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fannerfifty 59504

Targets too close/far Easy Remedy

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"As an example, some shooters use different ammo for knock-downs (I don't). If I did, I would like to know if either of these matches have them in advance"
 
If you need special ammo for knockdowns, load a couple boxes. What's the highest number of knockdowns that you've run across in a regular SASS match? I'm not talking about some specific, special match with all knockdowns.

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38 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

 
"As an example, some shooters use different ammo for knock-downs (I don't). If I did, I would like to know if either of these matches have them in advance"
 
If you need special ammo for knockdowns, load a couple boxes. What's the highest number of knockdowns that you've run across in a regular SASS match? I'm not talking about some specific, special match with all knockdowns.

Knockdowns should be set to fall with Power factor 60 ammo.  So separate ammo should never be necessary.  But reality is that they're often adjusted differently, so everyone shooting smaller caliber (especially. 32 cal) has to figure out how much extra load is needed. 

 

Somebody should figure a standardized way to set/test the KD drop force, either a specialized device, or a gauge, such as a certain weight steel ball hanging from a certain length cord centered directly above the target center and pendulum released from horizontal.  That kind of standardization would seem to be a convenience to nearly everyone.   If there's anything irritating, it is to notice that some targets are stubborn, so having to reshuffle ammo at the last minute, just before going to the Loading Table.  Not to mention having to carry the contingency ammo around all day in the gun cart.  Trivial? Yes.  Irritating? Definitely. 

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All that was offered by Fanner was, having some idea of target size and distances so people can make better informed decisions. Shooters don't want to spend $1,000's of dollars to go somewhere and walk away dis-satisfied. All thats need is to place on the web site or registration form, our match is  a large target up close match. Our match is a variety match. Expect to see small. large, distance shooting, and lots of movement.

 

There was no comment about should we set targets back, should we have smaller targets, no comment on leveling the playing field by target size and placement. Just a simple what do you think about knowing in advance what you may be shooting. This should have been a 2 page discussion, but no. It went so far off the tracks its now on a boat!

Ike

 

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Knockdowns should be set to fall with Power factor 60 ammo.  So separate ammo should never be necessary.  But reality is that they're often adjusted differently, so everyone shooting smaller caliber (especially. 32 cal) has to figure out how much extra load is needed. 

 

Somebody should figure a standardized way to set/test the KD drop force, either a specialized device, or a gauge, such as a certain weight steel ball hanging from a certain length cord centered directly above the target center and pendulum released from horizontal.  That kind of standardization would seem to be a convenience to nearly everyone.   If there's anything irritating, it is to notice that some targets are stubborn, so having to reshuffle ammo at the last minute, just before going to the Loading Table.  Not to mention having to carry the contingency ammo around all day in the gun cart.  Trivial? Yes.  Irritating? Definitely. 

I've been shooting CAS for over 15 years, some of that time with 32's, and yet I've yet to be irritated by having to carry a few KD rounds.

 

Thank God that SASS matches are a lot more simple and enjoyable than the Wire.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Knockdowns should be set to fall with Power factor 60 ammo.  So separate ammo should never be necessary.  But reality is that they're often adjusted differently, so everyone shooting smaller caliber (especially. 32 cal) has to figure out how much extra load is needed. 

 

Somebody should figure a standardized way to set/test the KD drop force, either a specialized device, or a gauge, such as a certain weight steel ball hanging from a certain length cord centered directly above the target center and pendulum released from horizontal.  That kind of standardization would seem to be a convenience to nearly everyone.   If there's anything irritating, it is to notice that some targets are stubborn, so having to reshuffle ammo at the last minute, just before going to the Loading Table.  Not to mention having to carry the contingency ammo around all day in the gun cart.  Trivial? Yes.  Irritating? Definitely. 

I have been to matches where guys with .38's could not take the knockdowns, and then this kid with a .22 knocks them all down on the first shot. I don't think it's the targets in most cases, but rather that need to go as light as possible in some folks. In the early mornings, I can actually see the path of the bullets from those shooters. I have arrows that move faster than that

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Knockdowns should be set to fall with Power factor 60 ammo.  So separate ammo should never be necessary.  But reality is that they're often adjusted differently, so everyone shooting smaller caliber (especially. 32 cal) has to figure out how much extra load is needed. 

 

Somebody should figure a standardized way to set/test the KD drop force, either a specialized device, or a gauge, such as a certain weight steel ball hanging from a certain length cord centered directly above the target center and pendulum released from horizontal.  That kind of standardization would seem to be a convenience to nearly everyone.   If there's anything irritating, it is to notice that some targets are stubborn, so having to reshuffle ammo at the last minute, just before going to the Loading Table.  Not to mention having to carry the contingency ammo around all day in the gun cart.  Trivial? Yes.  Irritating? Definitely. 

You need to let us know when you’re joking because anymore it’s hard to tell. Carrying around extra ammo in your gun cart is irritating, you’ve got to be joking.

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I was just using knock downs as an example.

That discussion is probably off topic for this post.

 

But, on topic, I would still like to see the WR and EOT stages posted in advance for all of SASS to see.

 

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1 hour ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I have been to matches where guys with .38's could not take the knockdowns, and then this kid with a .22 knocks them all down on the first shot. I don't think it's the targets in most cases, but rather that need to go as light as possible in some folks. In the early mornings, I can actually see the path of the bullets from those shooters. I have arrows that move faster than that

2003 EoT, a fellow shooting .45s couldn't drop the knockdown targets, he complained and grievously.  Badlands Bud's sister, Sedona Sue, who was a junior at the time, came along with her .32's and laid them all flat!  That feller just sort of clammed up after that!

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1 hour ago, Colt Laredo said:

I was just using knock downs as an example.

That discussion is probably off topic for this post.

 

But, on topic, I would still like to see the WR and EOT stages posted in advance for all of SASS to see.

 

Before??? I don't believe that EOT even posts the stages after the match....

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20 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Before??? I don't believe that EOT even posts the stages after the match....

 

I don't think SASS does, but others post them on Facebook.

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It's tough to look at the scenarios on a piece of paper and determine distances and target size. Knock downs become out of adjustment and leaded up after a couple hundred shooters. Good shooters prepare for the variables. 

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4 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Carrying around extra ammo in your gun cart is irritating, you’ve got to be joking.

Why have a minimum power factor standard for ammo, if the targets aren't set to operate predictably with that level of force?  That seems to me to be just another facet of the target predictability, which everyone here sounds like they are looking for.  

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7 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

 
"As an example, some shooters use different ammo for knock-downs (I don't). If I did, I would like to know if either of these matches have them in advance"
 
If you need special ammo for knockdowns, load a couple boxes. What's the highest number of knockdowns that you've run across in a regular SASS match? I'm not talking about some specific, special match with all knockdowns.

I used to run around with 180gr bullets over the same powder load as my 125-130s. I looked up the actual load data and I was really pushing the upper end of .38 Special, getting into low .357 Magnum.

 

I think I still have that box somewhere. 

 

Smokin Gator! 

 

0280432aac8b0a26013ed3488adba48017f03d7f93a33fa6a3803caa547c6d2d.jpg

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5 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I don't think it's the targets in most cases,

Light ammo has a lot to do with it.  But KD targets can be set such that SASS standard ammo will dependably drop them when hit solidly, without need for the shooter to aim high on the target.   The challenge is setting them to drop properly, but not fall accidentally from the bounce of another target on the same rack going down hard.   That doesn't always work very well, so the plates end up being set to require a harder hit.  But with that said, PF-60 is a pretty hard hit.   The balance point isn't too hard to find. 

Unfortunately, when folks beef up their ammo for KDs, it complicates the above balance tremendously.  It's almost impossible to prevent incidental multiple plate drops with heavy ammo used by some shooters.  

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5 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

In the early mornings, I can actually see the path of the bullets from those shooters. I have arrows that move faster than that

Probably if you put a chron to those visible slow loads, they would not make power factor minimums.  I manage and chron my CAS loads carefully, so I have a good sense for how SASS required loads should sound, look and feel.  In matches, I have witnessed a few rounds that raise my eyebrows a bit.   

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bud #15821 said:

I used to run around with 180gr bullets over the same powder load as my 125-130s. I looked up the actual load data and I was really pushing the upper end of .38 Special, getting into low .357 Magnum.

If you look at the SASS Rules, they require a minimum power factor of only 60.  Then go to the Match Design Guide (2003-still most recent, I believe) and it calls for KD targets to be set so that a .38 Special 158 gn factory load can knock them down.  Factory. 38 rounds are loaded for about 750 fps.  That's a power factor of 118, or about twice the SASS minimum.  If that guideline is followed, it is no wonder that KD targets require heavier loads than what most folks normally shoot. 

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6 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If you look at the SASS Rules, they require a minimum power factor of only 60.  Then go to the Match Design Guide (2003-still most recent, I believe) and it calls for KD targets to be set so that a .38 Special 158 gn factory load can knock them down.  Factory. 38 rounds are loaded for about 750 fps.  That's a power factor of 118, or about twice the SASS minimum.  If that guideline is followed, it is no wonder that KD targets require heavier loads than what most folks normally shoot. 

The argument goes both ways. I'd agree that for internal consistency, you might have your match-design guidelines indicate that KD targets should fall with the prescribed minimum power factor. The question would then become, do you bump the minimum power factor up to factory .38 or do you change the KD recommendation down to the current power factor?

 

However, the two rules were made for different reasons. The minimum power factor was an attempt to address "mouse-fart" loads and the KD recommendation was (ironically considering the start of this thread) simply an attempt to create some kind of standard for KD targets so people would have some idea what to expect as they traveled around the country shooting SASS matches. KD targets set light enough will be knocked down by the wind or fall out of calibration to the point that they won't stand at all fairly quickly. I suspect that the KD calibration recommendation of ".38 factory load" was more a practical matter than an attempt at a regulation on ammunition power and I'm almost certain it pre-dates the power factor.

 

From a purely practical standpoint, come match day, it's best to have in your cart whatever it takes to put any targets down.

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Good to see ya BUD.

 

..........Widder

 

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Wow. Howdy Bud! Before the 60 pf minimum was established I believe that somewhere it was stated that cap and ball revolvers, for example, were of course allowed, but that you might have trouble knocking down falling steel. You might need to hit the top half to knock them down. They weren't required to be set for the lowest legal load since there wasn't a minimum pf limit.

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bud #15821 said:

The argument goes both ways. I'd agree that for internal consistency, you might have your match-design guidelines indicate that KD targets should fall with the prescribed minimum power factor. The question would then become, do you bump the minimum power factor up to factory .38 or do you change the KD recommendation down to the current power factor?

 

However, the two rules were made for different reasons. The minimum power factor was an attempt to address "mouse-fart" loads and the KD recommendation was (ironically considering the start of this thread) simply an attempt to create some kind of standard for KD targets so people would have some idea what to expect as they traveled around the country shooting SASS matches. KD targets set light enough will be knocked down by the wind or fall out of calibration to the point that they won't stand at all fairly quickly. I suspect that the KD calibration recommendation of ".38 factory load" was more a practical matter than an attempt at a regulation on ammunition power and I'm almost certain it pre-dates the power factor.

 

From a purely practical standpoint, come match day, it's best to have in your cart whatever it takes to put any targets down.

Thank you very much for your clear explanation.  That's very helpful to those of us asking questions to understand the reasoning that has gone on before we arrived on the scene.  Sarcastic jabs from others don't really help very much.  Thank you again.  DDD

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:wacko:

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

 

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Badlands Bud!

 

0280432aac8b0a26013ed3488adba48017f03d7f93a33fa6a3803caa547c6d2d.jpg

 

 

Hope all is well in your world!

 

 

 

 

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Well remember we dont win any Cadillacs in this game it's just for our fun. It is very interesting to visit matches and watch via you tube other matches from all over. One thing we will prob not do is shoot our rifles at pistol targets, there's supposed to be a yardage distance difference even out on the great cowboy range. Our fast shooters will be fast no matter what so keeping it fun and interesting for the other 80% is more important to growing our sport, at least that's what most of the cowboys around here think , so we will honor that at our monthly's 

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 8:39 PM, McCandless said:

2003 EoT, a fellow shooting .45s couldn't drop the knockdown targets, he complained and grievously.  Badlands Bud's sister, Sedona Sue, who was a junior at the time, came along with her .32's and laid them all flat!  That feller just sort of clammed up after that!

Kaya did the same thing with her .410! One of the funniest things I've seen in CAS.

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On 7/13/2019 at 3:20 AM, Jackalope said:

Badlands Bud!

 

0280432aac8b0a26013ed3488adba48017f03d7f93a33fa6a3803caa547c6d2d.jpg

 

 

Hope all is well in your world!

 

 

 

 

Same to you and Anita. Congrats on escaping CA!

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On 7/11/2019 at 3:00 PM, Colt Laredo said:

Our Club posts monthly stages at least a week in advance. We don't show distance but we do show the target shape to be used.

And everyone local understands our philosophy as per distances.

 

Why doesn't EOT and Winter Range post their stages in advance?

 

They are the Championship SASS matches so if anyone should post them in advance, it should be these matches.

I certainly read a lot of unhappy shooters who did not expect the stages they shot.

They should proudly post the stages up for everyone to see in advance.

 

As an example, some shooters use different ammo for knock-downs (I don't). If I did, I would like to know if either of these matches have them in advance.

 

Some will say it's unfair that shooters can practice them in advance. I disagree. Everyone gets to practice them if they choose to.

 

It would be nice to have an idea of what I will be shooting.

If you remove the mystery of what everyone is going to shoot, I think people will be less disappointed at the end of the day.

 

 

 

It's refreshing to note that there's one thing that seems pretty constant in the world of cowboy action shooting is it's consistency.  

I once asked for that very same thing... like 33 years ago!  Ain't happened once yet.  Then again... at about that same time I asked for scores to be based on total time... and just like posting stages told... "ain't gonna happen".  Well... one of those two did.  Keep hopin'!  It might just happen soon!

 

Frankly, after having both reasons explained to me... I ain't asked since.  And my practice targets in the yard remain unused... since I can't actually practice on the actual stages to be shot... why bother!

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Howdy Griff.

We can always practice with the SG.   Unlikely those shooting sequences will change..... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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