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Dee Mak Jack, SASS #55905

Black powder rust

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I shot some BP substitute in my Marlin 94 and didn't clean it as soon as I should have and parts inside the receiver got rusty.  Cleaned them good and oiled them.  After some time with no use I checked the rifle and the rust was back.  Is there something I can do to prevent the rust from returning?  Never had this problem with real BP

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If the sub was Pyrodex, stop using it.  I left a shotgun uncleaned with Triple Seven once for six months with no rust.  Never a hint of rust on my wife's guns after shooting APP.   We never see rust with MZ either.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
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Keep cleaning it, usually took me 3-4 cleanings to get rid of the residue left by Pyrodex.

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And make sure you use some form of gun oil/preservative when you're finished cleaning. 

 

BS

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Check the barrel again, too.

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At this point we have to conclude that previous cleaning did not remove all the fouling residue.  The oil has trapped some bad stuff onto the steel.  I think you need to disassemble enough to get all parts scrubbed with  soapy water, perhaps use aerosol brake cleaner in those areas you can’t scrub, and then re- lube.

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Avoid using hydrocarbon-based  cleaners and lubricants in weapons that you shoot black powder or black powder substitutes in.  The combination, when burned, causes a hard to remove sticky residue that will often clog up your weapon and also cause rust.

 

Cat Brules

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Windex with vinegar will clean it.

Take the stock off and flush it. Then blow it out with compressed air and then use your spray lube of choice, and blow it out.

Let it sit on your with the  bench muzzle up overnight. Wipe off the rec'r area and re-install the stock.

Use a patch soaked with Windex and swab the bore out, then dry and oil.

OLG

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48 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Windex with vinegar will clean it.

Take the stock off and flush it. Then blow it out with compressed air and then use your spray lube of choice, and blow it out.

Let it sit on your with the  bench muzzle up overnight. Wipe off the rec'r area and re-install the stock.

Use a patch soaked with Windex and swab the bore out, then dry and oil.

OLG

This is what I used to clean the Merwin Hulbert the second time.  The first I noted the next day a tiny bit of rust forming in the cylinder so guess I did not get it all out. 

OLG gave me this same idea and it worked perfect and then made sure a good oil and swabbed down and voila!  No more rust and I check it peridocially.

 

BTW after a good clean and some lube that 1880's made revolver seems as slick as some of the tuned newer stuff.  The suction is now so good that I thought something was wrong when taking it down but the vacuum was just that high.  Sure wish someone would make a replica of the things as neat gun.

 

 

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Is there something I can do to prevent the rust from returning? 

* Mix up a solution of 50:50 mix of Acetone & ATF

* Spray the mix on the rust and let set for 15 minutes

* Rub the rusted areas with bronze wool

.... You'll wonder where the rust went ... GONE and never to return

 

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Have you tried Kroil after the rust is gone?

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Have you tried Kroil after the rust is gone?

No need to ... half of the mix is ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) and if Marvel Mystery Oil is used in the mix ... both fluids serve the same lubing as Kroil, even better 

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2 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

Have you tried Kroil after the rust is gone?

 

Kroil is a penetrate and not a preservative oil.

You really want Eezox for a preservative oil. ;)

OLG

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15 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You really want Eezox for a preservative oil. 

 There's probably 20 oils that are great for future rust prevention.   Boeshield T-9 is another that is quite good about staying put on the area applied and not attracting dust.   RemOil is a commonly used gun oil, but it lacks stay-put power.   Any rust-resisting wheel bearing grease will stay put and really prevent rust - apply very thinly and remove from bore before next range/field outing.

 

But - Kroil is NOT going to stay put and prevent future problems.

 

BTW - throw that can of Pyrodex on the lawn.   It's REALLY hard to keep that stuff from corroding firearms.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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5 hours ago, John Boy said:

No need to ... half of the mix is ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) and if Marvel Mystery Oil is used in the mix ... both fluids serve the same lubing as Kroil, even better 

 

Never knew that, it's good information to have.

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8 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

 

Never knew that, it's good information to have.

ATF also works as a great bore cleaner. ;)

OLG

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Here’s the problem.  When black powder or one of the substitutes is fired, they leave a residue of salts that are hygroscopic, or water attracting.  These salts are NOT soluble in petroleum based solvents.  No reasonable amount of cleaning with any type of oil or grease will remove all of the water-attracting salts.

 

The salts formed ARE soluble in water.  Therefore cleaning with one of the water based formulas will remove the salts that cause the rust.  Hot soapy water will work about as good as anything.

 

After you clean with the water-based cleaner and dry the gun, then clean and lubricate with the CLP of your choice.  This will be the end of your rust problems.

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Ballistol is your friend.

 

+100 to Cypress Sam

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20 hours ago, John Boy said:

* Mix up a solution of 50:50 mix of Acetone & ATF

* Spray the mix on the rust and let set for 15 minutes

* Rub the rusted areas with BRONZE wool

.... You'll wonder where the rust went ... GONE and never to return

Just to emphasize that you want BRONZE wool...    IME, you don't need the Acetone (especially on finishes), and pretty much any good oil will aid in washing away what the bronze wool lifts off.

 

And to "second" what Garrison Joe sez to do with the rest of Pyrodex... which I've been told forms a sulphuric acid in it's residue, which becomes hydrosulphuric acid as it attracts moisture, hence the quick, and residual rusting, even AFTER you "think" you've cleaned it.  

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PLUS ONE TO Garrison Joe and Griff.

 

Pyrodex is a primarily a Rusting Agent that just happens to burn.  Only use is as Fertilizer.  May make Tomatoes taste funny though.

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The patent lists a number of possible compositions but one appears to be the basic formula used in Pyrodex.

45 parts of potassium nitrate

9 parts of charcoal

6 parts of sulfur

19 parts of potassium perchlorate

11 parts of sodium benzoate

6 parts of dicyanamide

1 to 4 parts of water

There is something of a dark side to Pyrodex. The patent disclosure shows the formula to contain 19 parts of potassium perchlorate along with 6 parts of sulfur. This effects the powder in two ways. The presence of a perchlorate means that the residue produced by the combustion of the powder will be rich in potassium chloride. Any chloride being corrosive. The presence of elemental sulfur with a perchlorate presents shelf-life problems with the powder.

 

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Yep, potassium chloride (KCl) is a salt just like sodium chloride (NaCl) or table salt.  Both are soluble in water but are not soluble in oil.  A coating (or scrubbing) with oil only serves to preserve the corrosive salts.  Soapy water will emulsify the oil and dissolve the salts so they can be washed away and removed.

 

Once the salts are removed a good oil preservative will prevent rusting.

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With "real gunpowder' - black powder, the only corrosive element in the foul is potassium sulfide and  it doesn't rust as the potassium chloride does.  One can leave an uncleaned BP bore void of moisture in the safe for good period of time.  I have gone a week or better with no rust.  Leave Pyrodex bores for a day or so - expect rust and it degrades quickly in the container - only good for garden fertilizer

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On 10/21/2019 at 2:00 PM, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

Yep, potassium chloride (KCl) is a salt just like sodium chloride (NaCl) or table salt.  Both are soluble in water but are not soluble in oil.  A coating (or scrubbing) with oil only serves to preserve the corrosive salts.  Soapy water will emulsify the oil and dissolve the salts so they can be washed away and removed.

 

Once the salts are removed a good oil preservative will prevent rusting.

 

 

I agree but will add, I use Windex with vinegar. This is the clear general purpose stuff. It is basically water and alcohol with some soap and a small amount of vinegar.  The vinegar being acidic help neutralize the salts. 

 

Here is my routine; 

I am from and lived in SE Texas not far from the Gulf and with the humidity here I can watch thing rust. I shot BP almost exclusively for CAS and one of my guns is an original 92 made in 1895. At the range, I use a 10 to 1 mix of Balistol and water in a spray bottle to keep thing loose in all my guns and when I`m through for the day I spray them all inside and out one last time because sometimes I don`t get around to cleaning for several days. All this does is keep the fouling loose and oily until I can clean the guns.

When it`s time to clean I use two primary products that are readily available. I use Windex Multi-Surface Cleaner with Vinegar. This is the clear Windex but regular Windex will work if you add some vinegar. (about 2 table spoons in the standard size bottle) then I mix the bottle of windex with water half and half.

The vinegar is important because it is slightly acidic and helps neutralize the salts in the BP. I have tried some of the other methods that don't use the neutralizing agent such as vinegar and the do OK for short term storeage but eventually the left-over salts will cause rust.

  The next product that I use is Albany brand Brake Cleaner available from AutoZone. (it's now their house brand)

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This stuff is the same as BC Gunscrub but alot cheaper.

For a 92 rifle, take the buttstock off and you will want to remove the magazine plug, the mag spring and follower. With the Windex, spray inside and out working the action, use a rod and brush in the barrel and mag tube. Use the the windex to wash everything out working the action till it runs clear. I have a sink in my shop and to speed thing up, I run hot water through it, too. This helps dry the gun faster.

The next step is spray it out until it runs clear with the Auto Zone brand Brake parts cleaner. This will displace any left over water but it will also completely dry the gun of all the oils so you will need to oil it.

For gun oils I don't have a preference other than it should be a spray type oil. This is the best way to insure that the oil gets down in all the right places. I use WD-40 or Rem Oil. Some like to use Balistol. Spray it down dripping, stand it on it`s muzzle and let it drain overnight, wipe it down, put it back together and your done.

This sounds like a lot of work, but because I do this on a regular bases, I have an area in my shop just for this and it only takes me about 30 minute to clean two or three pistols, and one or two shotguns and rifles.

 

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On 10/21/2019 at 2:07 PM, John Boy said:

potassium sulfide

 

That would be potassium sulfate plus potassium carbonate and hydroxide in the fouling.  Believe the combustion is pretty complete,and the potassium nitrate in BP would not be converting to the sulfide. Not enough free carbon left in the residue to reduce sulfate to the sulfide.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Having shot BP for several decades and tried virtually every specialized commercial and home made guaranteed cleaning concoctions known, I have come to some conclusions.

1. H2O is not always your friend.

2. Pyrodex is horrible. Especially if you live in a humid area (which I did for years) and are slow to clean your guns (which I am).

3. Windex, or a Walmart equivalent, works great for cleaning. Better than Ballistol.

4. For BP subs, I like Trail Boss or 777. I still prefer the real thing though.

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