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Targets too close/far Easy Remedy

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I was at a practice with several members of our clubs (Battle Born Rangers) and we were discussing all the controversy on target placement and degrees of difficulty in stages. We arrived at a fairly simple solution, put info on distances and difficulty on the Registration form for the match or the advertisement. If you live in the west you often travel between 1 and 5 Hundred miles to attend a match, we all know generally

how the clubs we are shooting with set their targets and stages, but for people unfamiliar with those clubs the info would be helpful. If you are going to change the way you set up a match let people know.  It is a giant disappointment to drive a long way and not enjoy a match if you don't like the setup . Let participants choose where they would like to spend their hard earned money. It also eliminates a lot of sniveling as the information was on your application , just shoot and enjoy. 

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Or, as a shooter, learn to shoot close or far targets, big and small, and go have fun!

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I have long been a proponent of this.

NO ONE is demanding any match director set their match in any specific manner - just inform us of what to expect and let us decide whether we wish to attend or not.

 

Simple information will do wonders.

For example...

At the Zippity do da state match,

Pistol targets will vary from 6 inch circles to 12 inch squares; with the closest set at SASS minimums and maximum out to 10 yards.

 

Rifle will consist of 6 inch circles and irregular shaped targets up to 12 inches in size at distances from 18 to 30 yards.

 

Shotgun will consist of 4 inch reactive plates set at 9 yards.

 

Sequences will be creative and challenging.  With many never seen before shooting orders.

 

Each stage will have multiple positions with a minimum of eight yards between position.

 

An element of luck will be required on a few stages with a turn of a card or roll of the dice determining gun order or shooting sequence.

 

Some shooters would love the above match, others would detest it.

 

But either way - your customer can make an informed decision on attending or going elsewhere.

And an informed customer has no grounds to complain.

 

This would result in a win - win for shooters and match directors.  

Shooters could avoid or patronize the shoots that suit their tastes and match directors could skip hearing shooters complain because they simply didn't get the match they wanted. 

 

But realistically - the above will never happen.

The shoots that are proud of their product already scream to the heavens about their target sizes and distances.  You know those shoots and match directors names already.

And the shoots that go about setting themselves to "challenge" the shooter will never admit it out loud.

They have the attitude that; "after all, everyone shoots the same match" so you should accept whatever gruel is placed in front of you and slurp it down gratefully. 

They will never admit what they are because they are not proud of it

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7 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Or, as a shooter, learn to shoot close or far targets, big and small, and go have fun!

With all due respect.

When you go out to dinner - do you choose how to best spend YOUR money or do you simply accept whatever food is placed in front of you?

 

If you go to the movies - do you pick the movie you wish to see or simply go into the first open theater and hope for the best?

 

Everyone has the right to determine the best use of their entertainment dollar - cowboy is no exception. 

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24 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

With all due respect.

When you go out to dinner - do you choose how to best spend YOUR money or do you simply accept whatever food is placed in front of you?

 

If you go to the movies - do you pick the movie you wish to see or simply go into the first open theater and hope for the best?

 

Everyone has the right to determine the best use of their entertainment dollar - cowboy is no exception. 

I’m not accepting anything or hoping for anything. I want use the skills I’ve learned. If I go to a match and the targets are big and close and fast, maybe I won’t be the fastest shooter there. Likewise, at a match where the shooter needs sight and trigger management, maybe someone will outshoot me. I’ll come home and work on my shortcomings. Not whine because the match wasn’t catered to me. 

It’s called cowboy action shooting. Not cowboy pick a match and category just so I can win a prize. 

Take for example, the NM State Wild Bunch championship. It’s grown by 25% the last three years and looks to again this year. But you better bring your A game! There will be super fast stages and stages that require you to use the sights. Not just how fast can you run the guns. 

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I have always enjoyed Eldorado just for that  reason , you knew what to expect, it's 400 miles each way but .worth the trip I also attend shoots where it is front sight and rear sight, that being said there are a lot of shooters that don't enjoy that .

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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

But either way - your customer can make an informed decision on attending or going elsewhere.

And an informed customer has no grounds to complain.

I hear what everyone is saying on this topic... i like to shoot cowboy action. I don’t care where the targets are, I don’t care if I have to “ride a

stick horse” or shuffle cards on or off the clock. This GAME is fun and that’s why I play. It’s also my business - which I take very seriously. However, you could ensure that every cowboy or cowgirl shot a clean match with no prop failures or blind spotters along with perfect weather and I promise you people would find something to complain about... That is the part of this game that, honestly, makes me sad.  This is such fun and yet, there’s so much to complain about... somewhere there is a disconnect. I wish I knew what it was because I’d try to work it out. I get that it’s competition...however, once Monday morning comes, we are back to our “real

selves” (unless you’re me :D).  

 

Please understand, I am NOT advocating for a stick horse or shuffling cards....I’m just here to play, have fun, make friends...and dress up, shoot real guns at steel and have a blast. 

 

Great Big Happy Hugs!

Scarlett

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

But you better bring your A game! There will be super fast stages and stages that require you to use the sights. Not just how fast can you run the guns. 

Why even have targets?  If all that matters is speed,  just let everyone rip off the shots into a berm, as fast as they can move.   With the targets set too close, big and simple, that's essentially what you are doing anyway.   The berm is just another huge, close target. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Why even have targets?  If all that matters is speed,  just let everyone rip off the shots into a berm, as fast as they can move.   With the targets set too close, big and simple, that's essentially what you are doing anyway.   

LOL. Another one who thinks a different skill set is a no skill situation. 

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Hey Scarlett, my Darlin... :wub:

 

I ain't saying I know where that 'disconnect' exist, by I have a slight idea.

 

It appears that all of us like variety and challenges in our Cowboy shooting.

And Boggus Deal said, and I quote..... "I want (to) use the skills I've learned".    I agree.  Indeed, many of us want to

use the skills we have learned and achieved, often thru diligence of practice.

 

But I think some clubs have found a way to create stages that have variety and also somewhat challenging....AND,

at the same time, those stages allow the shooters to use their specific skills without hampering their

abilities.

Basically, some clubs have managed to make their stages that many consider 'Big & Close',

yet the skill level to take advantage of those stages still require a good degree of proficiency.

 

Stage writing and target placements, target designs, and target sizes can be challenging,

even when they may seem Big & Close because the Clubs and their stage designers

have managed to build it into the match.

 

What it appears to have allowed is for the shooter (especially the average shooter) to

use those skills they have attained.   And, it has also seems to have allowed the shooter

to attain a higher lever of 'Dings', in which we all love to have.

 

Anyhow, I ain't saying I 'know' these things.   But, my observance of matches and comments

I have heard thru the past few years make me think that some of these things have managed

to help cause that 'disconnect'.

 

Another big item is that some of these folks would probably have a higher degree of 'dings',

if they used the right bullets..... ;)

 

You and I have both talked about Guns of August and the variety of the stages and targets.

Speaking for myself, I've never shot a match where the targets are as Big & Close, yet they still

had challenges and the skill levels of the shooter allowed it to be a great match.

 

I've read and heard about some of Creekers matches and its my guess that his

stages are probably Big & Close, yet the shooter best bring his 'A' game to perform

well because stages were still challenging. 

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Why even have targets?  If all that matters is speed,  just let everyone rip off the shots into a berm, as fast as they can move.   With the targets set too close, big and simple, that's essentially what you are doing anyway.   

While I'm not a fan of Bordertown style stages, Smokestack is SPOT ON with regards to skill sets.

 

If you think that running at top speeds on large targets is easy, try it sometime and then tell us about it.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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My better half and I have been going to a few different matches the last couple of years.  I  don't need to know where the targets are going to be placed to make my decision on whether to go or not.

Eldorado is different from Bordertown,  or pretty much any other match.

I don't want to get into a groove where the targets have to be this size and this distance.  

If I get to a match and they have 6" targets set at 30 yards,  I probably won't go back. Reasonable size and distance is all I want. 

And I also don't want to shoot Bordertown stages each weekend. 

 

My four cents worth, 

BS

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Quote

 

I think you guys are missing the point,,,, its about letting the shooter choose what and where he would like to shoot. Hopefully to make everyone feel better about their game. Sometimes its a long and expensive trip to shoot for a couple of days  I for one like to know what I'm getting into. We have a lot of members that don't travel and it might help them find something they like to attend.  I get tired of hearing about the old days when you shot quarters at 30 yards, if that's what you like great shoot those matches, but not everyone either likes them or has that skill set. We have declining attendance at matches  what would help?

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1 minute ago, fannerfifty 59504 said:

I think you guys are missing the point,,,, its about letting the shooter choose what and where he would like to shoot. Hopefully to make everyone feel better about their game. Sometimes its a long and expensive trip to shoot for a couple of days  I for one like to know what I'm getting into. We have a lot of members that don't travel and it might help them find something they like to attend.  I get tired of hearing about the old days when you shot quarters at 30 yards, if that's what you like great shoot those matches, but not everyone either likes them or has that skill set. We have declining attendance at matches  what would help?

 

Then contact said club and ask'em. ;)

OLG

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23 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If you think that running at top speeds on large targets is easy, try it sometime and then tell us about it.

I do get what you and Smokestack are saying about skill sets determining rank out omes, but at the same time, I would ask you to try to envision more of a balancing of the components of shooting skill.  

 

With 16" or larger targets set at 4 yds, the same fastest shooters will win every match.  It essentially becomes demonstration shooting.  Nobody can really compete favorably against their obvious speed, absent reasonable opportunity for them to miss, or procedurally err.  At 4 yds, those occurrences are very rare. 

 

But move those same targets out to 25 yds and you will see the fast guys have to slow down some, and other shooters with less speed, but with very good target acquisition and trigger management skills start to enter the competitive ranks. 

 

Then, for the sake of the example, move the targets out to 40 yards, and you will see some long-range shooters, who are used to dealing with elevation, start to become competitive too.   Now make the targets move, and speed becomes much less of a factor.  Anyone could win those stages.  

 

These are admittedly extreme examples, but they are, in fact, the kinds of stages used historically in CAS.  

 

My overall thought is that it is possible for a match to be a good one, and to include all of that variety.  I thought the Western Regional was such a match last year.  There were different stages that drew upon different skill sets, which allowed most everyone to enjoy applying and benefitting  from  their particular practiced skills, and thus have a great time.   The fast shooters like Bobcat Tyler and Coyote Carson still did very well, but the variety made it possible for others to at least be competitive on some of the stages. 

If they are really broadly based in their shooting skill, why would any of the fast shooters object to stages that test and demonstrate those broad capabilities? 

A good example was Matt Black, this year at EOT.  He is obviously a really capable, talented shooter.  His comment was that he really enjoyed the degree of challenge and variety offered this year.  

 

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14 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I do get what you and Smokestack are saying about skill sets determining rank out omes, but at the same time, I would ask you to try to envision more of a balancing of the components of shooting skill.  

 

With 16" or larger targets set at 4 yds, the same fastest shooters will win every match.  It essentially becomes demonstration shooting.  Nobody can really compete favorably against their obvious speed, absent reasonable opportunity for them to miss, or procedurally err.  At 4 yds, those occurrences are very rare. 

 

But move those same targets out to 25 yds and you will see the fast guys have to slow down some, and other shooters with less speed, but with very good target acquisition and trigger management skills start to enter the competitive ranks. 

 

Then, for the sake of the example, move the targets out to 40 yards, and you will see some long-range shooters, who are used to dealing with elevation, start to become competitive too.   Now make the targets move, and speed becomes much less of a factor.  Anyone could win those stages.  

 

These are admittedly extreme examples, but they are, in fact, the kinds of stages used historically in CAS.  

 

My overall thought is that it is possible for a match to be a good one, and to include all of that variety.  I thought the Western Regional was such a match last year.  There were different stages that drew upon different skill sets, which allowed most everyone to enjoy applying and benefitting  from  their particular practiced skills, and thus have a great time.   The fast shooters like Bobcat Tyler and Coyote Carson still did very well, but the variety made it possible for others to at least be competitive on some of the stages. 

If they are really broadly based in their shooting skill, why would any of the fast shooters object to stages that test and demonstrate those broad capabilities? 

A good example was Matt Black, this year at EOT.  He is obviously a really capable, talented shooter.  His comment was that he really enjoyed the degree of challenge and variety offered this year.  

 

 

 

Actually, you won't.  Shooters that rise to the top have solid fundamentals and can still hit the far targets at a very high speed.  You can't get really fast without solid fundamentals.  Moving targets out really doesn't change the rankings much, if at all.  And leads to more frustration for many.

 

We regularly have far targets at Sloughhouse Irregulars matches.  It doesn't affect the rankings at all.  Feel free to test the hypothesis you set up above and please let us know the results.  A sample size of more than 1 match would be needed to validate.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I do get what you and Smokestack are saying about skill sets determining rank out omes, but at the same time, I would ask you to try to envision more of a balancing of the components of shooting skill.  

 

With 16" or larger targets set at 4 yds, the same fastest shooters will win every match.  It essentially becomes demonstration shooting.  Nobody can really compete favorably against their obvious speed, absent reasonable opportunity for them to miss, or procedurally err.  At 4 yds, those occurrences are very rare. 

 

But move those same targets out to 25 yds and you will see the fast guys have to slow down some, and other shooters with less speed, but with very good target acquisition and trigger management skills start to enter the competitive ranks. 

 

Then, for the sake of the example, move the targets out to 40 yards, and you will see some long-range shooters, who are used to dealing with elevation, start to become competitive too.   Now make the targets move, and speed becomes much less of a factor.  Anyone could win those stages.  

 

These are admittedly extreme examples, but they are, in fact, the kinds of stages used historically in CAS.  

 

My overall thought is that it is possible for a match to be a good one, and to include all of that variety.  I thought the Western Regional was such a match last year.  There were different stages that drew upon different skill sets, which allowed most everyone to enjoy applying and benefitting  from  their particular practiced skills, and thus have a great time.   The fast shooters like Bobcat Tyler and Coyote Carson still did very well, but the variety made it possible for others to at least be competitive on some of the stages. 

If they are really broadly based in their shooting skill, why would any of the fast shooters object to stages that test and demonstrate those broad capabilities? 

A good example was Matt Black, this year at EOT.  He is obviously a really capable, talented shooter.  His comment was that he really enjoyed the degree of challenge and variety offered this year.  

 

Your assumption that moving the targets out will only slow down the fast guys is deeply flawed. That being said, I’m not a fan of a whole match of huge in your face steel, but some are and that’s OK. Some like small, fat targets, and that’s Ok too. What I take issue with is someone who acts like one or the other doesn’t require skill. They both do, and to some extent they are different skills. 

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2 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

 

Actually, you won't.  Shooters that rise to the top have solid fundamentals and can still hit the far targets at a very high speed.  You can't get really fast without solid fundamentals.  Moving targets out really doesn't change the rankings much, if at all.  And leads to more frustration for many.

 

We regularly have far targets at Sloughhouse Irregulars matches.  It doesn't affect the rankings at all.  Feel free to test the hypothesis you set up above and please let us know the results.  A sample size of more than 1 match would be needed to validate.

 

 

 

Exactly, Doc.

On a similar thread last week, I post my testing and conclusions that I called 'Optimum Performance Levels'

and how we each have our OP levels.

 

I also showed a relation to that when it came to target sizes and distances for all of our shooting styles in

CAS, such as Traditional, Duelist and GF.

 

I think you and I also discussed this about 4 years ago and a similar test by You and Bud resulted in the

similar results..

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I do get what you and Smokestack are saying about skill sets determining rank out omes, but at the same time, I would ask you to try to envision more of a balancing of the components of shooting skill.  

 

With 16" or larger targets set at 4 yds, the same fastest shooters will win every match.  It essentially becomes demonstration shooting.  Nobody can really compete favorably against their obvious speed, absent reasonable opportunity for them to miss, or procedurally err.  At 4 yds, those occurrences are very rare. 

 

But move those same targets out to 25 yds and you will see the fast guys have to slow down some, and other shooters with less speed, but with very good target acquisition and trigger management skills start to enter the competitive ranks. 

 

Then, for the sake of the example, move the targets out to 40 yards, and you will see some long-range shooters, who are used to dealing with elevation, start to become competitive too.   Now make the targets move, and speed becomes much less of a factor.  Anyone could win those stages.  

 

These are admittedly extreme examples, but they are, in fact, the kinds of stages used historically in CAS.  

 

My overall thought is that it is possible for a match to be a good one, and to include all of that variety.  I thought the Western Regional was such a match last year.  There were different stages that drew upon different skill sets, which allowed most everyone to enjoy applying and benefitting  from  their particular practiced skills, and thus have a great time.   The fast shooters like Bobcat Tyler and Coyote Carson still did very well, but the variety made it possible for others to at least be competitive on some of the stages. 

If they are really broadly based in their shooting skill, why would any of the fast shooters object to stages that test and demonstrate those broad capabilities? 

A good example was Matt Black, this year at EOT.  He is obviously a really capable, talented shooter.  His comment was that he really enjoyed the degree of challenge and variety offered this year.  

 

First off, your statement regarding us envisioning is pulled outta nowhere. Where did we say anything about a monolithic match design??? I've been writing stages for nearly a decade so please don't assume I'm writing monolithic matches just because I question your understanding of big/close/fast.

 

Secondly, it's been shown over and over and over again that the smaller/farther/etc matches further seperate the top shooters from the average shooters.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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24 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

What I take issue with is someone who acts like one or the other doesn’t require skill. They both do, and to some extent they are different skills. 

Actually, that was exactly my point too.  They are different skills, and all of them can be incorporated into matches that more people will enjoy.   CAS for many of us is not just about getting into the top rank.  We like variety and are here for shooting fun.   

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Actually, that was exactly my point too.  They are different skills, and all of them can be incorporated into matches that more people will enjoy.   CAS for many of us is not just about getting into the top rank.  We like variety and are here for shooting fun.   

 

EVERYONE is here for shooting fun or they wouldn't be here. 

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We validated what Doc and Smokestack said over 10 years ago.

 

SASS wanted us to experiment with distances, moving targets further left and right, etc.  We ran several matches and monitored how shooters commented and felt during the match.  Then we analyzed the scores using spreadsheets.

 

The shooters were nearly all grumbling and unhappy that they were shooting so poorly.  You see they were used to shooting a certain percentage behind the top shooters and saw they were doing much more poorly than usual.  So they were normally not able to say why, but they were frustrated.

 

They scores demonstrated that the spread between the shooters was much wider than before - with the top shooters running away from everyone much more than usual..

 

Many thought like Dusty Devil.  But the reality is the opposite.

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Cowboy ACTION not 

Cowboy PRECISION shooting

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2 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

scores demonstrated that the spread between the shooters was much wider than before - with the top shooters running away from everyone much more than usual..

That would certainly explain all the bellyaching we saw here on the wire earlier about the EOT stage layouts, from lots of folks (except the winners).  It appears the really good shooters' diverse skills enabled them to handle the distances, widespread arrays and angles, and complexity, and still do very well, commenting that they enjoyed the variety.  

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3 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That would certainly explain all the bellyaching we saw here on the wire earlier about the EOT stage layouts, from lots of folks (except the winners).  It appears the really good shooters' diverse skills enabled them to handle the distances, widespread arrays and angles, and complexity, and still do very well, commenting that they enjoyed the variety.  

If you think what you read here on the Wire is reality, you need to get out a bit more.

 

Oy ...

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28 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

First off, your statement regarding us envisioning is pulled outta nowhere. Where did we say anything about a monolithic match design???

I think you added (pulled out of nowhere?!) the "monolithic match design" language.  I made no mention of it.  Nor did I incinuate that anybody was trying to do that.  I spoke only about the desirability of including variety.  

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Just now, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think you added (pulled out of nowhere?!) the "monolithic match design" language.  I made no mention of it.  Nor did I incinuate that anybody was trying to do that.  I spoke only about the desirability of including variety.  

Do you think you're exposing us to new thoughts/ideas???

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Then contact said club and ask'em. ;)

OLG

That doesn’t work either, OLG, I’ve tried and they moved the small targets out further. That club ain’t around anymore, for good reason, hardly anyone shot there anymore. Another club I’d frequent every month if they’d try a few changes gets pissed off when you offer suggestions. There is another venue I can go to on that Saturday.

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:
2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think you added (pulled out of nowhere?!) the "monolithic match design" language.  I made no mention of it.  Nor did I incinuate that anybody was trying to do that.  I spoke only about the desirability of including variety.  

Do you think you're exposing us to new thoughts/ideas???

No, not particularly.   I'm sure all of this discussion comes up redundantly and often whenever CAS shooters get together.    But obviously we enjoy interfacing and pushing things around here too.   Otherwise we wouldn't log on.   To me, this is much more interesting than TV programming, and MUCH more factually based and believable than watching or reading the so called "news" these days.   There is much to be learned here on the Wire. 

 

Best Regards to you! 

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29 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Actually, that was exactly my point too.  They are different skills, and all of them can be incorporated into matches that more people will enjoy.   CAS for many of us is not just about getting into the top rank.  We like variety and are here for shooting fun.   

Very few of us are concerned about getting into the top rank, whatever that means. The same old same old gets old real fast especially when you’ve been doing it for years. After you’ve played CAS awhile you may understand, but then again you may not. Some clubs offer up the exact same targets, stages, etc... from 10 years ago and don’t understand when attendance drops.

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My objective is to enjoy learning how to become a better Cowboy Action Shooter, how to take care of my guns, reload ammunition, and spend time with friends. Sure I want to get better times but not to the extent I miss the whole point for why I participate - which is learning and having a positive experience. It starts with me having a positive attitude and working with others to help the Posse enjoy the match. Targets too close, too small, wrong shape, wrong pattern, too far, too large, wrong color, too close together, etc. will vary from club to club. Get involved at the local level and forget about developing the "perfect stage" because mine will be different from yours. I am fortunate because I can shoot at 5 or 6 clubs here in Colorado and Wyoming, I am surrounded by shooters who care about the enjoyment of others, clubs that are extremely well organized, and I have the pleasure of watching some of the games best.

 

My mantra is: Participate, appreciate, encourage, learn, and support for the fun of it.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Exactly, Doc.

On a similar thread last week, I post my testing and conclusions that I called 'Optimum Performance Levels'

and how we each have our OP levels.

 

I also showed a relation to that when it came to target sizes and distances for all of our shooting styles in

CAS, such as Traditional, Duelist and GF.

 

I think you and I also discussed this about 4 years ago and a similar test by You and Bud resulted in the

similar results..

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

I think it's been a lot longer than 4 years since we discussed this topic.  I usually don't like to weigh in on these.  But yeah, Bud I experimented with a lot of different things back when we were practicing together. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

At the risk of writing a short thesis paper; I will share two points and some opinions.

 

First.

If you want the BEST opportunity for an average shooter to run with a world class shooter - the targets MUST be big and close and the sequences easy.

 

I am an average shooter.

I used to consider myself high average (after EOTs performance - low mediocre is perhaps more accurate...  But I digress.)

 

But on a fairly generous target array; I can run a 10 -10 - 4 with movements in the high teens.(sometimes I can even do it cleanly :blink:)

 

The VERY BEST in the world will run that same array in 10 - 12 seconds.

 

That 6-7 second difference is an eternity, but you know what? 

Sometimes even the best in the world miss - they fumble their shotgun load - they shoot the wrong sequence.

 

That singular error gives an average shooter like myself the CHANCE to beat them on that stage.

I'm not going to beat them for the match and certainly not every other championship level shooter at the match.

 

But if the stage is big enough / close enough/ fast enough - I MIGHT just hold one together long enough to eke out that one stage win over some of the best.

 

Make the stage longer, harder, more challenging...  The odds of me (remember, an average shooter) both getting thru the stage unscathed AND being close enough to the world class shooters time to take advantage of their possible miss, fumble or error lessens dramatically.

 

Second.

As counterintuitive as it seems; moving targets significantly further out LESSENS the accuracy required.

Because it reduces the penalty for missing.

 

I shot a stage today for a July 4th celebration match; a big, close, stand and deliver, hands not starting on guns, four target 21 round 1-7-7-6 sweep. 

10 pistol, 10 rifle, 1 shotgun.

I shot this in 13 seconds (and will wonders never cease; I was clean)

 

Now on this stage - each shot took approx. 0.62 of a second.

A single miss would have added 5 seconds to my stage.  Meaning that a miss would have the same value as the time it took to handle, aim and fire NINE rounds.

 

Move the targets out significantly - not an extra yard or two.

But move them out the 10 yard pistol and 50 yard rifle distances that some are calling for.

 

The best shooters (the current ones) not the mythical group that some think will arise like a Phoenix from the ashes of current mediocrity.

The best shooters will shoot these arrays in a second a shot - 24 second stages. 

Each miss is worth FIVE shots.

 

The average shooters will be shooting 48 second stages. 

2 seconds a shot.

A miss is only a two and a half shot penalty.

 

Move them out further yet - I think someone mentioned 30 yard pistol?

 

Now shooters are taking 3-5 seconds per shot to aim and fire... 

And when an aimed shot and a missed shot, (I'm not talking about real life or a battlefield - just about scores on a scoresheet) have the exact same value; accuracy becomes valueless.

 

Move the targets out significantly (while retaining a five second miss penalty) and you open up the "miss fast enough to win" mindset.

 

I'll finally shut up by retelling a story that most of you have heard before.

 

I was a club officer (now retired...  Retired, not retarded - I heard some of you giggling) at multiple clubs in the Las Vegas valley over the last 19 years.

 

Being an officer; I felt it was important to visit all the neighboring clubs every so often just to visit and network (even if said club was not one that I enjoyed shooting at).

I visited a club known (at that time) for distant targets and oddball sequences and I shot pretty well (I was better shooter then -15 years younger and with a non torn up knee).

 

The club president approached me after I had won the match (remember only a small monthly match) and asked my opinion of the shoot.

I told him I thought the targets were out too far and the sequences questionable.

"But you won."

I replied, "Winnings great; but I shoot cowboy to have fun and this match just isn't fun for me.  And it can't be fun for your shooters who are struggling".

He stated, "Well, we set them up this way to slow down you fast guys".

I responded, "I beat the 2nd place shooter by 90 seconds over a six stage match...  How's that slowing down the fast guys working out for you?"

 

I'm just a guppy in a very small pool - and the differences between shooters become huge when the targets move further away from the firing line.

 

Do the same with the current top guns in our game and the guppies might just as well stay home because we have NO chance of even seeing the top shooters much less catching them if they stumble.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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7 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

At the risk of writing a short thesis paper; I will share two points and some opinions.

 

First.

If you want the BEST opportunity for an average shooter to run with a world class shooter - the targets MUST be big and close and the sequences easy.

 

I am an average shooter.

I used to consider myself high average (after EOTs performance - low mediocre is perhaps more accurate...  But I digress.)

 

But on a fairly generous target array; I can run a 10 -10 - 4 with movements in the high teens.(sometimes I can even do it cleanly :blink:)

 

The VERY BEST in the world will run that same array in 10 - 12 seconds.

 

That 6-7 second difference is an eternity, but you know what? 

Sometimes even the best in the world miss - they fumble their shotgun load - they shoot the wrong sequence.

 

That singular error gives an average shooter like myself the CHANCE to beat them on that stage.

I'm not going to beat them for the match and certainly not every other championship level shooter at the match.

 

But if the stage is big enough / close enough/ fast enough - I MIGHT just hold one together long enough to eke out that one stage win over some of the best.

 

Make the stage longer, harder, more challenging...  The odds of me (remember, an average shooter) both getting thru the stage unscathed AND being close enough to the world class shooters time to take advantage of their possible miss, fumble or error lessens dramatically.

 

Second.

As counterintuitive as it seems; moving targets significantly further out LESSENS the accuracy required.

Because it reduces the penalty for missing.

 

I shot a stage today for a July 4th celebration match; a big, close, stand and deliver, hands not starting on guns, four target 21 round 1-7-7-6 sweep. 

10 pistol, 10 rifle, 1 shotgun.

I shot this in 13 seconds (and will wonders never cease; I was clean)

 

Now on this stage - each shot took approx. 0.62 of a second.

A single miss would have added 5 seconds to my stage.  Meaning that a miss would have the same value as the time it took to handle, aim and fire NINE rounds.

 

Move the targets out significantly - not an extra yard or two.

But move them out the 10 yard pistol and 50 yard rifle distances that some think would give other shooters a chance.

 

The best shooters (the current ones) not the mythical group that some think will arise like a Phoenix from the ashes of current mediocrity.

The best shooters will shoot these arrays in a second a shot - 24 second stages. 

Each miss is worth FIVE shots.

 

The average shooters will be shooting 48 second stages. 

2 seconds a shot.

A miss is only a two and a half shot penalty.

 

Move them out further yet - I think someone mentioned 30 yard pistol?

 

Now shooters are taking 3-5 seconds per shot to aim and fire... 

And when an aimed shot and a missed shot, (I'm not talking about real life or a battlefield - just about scores on a scorseheet) have the exact same value; accuracy becomes valueless.

 

Move the targets out significantly (while retaining a five second miss penalty) and you open up the "miss fast enough to win" mindset.

 

I'll finally shut up by retelling a story that most of you have heard before.

 

I was a club officer (now retired...  Retired, not retarded - I heard some of you giggling) at multiple clubs in the Las Vegas valley over the last 19 years.

 

Being an officer; I felt it was important to visit all the neighboring clubs every so often just to visit and network (even if said club was not one that I enjoyed shooting at).

I visited a club known (at that time) for distant targets and oddball sequences and I shot pretty well (I was better shooter then -15 years younger and with a non torn up knee).

 

The club president approached me after I had won the match (remember only a small monthly match) and asked my opinion of the shoot.

I told him I thought the targets were out too far and the sequences questionable.

"But you won."

I replied, "Winnings great; but I shoot cowboy to have fun and this match just isn't fun for me.  And it can't be fun for your shooters who are struggling".

He stated, "Well, we set them up this way to slow down you fast guys".

I responded, "I beat the 2nd place shooter by 90 seconds over a six stage match...  How's that slowing down the fast guys working out for you?"

 

I'm just a guppy in a very small pool - and the differences between shooters become huge when the targets move further away from the firing line.

 

Do the same with the current top guns in our game and the guppies might just as well stay home because we have NO chance of even seeing the top shooters much less catching them if they stumble.

BINGO!!!!

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6 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

...I am an average shooter.

I used to consider myself high average (after EOTs performance - low mediocre is perhaps more accurate...  But I digress.)

 

But on a fairly generous target array; I can run a 10 -10 - 4 with movements in the high teens.(sometimes I can even do it cleanly :blink:)

 

 You shoot a 10-10-4 in the high teens and that is average where you come from?

 

Good Lord...

 

:o;):D

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