Edge Hits

[Bart Solo]

I had two misses the other day.  It seems a SASS Cowboy plate opened his legs and two of my bullets passed between them.  I think we should tell the steel plate Cowboys to keep their legs closed.  

 

If you know it is a hit, it is a hit. If you think it is a hit it is a hit.  If you think it is a miss it is a hit.  If you know it is a miss it is a miss.  Most spotters give shooters the benefit of any doubt, and that is why they often defer to a spotter who sees an edge hit.  

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If a spotter don't see a hit nor hear the hit and calls it a miss...... then the call is based on their perception.

 

If a spotter sees the miss and calls the miss, then that is based on fact.

 

Soooooo, do we want spotters to make calls on their Perception or their Facts?

 

"Depth Perception can create Deep Deception".

 

..........Widder

 

[CodyMaverick]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

If a spotter don't see a hit nor hear the hit and calls it a miss...... then the call is based on their perception.

 

If a spotter sees the miss and calls the miss, then that is based on fact.

 

Soooooo, do we want spotters to make calls on their Perception or their Facts?

 

"Depth Perception can create Deep Deception".

 

..........Widder

 

 

Yea, I like this one too!  Let's make it a rule that the spotters have to actually "see" the miss or else it counts as a hit.  I think everyone will enjoy having more clean matches, I know I would. 

 

Seriously though; if you don't count those odd times when the lighting and viewing angle are just right where you can see the bullet in flight,  how do you see a miss?

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

9 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

Yea, I like this one too!  Let's make it a rule that the spotters have to actually "see" the miss or else it counts as a hit.  I think everyone will enjoy having more clean matches, I know I would. 

 

Seriously though; if you don't count those odd times when the lighting and viewing angle are just right where you can see the bullet in flight,  how do you see a miss?

when it hits where it wasn't supposed to hit,,,,

[CodyMaverick]

11 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

when it hits where it wasn't supposed to hit,,,,

 

Nope, that is still seeing a hit.

 

Question still stands,  how do you see a miss?

[J-BAR #18287]

Like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said of pornography, it may be hard to define but I know it when I see it.  

[Blackwater 53393]

I read somewhere in this thread, a statement proposing that spotters stand near the shooter to correctly call hits and misses.  The author of that statement obviously has never tried to spot when I’m shooting Black Powder!!  After about three rounds out of my pistols the targets are so obscured that even I can’t see them clearly and few if any can hear a hit!!  Most good spotters will also look for target movement along with the visual evidence left by the bullet striking the target.

 

Most ANY experienced spotter knows to pick a position where the targets are NOT obscured by smoke when observing a BP shooter and close to the shooter AIN’T the place!

 

I once shot a stage with a Texas star and a dump target for pistol and five rifle targets that called for a double tap sweep. I was the first shooter on that stage for the day and the targets were freshly painted. I knocked down the star plates with the first five shots and dumped the remaining five rounds on the dump target then finished off with ten on the rifle targets, two each. When I finished the stage, one spotter adamantly declared a miss!  All of the plates were down and there were five clear marks on the dump target. Each of the rifle targets showed two hits as well. The TO demanded, “What the HELL did he miss?? There’s ten hits on the rifle targets, five on the dump, and ALL the plates are down!!”

 

”One of those hits on the dump is a ricochet off the star!!” the spotter yelled back.

 

The posse began laughing and rolling on the ground. The TO called “Then this is his lucky day!! 21.05 and clean!! I need a new spotter!!  Next shooter please!!”

[Red Cent]

Black Powder? Hell, I hold up three fingers when they are done.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

3 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

Nope, that is still seeing a hit.

 

Question still stands,  how do you see a miss?

Hi Cody,

 

I'll try to answer you. It is a miss when you see dirt upset behind and, above, below, or beside the target. Edgers stir the dirt  kittywampus  to the targets. With hits, the dirt should be disturbed downward in front of the targets and the target should move. Targets that don't move are frequently dead (no sound).

 

Misses on the first target get harder to see when gun order is shooters' choice, as you don't know which target to watch. As a result, misses should be less frequent unless you see where the dirt is disturbed..

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Dutch Wheeler]

11 hours ago, Bart Solo said:

 

If you KNOW it is a hit, it is a HIT.

If you THINK it is a hit it is a HIT. 

If you THINK it is a miss it is a HIT. 

If you KNOW it is a miss it is a MISS. 

 

 

+1000

 

So, if you THINK it's an EDGER... IT'S A HIT!

 

Which is also why I shoot them FAT bullets!  (a.k.a. 45 Colt) 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

20 hours ago, Smoken D said:

If I don't see the hit, don't hear the hit, it's a miss. You can over rule me, but I will not change my mind. I try as best as I can and know mistakes are made, but I sure will not change my mind on what I saw and heard/ didn't hear.

I'm afraid you have this a little bit backwards...

Your failure to have seen or heard a hit is NOT the shooters responsibility.

By your system - if you are attacked by bees, diarrhea or your hair catches fire while you are a spotter - the shots you miss seeing hit are misses?

 

Your job as a spotter is to count misses.

This ensures the shooter is ALWAYS receiving the correct and directed benefit of a doubt.

If you don't SEE the MISS - its a hit.

 

If you are judging shooters by a "I have to be convinced the HIT happened" mindset - you are doing it wrong.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

20 hours ago, Smoken D said:

If I don't see the hit, don't hear the hit, it's a miss. You can over rule me, but I will not change my mind. I try as best as I can and know mistakes are made, but I sure will not change my mind on what I saw and heard/ didn't hear.

 

You REALLY need to sign up for some RO classes, ASAP! 

Your mindset here is 110% off from SASS.......

OLG

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

7 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

Question still stands,  how do you see a miss?

 

A MISS is not defined by a the bullet FAILING to contact ANYTHING. 

It is defined by the bullet failing to to contact the intended target. 

Necessitating watching both the target and areas to the rear of the intended target.

If I indeed OBSERVE the bullet fail to contact the intended target and this observation is then substantiated by impact on an area or surface other than the intended target.

I can indeed say I have SEEN the miss.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

7 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

Nope, that is still seeing a hit.

 

Question still stands,  how do you see a miss?

 

3 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Cody,

 

I'll try to answer you. It is a miss when you see dirt upset behind and, above, below, or beside the target. Edgers stir the dirt  kittywampus  to the targets. With hits, the dirt should be disturbed downward in front of the targets and the target should move. Targets that don't move are frequently dead (no sound).

 

Misses on the first target get harder to see when gun order is shooters' choice, as you don't know which target to watch. As a result, misses should be less frequent unless you see where the dirt is disturbed..

 

Regards,

 

Allie

I got a PM that I missed Cody's point. Will anyone else who got it, please enlighten me.

 

If Cody was just being goofy,  I'm not amused. If this thread was for amusement purposes, not education, I believe it belongs in the Saloon.

[Cherokee sgt.]

This is a very interesting thread 

as a TO / posse marshal/ Range Master/ & match Director/ Black Badge/ over past 15 year

I am worn  Down  with One or more 

people on  a posse  with the agranda 

to not count correctly on hits / mIss's 

safety's P's  even SDQ's (why?)

and when you give The benefit of the

the Doubt to the shooter  you are 

some how doing something  unsavory ! 

I just finished my last RODEO 

the The Southeast Regional 

I rode that BULL for th last time ! 

 

Oklahoma Dee it is a pleasure to read 

your post's  on this  thread .

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

7 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

how do you see a miss?

 

You have to be alert to EVIDENCE of a miss.  Unless you have a round traveling close to or under the minimum velocity and good back lighting on the bullet base, so you can accurately follow it's trajectory, you don't "see the bullet miss the target as it goes by".   "See the miss" is a short way of saying "witnessed no evidence of a hit."  Direct evidence of a hit could be a tick sound (at right time), a ting sound, a wiggle of the target, a deviation of the bullet path due to edging the target,  as well as seeing actual bullet splash on target or getting a normal clang from the correct target.  Direct evidence of a miss includes visible impact on the target stand (only), or a direct-shot dirt splash in front of target.    And on the stuff in between, pay attention.  Something will either confirm the miss without doubt, or it's to be called a hit.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

9 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

I got a PM that I missed Cody's point. Will anyone else who got it, please enlighten me.

 

Cody is attempting to perpetuate the idea that you cannot SEE a miss.

But since this is not freshman year philosophy...

I think that debate can be shelved easily.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Cody, GJ's term "evidence of a miss" is what I described. Is that good enough for you? Or, would you like to continue digging?

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

15 hours ago, Bart Solo said:

If you know it is a hit, it is a hit. If you think it is a hit, it is a hit.  If you think it is a miss it is a hit.  If you know it is a miss it is a miss.  Most spotters give shooters the benefit of any doubt, and that is why they often defer to a spotter who sees an edge hit.  

It should never be a miss unless YOU know for sure it is a MISS.  Counters should not be looking at other counters to see what their count was either.  Counters should call WHAT THEY SEE which is why we have three counters.

 

Also when counting for black powder shooters, don't stand directly behind them.  You need to be able to see the targets from the side rather than just the smoke from behind them.  Too often BP shooters get misses called unless they are the first shooter on a target that was freshly painted because counters "couldn't see because of the smoke."  That's one reason I like to shoot first on freshly painted targets.

[Smoken D]

Today was at a match and of course spotting. Spotter 1 and I had 2 misses. Spotter 3 & 4 had only 1 along with the T.O.. During the #2 pistol I only heard 4 shots and before I could say anything the shotgun was going off. I was next to spotter 1 and asked her if she only heard 4 shots from #2 pistol. She said yes and I told her since she was also at the unloading table to check that #2 pistol. There was an obvious miss, won't take time to go into that, and yes at the unloading table there was a live round in the chamber of that #2 pistol. I informed the T.O. of the live round showed it to him and explained that neither spotter #1 nor I heard that 5th shot out of the #2 pistol. The T.O. then informed the scorer there was 2 misses plus the safety. Was interesting that out of 5 only 2 of us caught this. The shooter was the one that gave us the bullet. 

 

Now on our range there is a lot of grass. You can shoot all day near a target and intentionally not hit the target and you will rarely see anything being disturbed behind the target in the grass. So I guess from a lot of people this will be counted as hits?? And yes I have seen nicks and have missed nicks also, if I am not certain about a miss,  it is a hit. 

[Yusta B.]

4 minutes ago, Smoken D said:

The T.O. then informed the scorer there was 2 misses plus the safety. Was interesting that out of 5 only 2 of us caught this. The shooter was the one that gave us the bullet. 

What was the safety for ? And why 4 spotters ?

[Smoken D]

23 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

What was the safety for ? And why 4 spotters ?

Sorry, my mind was somewhere else while typing was only counted as 2 misses. And why 4 spotters, Ya gotta be kidding, because there was 4 spotters.

[Yusta B.]

Just now, Smoken D said:

Sorry, my mind was somewhere else while typing was only counted as 2 misses. And why 4 spotters, Ya gotta be kidding, because there was 4 spotters.

Then how do you break a tie with the spotters?

[Smoken D]

2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Then how do you break a tie with the spotters?

 

How else, with pumpkin pie, tie goes to the shooter.

[Yusta B.]

Y'all sure have some different ideas up yonder .......

[CodyMaverick]

1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Cody, GJ's term "evidence of a miss" is what I described. Is that good enough for you? Or, would you like to continue digging?

 

Actually I was finished with this (I thought) but after reading some of the recent posts I can't just leave it there so I'll try to explain what I was getting at.  I have to admit I was being stupid in wanting someone to acknowledge that you generally cannot see a miss.  No I really don't need to keep digging, my hole is deep enough now.

[CodyMaverick]

2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I got a PM that I missed Cody's point. Will anyone else who got it, please enlighten me.

 

If Cody was just being goofy,  I'm not amused. If this thread was for amusement purposes, not education, I believe it belongs in the Saloon.

 

No Allie, not just being goofy and GJ did supply the response I was looking for.

 

My point is this:

 

What spotters are watching for are hits, not misses and the lack of hits are generally deemed to be misses. 

 

Spotters only have 2 senses to use to detect those hits. Sight and Sound.

 

Misses are determined by 1 of 2 methods:
1. A hit was detected somewhere other than a target designated for that string.  This is the ideal.
2. A hit was not detected anywhere.  Less than ideal but no less valid.

 

Based on some of the responses I have read, there are those that will vehemently disagree that #2 is a valid basis on which to call a miss.  That may be a worthy debate.  Whether you agree or not this is the way this game is being played.

 

I do not know of any rule or stipulation that a spotter must be able to identify where the missed shot actually did go.  I have never heard a TO ask a spotter to validate their call in this way. 

 

The only guideline I am aware of is that a spotter must be certain that any miss they call was indeed a miss.  While I may not always be able to tell you where that missed round landed, I will tell you with complete certainty that it did not land on any target that was in play for that firearm.

 

One caveat;  at one time or another we can all be completely certain of something and also be wrong.

[Smoken D]

14 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

No Allie, not just being goofy and GJ did supply the response I was looking for.

 

My point is this:

 

What spotters are watching for are hits, not misses and the lack of hits are generally deemed to be misses. 

 

Spotters only have 2 senses to use to detect those hits. Sight and Sound.

 

Misses are determined by 1 of 2 methods:
1. A hit was detected somewhere other than a target designated for that string.  This is the ideal.
2. A hit was not detected anywhere.  Less than ideal but no less valid.

 

Based on some of the responses I have read, there are those that will vehemently disagree that #2 is a valid basis on which to call a miss.  That may be a worthy debate.  Whether you agree or not this is the way this game is being played.

 

I do not know of any rule or stipulation that a spotter must be able to identify where the missed shot actually did go.  I have never heard a TO ask a spotter to validate their call in this way. 

 

The only guideline I am aware of is that a spotter must be certain that any miss they call was indeed a miss.  While I may not always be able to tell you where that missed round landed, I will tell you with complete certainty that it did not land on any target that was in play for that firearm.

 

One caveat;  at one time or another we can all be completely certain of something and also be wrong.

 

By also reading some of these responses, I would not like some to be spotting for me. If I miss a target I sure want it to be counted as a miss, not a hit as some have indicated they would go by. Another section of our range beyond the rifle targets are thick woods. A bullet unless the shot was WAY low, and hit in front of the target, the bullet will travel into these woods. They are cedar trees with limbs high off the ground. It is rare to see a hit into these trees beyond the targets. You are focused on the target and very unlikely focused into the woods unless you see a limb fall from being hit, a rarity. So, I take it some because they did not see a hit or hear the hit and did not see the bullet hit the ground, would consider a bullet that actually went into the woods as a hit. Maybe I should let some here be spotters for me. But as said if I missed, please count it as a miss. 

[CodyMaverick]

2 minutes ago, Smoken D said:

 

By also reading some of these responses, I would not like some to be spotting for me. If I miss a target I sure want it to be counted as a miss, not a hit as some have indicated they would go by. Another section of our range beyond the rifle targets are thick woods. A bullet unless the shot was WAY low, and hit in front of the target, the bullet will travel into these woods. They are cedar trees with limbs high off the ground. It is rare to see a hit into these trees beyond the targets. You are focused on the target and very unlikely focused into the woods unless you see a limb fall from being hit, a rarity. So, I take it some because they did not see a hit or hear the hit and did not see the bullet hit the ground, would consider a bullet that actually went into the woods as a hit. Maybe I should let some here be spotters for me. But as said if I missed, please count it as a miss. 

 

You reminded me of something I forgot to mention.  I have watched a lot of videos on YouTube and many of them are from out west and some of the ranges appear to be very dry and barren locations.  I expect a round that hits the ground or the berm would be easily detected by a telltale plume of dust.  Where I'm at the ground is not so dry and generally has vegetation, especially the berms.  Rounds that hit the ground or the berms are not so easy to identify.

[Smoken D]

9 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

You reminded me of something I forgot to mention.  I have watched a lot of videos on YouTube and many of them are from out west and some of the ranges appear to be very dry and barren locations.  I expect a round that hits the ground or the berm would be easily detected by a telltale plume of dust.  Where I'm at the ground is not so dry and generally has vegetation, especially the berms.  Rounds that hit the ground or the berms are not so easy to identify.

 

Exactly

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I'll say this,, I would much rather call clean and be wrong, than to call a miss when there wasn't!   and yes, there are times when you can't "see" a miss and you still call the miss,,, get over it!

[Griff]

Interesting thread.  Interesting ideas... So much ...

 

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

I may be wrong and if I am I'm sure I'm about to be corrected but I don't recall ever seeing anything in any SASS handbook or manual that requires a spotter to "SEE" a miss.  SASS defines a miss as a failure to HIT the appropriate type target with the appropriate type firearm.  If there is no evidence of a hit then it is a miss.  You look for hits and count misses.  Spotters should be focusing their attention at the targets to detect HITS not looking at the berm/ground/trees or what ever to "SEE" misses.  Like Cody said, a lot of times/places you will never be able to "SEE" a miss.  Spotters must position themselves to have a clear view of the TARGETS and use both sight and hearing to detect any evidence of a hit.  If the spotter has any doubt then it goes to the shooter.

 

For those of you that insist you must "SEE" a miss.. you can spot for me.  I'll just load my guns with blanks and blaze away and you will have to call me Clean because you will never be able to "SEE" my misses. :-)

[Augustus Goodnight]

"Question:   Should we stop discussion among the Spotters (on edge hits or anything) and simply ask the Spotters to call what the saw, accepting what they say first ?"

 

Absolutely Not, and here's why.

A fact of life is that in any sport where subjective judgement calls come into play bad calls are made. Sometimes to your benefit, sometimes to your detriment. Just like being an Umpire or Referee in Baseball, Football, Volleyball, Hockey, Soccer, etc., a large portion of Spotting is subjective judgement. And, like those other sports it sometimes takes a conference of one or more Umpires/Referees to figure out exactly what did happen. Ever see a home plate Umpire point down the 1st/3rd base line to query the baseline umpire if a batter went around on a checked swing? Spotting is no different. If you have two spotters on the Left of a target and the other to the Right and a bullet just nicks the Right edge of the target there's only going to be one spotter in the right position to see it. If you're that spotter on the the Right side of the target you're most likely going to have to point it out to the other two spotters. 

At ranges that have full stage fronts/facades these meeting of the minds happen more often than at open ranges where the spotters can more easily find clear lines of sight. In cases like this the only way the right call is going to be made is for the Spotters & TO to confer with each other.

 

On Spotting in General.

As a Spotter we have all made mistakes but there a lot of things you can do as a spotter to minimize making them. 

When I have the Flag I take it seriously.  At that point it's a job with a responsibility. I like to spot the first 7 or so shooters of each stage. The first thing I do when I come to a new bay/set of targets is to look at all of the targets before the first shooter comes to the line. I look over all of the targets for existing edge hit marks. Secondly, good Spotting most often requires moving around to maintain good lines of sight. I read the stage and figure out the most likely path the shooter an TO are going to be traveling. From there I look for a good place to be for each of the firing positions and how I'm going to get to each one as the shooter is transitioning between gun types. A little preparation can go a long way. Another thing I do especially at the end of a long day, the eyes are getting tired, the concentration is getting a little fuzzy, I'll Hand off the Flag and go pick brass or run the Unloading Table. At  that point I know I've become a liability to good subjective judgement. 

When you're a Spotter other people are relying on you, always do your level best to do them right. That's all anyone can ask and all I have to say on the matter.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 9:27 PM, Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 said:

For those of you that insist you must "SEE" a miss.. you can spot for me.  I'll just load my guns with blanks and blaze away and you will have to call me Clean because you will never be able to "SEE" my misses. :-)

 

The direction to count misses by "seeing" the miss is to take into account the times when spotters (and EVERY spotter has done it) lose focus or get distracted.  By encouraging spotters to only count misses that they actually "saw"; the shooter would never be penalized by a spotters failure.

This admonition to "see" was also done to encourage spotters to move position to position and not simply spot by ear.

 

Seeing does not mean actually having watch the bullet in flight. 

It means using every sense possible  including watching each target for any evidence of a strike on target.

Listening to every shot for any auditory feedback as evidence of a strike on target.

Observing all areas behind the target to substantiate your observations.

 

In other words; you are supposed to be an advocate for the shooter; seeking  every bit of honest and ethical evidence to call the shooter clean. 

It is only in the complete and total absence of that evidence; that you may call a miss.