not spot for me anymore, and if I have anything to say about it he'll never spot for me again.  If the TO had said no, I would have started coming to the LT right behind that shooter to ensure he couldn't spot for me.


The same with TO's.  Not too long ago we had a gentleman running the timer who had no business doing so.  It's widely known that he detests gamers, which he defines as anyone who is trying to shoot fast.  When he gets a fast shooter he will ALWAYS give a standby and start the timer immediately while the echo of standby is still in your ears...standbybeep.  Same deal there.  I went to the PM and said I didn't want him timing for me anymore and the PM made it happen.

 

I believe the important thing for you to learn from these two scenarios is that you need to slow down and make the spotters/TO's job less stressful.

 

 

Dang Gamers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get off the lawn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{disclaimer}

I'm kidding y'all.

{/disclaimer}

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24 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Yeah, dial it back a notch, would ya? :P

Nope!  I think you should dial it up a notch! :o

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48 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

See the scores from Saturday? I'm comin' for ya... :lol:

I'm looking over my shoulder!!!:ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

  If the TO had said no, I would have started coming to the LT right behind that shooter to ensure he couldn't spot for me.


The same with TO's.  

This is the answer to this threads lamenting poor spotting.  You create your own reality.............  The OP video solution may be too high tech for the age group of the shooters I shoot with.

Fordyce

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8 minutes ago, Fordyce Beals said:

This is the answer to this threads lamenting poor spotting.  You create your own reality.............  The OP video solution may be too high tech for the age group of the shooters I shoot with.

Fordyce

So you're saying it should be on 8mm film with an old High School projector?  :ph34r:

 

 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on....

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I know, let's get rid of the spotters and work off the honor system. At the conclusion of the stage the TO will simply state the time and ask the shooter how many misses.

 

Actually let's throw out the rule book too.

 

New rules:

1. Don't point your gun(s) at anyone.

2. Have fun.

 

I actually am serious.

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2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I know, let's get rid of the spotters and work off the honor system. At the conclusion of the stage the TO will simply state the time and ask the shooter how many misses.

 

Actually let's throw out the rule book too.

 

You don't need SASS or member approval to shoot casually.   Have at it. :P

 

But when your group start competing, the nasty little problem of making the competition fair stampedes in with the second shooter of the day.

 

Good luck, GJ

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2 hours ago, Fordyce Beals said:

This is the answer to this threads lamenting poor spotting.  You create your own reality.

 

Avoiding the poor spotters (or even worse, the dishonest spotters) may work for one or two shooters on a posse who know what may happen, but it falls apart when ALL the shooters don't want to shoot if Ferd is spotting.   And the ones who do shoot during his tenure on the line, don't get a fair chance to do their best.   It becomes a crap shoot rather than an even competition based on skill.  Been there, done that, got no award for it. 

 

Good luck,  GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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36 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Avoiding the poor spotters (or even worse, the dishonest spotters) may work for one or two shooters on a posse who know what may happen, but it falls apart when ALL the shooters don't want to shoot if Ferd is spotting.   And the ones who do shoot during his tenure on the line, don't get a fair chance to do their best.   It becomes a crap shoot rather than an even competition based on skill.  Been there, done that, got no award for it. 

 

Good luck,  GJ

 

 

Then keep Ferd from spotting.  When I was MD I banned one shooter from running the timer or offering opinions about the rules due to his abusiveness.

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You get a "P", and you get a "P", and you get a "P"......everyone gets a "P" !

we need Opra to help grow the ranks of new shooters ! Just kidding

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i would emphasize the need to get a good position to see whats happening as well as hear it , without impeading the shooter/timer and without getting past the shooting line - each spotter needs their own field of view as noted above each vantage point allows another perspective of observation , its only fair to every shooter to do your best but as noted above - i think is a hit 

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