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fannerfifty 59504

Targets too close/far Easy Remedy

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I still think variety is the key. I set up some stages that are big & close, others that are not so big and close, and sometimes you really have to aim but it won't be for extended periods of time because that gets taxing and takes the action out of action shooting. Hopefully no stages that are tricky or frustrating and that way you get to use all your skills and have fun. 

 

I'll never set targets really far unless it's a bonus shot where the balance of time makes it fun but not too weighted. I have seen and went through the scenario where at least 2 MD called the fast shooter's  out and said they were trying to slow us down.....and in the end just like Doc quoted everyone was frustrated and the fast shooter's won by an even bigger margin....they only difference was it's wasn't as much fun. There was one clean shooter at the match.....the winner. 

 

Don't get me wrong I hate a match that has 3 yard pistol and 7 yard rifle on every stage...….it's boring as heck...….but at the same time when you go out of your way to complicate things and don't think about the fun factor you are probably running off shooters. 

 

Honestly if you have to drive hours and hours to shoot a match that MD probably has MORE freedom because.....well people don't have many choices. Here in the SE you can shoot every weekend on Sat & Sun and only drive an hour or so to do that......so if you don't put on a good match people drive right past you and go where the good matches are. 

 

Last if you think shooting big and close is easy put a 5 foot circle target at 6 yards and dump all the guns on it...……..it's a damn circus...……...lol

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On 7/6/2019 at 1:00 PM, fannerfifty 59504 said:

"... If you are going to change the way you set up a match let people know...."  

That was the essential part of the OP and question.

 

This thread seems to be well and truly hijacked. 

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On 7/6/2019 at 6:08 PM, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

LOL. Another one who thinks a different skill set is a no skill situation. 

AMEN!

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Hey Fanner,

 

I quit reading responses a ways back, seems many were close to answering your original question, but many were far off the topic. Some were quick to respond, others slower (as myself).  ;)

 

Making a general statement on distances and target size for annual matches shouldn't be a big deal, I doubt monthly's would be so inclined. I'm pretty happy with whatever the scenario or distances and target sizes, but I will change my shooting style accordingly. Yes it would be beneficial to all involved to know some things in advance of committing to a shoot.

 

See you soon!

 

Tully

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Hey Fanner,  

 

DW and I just returned from a 2000 mile trip (spending close to $2,000) where we shot 32 stages over two weekends.  It was very clear that on the second weekend the locals knew what to expect.  If we were aware of the stages and typical setup we would have been as prepared as the locals.

 

An additional issue are reactive targets, clays & knockdowns.  On this last trip I brought ammo in preparation for pistol-rifle knockdowns (plates) and clay poppers & flyers.  There were none, regardless if there are then the locals are prepared, putting visitors at a disadvantage.  It is disheartening to hear the locals say "Yeah, we always do that stuff here" and I have never seen it.

 

I would like your suggestion to go a step further.

If a club is having a match where it is expected that non-local cowpokes will be willing to spend the time and funds to attend, then I would like the club to publish the stage descriptions along with approximate target size and distance.

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DDD, I couldn't resist taking a look at your clubs web site and found that you have a match on Saturday and a match on Sunday. I suggest that you test your theory and set Saturday "normal" and Sunday with the targets at the distances you would like. Do this over the period of a few months and compare attendance in the same months of previous years. You're a numbers guy; compare it every which way you can think of and let us know the results. If other members of the club resist doing this, perhaps you could convince them to let you run a match on a different weekend. 

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1 hour ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Hey Fanner,  

 

DW and I just returned from a 2000 mile trip (spending close to $2,000) where we shot 32 stages over two weekends.  It was very clear that on the second weekend the locals knew what to expect.  If we were aware of the stages and typical setup we would have been as prepared as the locals.

 

An additional issue are reactive targets, clays & knockdowns.  On this last trip I brought ammo in preparation for pistol-rifle knockdowns (plates) and clay poppers & flyers.  There were none, regardless if there are then the locals are prepared, putting visitors at a disadvantage.  It is disheartening to hear the locals say "Yeah, we always do that stuff here" and I have never seen it.

 

I would like your suggestion to go a step further.

If a club is having a match where it is expected that non-local cowpokes will be willing to spend the time and funds to attend, then I would like the club to publish the stage descriptions along with approximate target size and distance.

And how far in advance would you like this info published?

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52 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And how far in advance would you like this info published?

I think annual stages should be published minimally a month in advance. 

I believe monthlies should be available a week in advance.

 

Most clubs have websites and the ability to post their stages.

 

Simply add the target dimensions and distances and your customers have excellent information regarding what your match is offering.

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We have posted our stages for YEARS. We don't post distances and sizes of targets, but they don't change much.

I notice in looking at a lot of clubs' websites, most don't publish stages at all.

Be proud of your stuff! And people do like to get a peek in advance.

I don't know about the whole "info down to the inch" stuff though. Just me...

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It's hard enough to get clubs to post scores let alone stages with distances and sizes of targets.

 

That's all we need, more work for the FEW that actually work...

 

Phantom

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Actually this is a great question.

There are many variables in making decisions as to which matches to shoot.

One of those could be the timing of the match directors posting the stages.

So I might suspect that the sooner the better as far as the match directors are concerned. 

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3 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

It is disheartening to hear the locals say "Yeah, we always do that stuff here" and I have never seen it.

 

I would reply "Great! Something new!" :)

 

My local clubs aren't allowed to use poppers, stars, etc, and we don't have the room to store swingers or sliders. I love it when I visit somewhere and they have more than just the usual static plates. I'm not used to them and am probably at a disadvantage, but I enjoy the challenge. I don't care whether I knew in advance.

 

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49 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

We have posted our stages for YEARS. We don't post distances and sizes of targets, but they don't change much.

I notice in looking at a lot of clubs' websites, most don't publish stages at all.

Be proud of your stuff! And people do like to get a peek in advance.

I don't know about the whole "info down to the inch" stuff though. Just me...

I don't really believe that down to the inch is necessary; but knowing "generally" the club/ shoot/ match directors tendencies is helpful.  That is why the clubs that I ran matches for - I continually stressed our match philosophy on the website and in every post I made to promote.  

 

43 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's hard enough to get clubs to post scores let alone stages with distances and sizes of targets.

 

That's all we need, more work for the FEW that actually work...

 

Phantom

I posted the monthly stages for years with Desert Desperados.

I posted the annual stages for the Eldorado Cowboys (posting the monthlies was an ongoing point of debate amongst the board members which I finally gave up on).

 

The stages have to be written anyways - most of us write stages electronically.  Usually; the stages are shared via email to other shooters for review or oversight. 

The hard work is done already.

IMO; It is not any significant additional burden to add them to a webpage once a month.

 

And as a match director; I enjoyed speaking to shooters that attended my matches BECAUSE they had the opportunity to see the stages beforehand.  

And likely there were shooters that stayed home or went elsewhere for the same reason - Im happy that they didn't make a trip for a match they would not enjoy.

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

more work for the FEW that actually work...

Amen brother, the Few, the proud, the tasked out.....

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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I don't really believe that down to the inch is necessary; but knowing "generally" the club/ shoot/ match directors tendencies is helpful.  That is why the clubs that I ran matches for - I continually stressed our match philosophy on the website and in every post I made to promote.  

 

I posted the monthly stages for years with Desert Desperados.

I posted the annual stages for the Eldorado Cowboys (posting the monthlies was an ongoing point of debate amongst the board members which I finally gave up on).

 

The stages have to be written anyways - most of us write stages electronically.  Usually; the stages are shared via email to other shooters for review or oversight. 

The hard work is done already.

IMO; It is not any significant additional burden to add them to a webpage once a month.

 

And as a match director; I enjoyed speaking to shooters that attended my matches BECAUSE they had the opportunity to see the stages beforehand.  

And likely there were shooters that stayed home or went elsewhere for the same reason - Im happy that they didn't make a trip for a match they would not enjoy.

Did ya post size and distance of targets?

 

Did ya ever have to make adjustments to the stages only to have folks bitch that they weren't like the "Posted" stages?

 

Did ya ever have to deal with the few folks willing to help that had very limited Web knowledge?

 

Creeker, some can do it...to them, great. But a LOT of folks just can't do these things consistently...so why do it at all.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Actually this is a great question.

There are many variables in making decisions as to which matches to shoot.

One of those could be the timing of the match directors posting the stages.

So I might suspect that the sooner the better as far as the match directors are concerned. 

Looking forward to you taking on the task at your local club!

 

Phantom

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Hope you will attend

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6 hours ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

DDD, I couldn't resist taking a look at your clubs web site and found that you have a match on Saturday and a match on Sunday. I suggest that you test your theory and set Saturday "normal" and Sunday with the targets at the distances you would like. Do this over the period of a few months and compare attendance in the same months of previous years. You're a numbers guy; compare it every which way you can think of and let us know the results. If other members of the club resist doing this, perhaps you could convince them to let you run a match on a different weekend. 

Interesting thought.  Two problems come to mind though.  The first is set up effort.  We normally use the same targets both days, with minor changes, and with different courses of fire on Sat and Sun.  Moving target stands and staking them down would be a big job. 

 

Second problem is that attendance is always  30% lighter on the Saturday shoot.  Never figured out why.  I think giving up both weekend days is probably tough for those young enough to be employed and not retired.  

 

We do have a variety of matches though, since members are able to take a voluntary turn at MD.  

Our shooters tell us they like a lot of variety, both within matches and month to month.  When we toss in an optional bonus longer range target, like a 12" square at 35 yds, requiring a rifle reload, generally everyone elects to shoot it. 

In particular, our folks tell us they  like to shoot new targets.    So we design and build a lot of new stuff and commonly use the membership as test animals.  Generally we do a lot of laughing and having fun.  Great club!  And we've been growing in the past two years, often with one or two new members trying it on per month.  Most are younger men and women, in their 30-40s.  Our growth has recently been outrunning our attrition, by a good margin. 

The only way we've found to evaluate our shooter preferences has been via surveys.  We get every response imaginable on every  survey we do.  Lots and lots of diverse opinions, across all skill levels.  No real participation patterns to look at  except the club membership growth stats. 

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Did ya post size and distance of targets?

 

Did ya ever have to make adjustments to the stages only to have folks bitch that they weren't like the "Posted" stages?

 

Did ya ever have to deal with the few folks willing to help that had very limited Web knowledge?

 

Creeker, some can do it...to them, great. But a LOT of folks just can't do these things consistently...so why do it at all.

 

Phantom

Size and distance...

Monthlies?  No; but I had a fairly well known reputation for my style of big and close matches and one of my first acts as President was to relegate any plate smaller than 16" rounds to scrap.

 

Annuals?  Yes; I think I always made a point of pointing out my distances and target sizing - I considered it a selling point especially when my State shoot was only three weeks removed from Bordertown. 

I even marketed our shoot as the "non sold out" version of Bordertown.

 

I tried very, very, very hard to check and double-check my stages to avoid posting stages that I couldn't deliver.

My annual match was usually written six months or more in advance of the actual match with minimally two stage walk thru meetings with my board and match assistants for review and revision with the goal of having a finalized match printer ready 90 days out.

 

I was very proud that my annuals Posse Marshal walk thru could happen from the comfort of our picnic table gathering  spot in under 30 minutes because our stages were accurately represented in print and the stage instruction was complete.

 

Yes, I had folks with limited web knowledge and ability; but when others could not do what was required - I took it upon myself to learn simple website design and posting to ensure what I needed happened.  In addition to VP, President and Match Director; I was our club webmaster for 15 years.

 

I have never been the very best at anything.

I'm not naturally talented at any sport, instrument or skill.

But I was a better football player and wrestler than a lot of guys with infinitely more talent than myself; because I put in the hours to be better.

I'm not the most tactful or cordial guy in the world - plenty of guys were smarter than I or better networkers - but I won award after award for performance in the retail world; because I put in the effort.

When I took on club leadership and match direction - I took it on wholeheartedly.  I treated the club and its operation like a second job; with a commitment to always give everything I had to the position.  If there was anything I had in my power to give to the position to better the event, better the shooters enjoyment - I did it.

I knew I didn't have the talent or skill set.  I could never be the best cowboy shooter in SASS; nor the best Gunfighter, Duelist or any other category.

But I could be one of the best match directors - because I was willing to work harder than most.

 

I understand that it's just a game.

But I figured that folks deserved my best.

 

I know that skill sets vary and the "best" is a subjective ideal.

But the "best" that the match director can provide within his or her skillset, range availability, target choices, match preparation, stage design and amenities should always be our expectation.

 

I know - I type too much.

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What is wrong with just turning up to a match and shoot what is there. Each match is different and Whether it be monthly or annually. Also isn’t the slogan - come for the shooting and stay for the people, which is what it’s all about. As well as playing cowboy/girl and injuns:D

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Creeker, people who give to CAS what you say you have are to be commended... but there are not enough of you.

We have a handful of clubs in our area where folks can shoot so loyalties are divided. We do have some dedicated folks and they are very much appreciated, but we just don't have enough to do more than we do. I'm pretty sure I can say that with all those responsibilities, you've felt at times that others should kick in and do more. Some folks (me) are those that would rather "just do it themselves", but that wears on you and sooner or later you realize that you should let others help. A club that has several to run the show are blessed beyond measure, but not all clubs do.

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Your correct Creeker........... you type too much! ;)

 

But I, for one, always enjoy your post regardless of length or brevity.   

You get a lot said that make sense to me.

 

Thanks for you input and dedication.  

 

..........Widder

 

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6 hours ago, El Hombre said:

What is wrong with just turning up to a match and shoot what is there. Each match is different and Whether it be monthly or annually. Also isn’t the slogan - come for the shooting and stay for the people, which is what it’s all about. As well as playing cowboy/girl and injuns:D

I think that can be a fine approach for a monthly.  Of course for the local monthly matches locals know what to expect.  I don't think I would want to pay match fees for four people, load all that gear and luggage, drive for hours, stay in a hotel, and use time off to go to a match with no idea what I'm getting into.  We usually have time to go to about 6-8 big matches a year and going to one is going to cost a minimum of a thousand dollars, so it just makes sense to pick ones we are familiar with and know we will enjoy.

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     In my opinion...Big matches should have the stages posted so people coming in from out of town know what to expect and can decide to go or not. Monthly matches I don't feel requires the need to publish the stages beforehand. Usually they are set close to the same every month. If I decide to go out of town to a monthly match and it matters enough to me to know how it is set up, then it matters enough for me to pick up the phone and call ahead. Just my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

     In my opinion...Big matches should have the stages posted so people coming in from out of town know what to expect and can decide to go or not. Monthly matches I don't feel requires the need to publish the stages beforehand. Usually they are set close to the same every month. If I decide to go out of town to a monthly match and it matters enough to me to know how it is set up, then it matters enough for me to pick up the phone and call ahead. Just my opinion.

 

Cowboy's using a phone? Surely you jest...

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11 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Cowboy's using a phone? Surely you jest...

You got me. :ph34r:

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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 8:22 PM, J-BAR #18287 said:

This thread reminds me that several years ago some golf pros complained about how a US Open course was set up.  A USGA official commented that the US Open was not trying to frustrate the best golfers in the world, just identify them.  The EOT match results appear to have accomplished that goal.

 

Since this thread has already been hijacked to a different time zone I don't feel guilty contributing to taking it further off course.

 

Your analogy is one rare instance where I agree with Phantom.  It took me a long time to recognize his point but I now firmly agree that comparing any SASS match to a golf tournament is like comparing apples to hand grenades.  In golf, especially in a tournament like the US Open, you have to qualify to get in.  The USGA was correct in that they are hosting the best golfers in the world.  For that reason they can set up a course to challenge that very small group of highly talented people.  SASS is 180 degrees opposite of that.  Anybody willing to lay down their $$$ can shoot.  Hopefully match directors recognize that fact and set up their matches accordingly.  What is accordingly?  Your customers will determine that.  If they keep coming back then you're doing it right.  If not you may want to re-think your set-up.

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47 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Since this thread has already been hijacked to a different time zone I don't feel guilty contributing to taking it further off course.

 

Your analogy is one rare instance where I agree with Phantom.  It took me a long time to recognize his point but I now firmly agree that comparing any SASS match to a golf tournament is like comparing apples to hand grenades.  In golf, especially in a tournament like the US Open, you have to qualify to get in.  The USGA was correct in that they are hosting the best golfers in the world.  For that reason they can set up a course to challenge that very small group of highly talented people.  SASS is 180 degrees opposite of that.  Anybody willing to lay down their $$$ can shoot.  Hopefully match directors recognize that fact and set up their matches accordingly.  What is accordingly?  Your customers will determine that.  If they keep coming back then you're doing it right.  If not you may want to re-think your set-up.

 

My comment was really not intended to compare golf and CAS/SASS.    I was simply trying to say in a bit different way that the champions are going to win whether it's a tough target array or an easy one.  A few days ago Colt Faro posted a video of Matt Black setting a new world record on the standardized target array.  Last fall I posted a video of Missouri Lefty setting four world records on that same tough target setup. There is no way any Match Director could set up targets and scenarios to make me competitive against these fellows and the other competitors who win their categories at EOT.   Those who attend EOT for fellowship, entertainment, non-competitive reasons can still satisfy those goals no matter how difficult the targets are. 

 

I understand and appreciate your view point.  There may be a few shooters who think they can rank higher if the targets are easy, and those would probably be the ones who would stay away from a match with "tough targets".  I have no idea how many shooters feel that way.   I am not campaigning for either set up, because I have fun either way at every match I attend.   I will shoot the match that a Match Director presents to me and be grateful that I'm not mowing the lawn.  :D    The degree of difficulty of the targets at EOT have no bearing on my decision to participate or not.  So far I have not attended because of travel and expense considerations.  Perhaps someday that will change.

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30 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

 

My comment was really not intended to compare golf and CAS/SASS.    I was simply trying to say in a bit different way that the champions are going to win whether it's a tough target array or an easy one.  A few days ago Colt Faro posted a video of Matt Black setting a new world record on the standardized target array.  Last fall I posted a video of Missouri Lefty setting four world records on that same tough target setup. There is no way any Match Director could set up targets and scenarios to make me competitive against these fellows and the other competitors who win their categories at EOT.   Those who attend EOT for fellowship, entertainment, non-competitive reasons can still satisfy those goals no matter how difficult the targets are. 

 

I understand and appreciate your view point.  There may be a few shooters who think they can rank higher if the targets are easy, and those would probably be the ones who would stay away from a match with "tough targets".  I have no idea how many shooters feel that way.   I am not campaigning for either set up, because I have fun either way at every match I attend.   I will shoot the match that a Match Director presents to me and be grateful that I'm not mowing the lawn.  :D    The degree of difficulty of the targets at EOT have no bearing on my decision to participate or not.  So far I have not attended because of travel and expense considerations.  Perhaps someday that will change.

I think some shooters stay away from matches with small far targets simply because they don't enjoy that type of match, not because they think they can do better on big and close. 

 

I prefer variety, but if I'm not going to get it and it's going to be either big and close or small and far I'll take big and close.

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:lol: No matter what we do, complaining will never go away.  Sometimes it seems like a national sport!  

Folks complain if:

That targets are too close

That targets are too far

Targets are too large

That targets are too small

CAS loads are too light

"Everybody uses "Race Guns"

CAS is not "Period Correct"

SASS requires too many guns

SASS doesn't allow rifle calibers

CAS holsters aren't correct

SASS allows denim jeans

CAS is too expensive

That shooter wasn't nice to me

SASS is all about Speed

SASS doesn't care about accuracy

Everything is 10-10-4

There are too many categories

We need a new category...

SASS stages are all "stand and deliver"

There's not enough movement

That stage was a track meet

Too many rules

We need a new rule

 

on and on, ad nauseum.  These are just a few of the comments garnered from this and other forums.

Personally, I'll just shoot what you offer.  If I'm lucky, the wind is right, and I don't fall over, I may reach the middle of the pack... on a good day.

I'm shooting and I'm hoping to meet new friends that will let me sit with them at dinner... then it's all good!

 

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These trousers make my @$$ look big

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Our Club posts monthly stages at least a week in advance. We don't show distance but we do show the target shape to be used.

And everyone local understands our philosophy as per distances.

 

Why doesn't EOT and Winter Range post their stages in advance?

 

They are the Championship SASS matches so if anyone should post them in advance, it should be these matches.

I certainly read a lot of unhappy shooters who did not expect the stages they shot.

They should proudly post the stages up for everyone to see in advance.

 

As an example, some shooters use different ammo for knock-downs (I don't). If I did, I would like to know if either of these matches have them in advance.

 

Some will say it's unfair that shooters can practice them in advance. I disagree. Everyone gets to practice them if they choose to.

 

It would be nice to have an idea of what I will be shooting.

If you remove the mystery of what everyone is going to shoot, I think people will be less disappointed at the end of the day.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

My comment was really not intended to compare golf and CAS/SASS.    I was simply trying to say in a bit different way that the champions are going to win whether it's a tough target array or an easy one.  

 

Ah. Understand and agree. 

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