WTC

[Amarillo Rattler]

Stage starts "Starting at the L table with hands touching hat brim, 

ATB, with Revolvers, starting on either end engage the circles (4) in a double tap sweep place last 2 shots on two center targets."

Pard shoots 9, then holsters 2d revolver and moves forward, beyond leading edge of table.

TO stops Pard, with "1 more"

Pard stops, draws 2nd revolver beyond leading edge of table and engages last target in sequence, then moves forward to engage R/SG targets.

 

WTC???

 

Amarillo Rattler

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

all depends on stage description,,,,did you HAVE to shoot behind the table,,  at the side of the table?   was he within a step,,?    

[Sixgun Seamus]

Unless the stage instructions said that the pistol must be shot from behind the starting table then I would say no call since he did not holster with a loaded round under hammer and he had not picked up or shot the next gun. The shooter owes the TO a big kiss for saving him from what would otherwise have only been a miss.

My 2¢. YMMV

[Yusta B.]

If the stage does not specify all shots must be made from behind the table then no call.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Two common interpretations of "at the table" are used in clubs around here.

 

The "Founder's Ranch big match" interpretation is:

"At the table" would mean both feet have to be directly uprange within the farthest edges of table to start and shooter must keep one foot directly uprange of the table edges while shooting from that position.      Shooter would have failed to do that.

 

The "close enough to touch" interpretation is:

A shooter has to start and remain close enough to touch the object used to define a position (the table in "at the table" direction) while shooting from the position.  Shooter would probably have done that successfully.

 

It's going to come down to what that club's local interpretation of what "AT A SHOOTING POSITION" is.  I wish there were a stage convention that made this clear.  But there is not.  So, call it what the Match Director says it is at his match.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

No Call.

 

Based on the OP, it looks like the shooter met the requirements by "STARTING" at the specified position.   Nothing was mentioned about shooting all pistol rounds from that specified position.

 

Can you tell us what he may have done that warranted any Penalty?

 

..........Widder

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I like flexibility, but I'm seeing a trend that will require much more detailed stage writing.

 

"It said to stand behind the table and then shoot.  It didn't say I couldn't move to the next table to shoot!"

[Yusta B.]

8 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I like flexibility, but I'm seeing a trend that will require much more detailed stage writing.

 

"It said to stand behind the table and then shoot.  It didn't say I couldn't move to the next table to shoot!"

+1

To me "Start at the table" is different than "Shooting from the table", or "Shooting from behind the table".

[Marauder SASS #13056]

So if it says to start at the table, can I go anywhere I like to shoot?

[El Hombre]

Starting at the table would mean within the parameters of the table. But he did holster his 2nd pistol with a live round in it then moved would that not be a dq of some sort?

[Assassin]

7 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Starting at the table would mean within the parameters of the table. But he did holster his 2nd pistol with a live round in it then moved would that not be a dq of some sort?

Only if the live round was under the hammer. We move with live rounds in our holstered pistols all the time. 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

2 hours ago, Amarillo Rattler said:

TO stops Pard, with "1 more"

Well, just for fun I'm gonna kinda go sideways with this one. It's either a no call or reshoot. Why?? cause if yer gonna stop/assist me please do so with complete info "one more Behind the table" or just remain quite and let me finish to the best of my ability with a miss. FWIW, once shooting has commenced we use if you can touch it yer there, but if it says start behind or at table that means behind it Good Luck

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I like flexibility, but I'm seeing a trend that will require much more detailed stage writing.

 

Howdy Marauder, yea the pendulum may swing a little far sometimes, been nice to get away from shooters boxes, hula hoops, orange paint, white chalk...etc...etc...bla....etc When we use the long gun cow/horse prop (we call her Molly) we include in stage instructions to start anywhere safely around Molly that you want to. This gives left/right handers a chance to start where comfortable. Good Luck

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

no reshoot, it was proper coaching,,, same as when someone tells the shooter to move with a cocked gun,,, the shooter should know the rules... 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

So if it says to start at the table, can I go anywhere I like to shoot?

That is exactly why the Eldorado Cowboys instituted "shoot it when you see it".  As long as the shooter is safe and meets the stated requirements of bullets " must pass x side of prop/ marker"; there are no hoops, boxes, lines, within touching distance, one step, etc. 

If you can see it and you want to shoot it from there - it's your call.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

That is exactly why the Eldorado Cowboys instituted "shoot it when you see it".  As long as the shooter is safe and meets the stated requirements of bullets " must pass x side of prop/ marker"; there are no hoops, boxes, lines, within touching distance, one step, etc. 

If you can see it and you want to shoot it from there - it's your call.

 

I like that flexibility in stage writing.   Thanks for posting.

 

..........Widder

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

16 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

 

I like that flexibility in stage writing.   Thanks for posting.

 

..........Widder

 

The Eldorado Cowboys have all individual bays per stage; so I tend to write a fair number of advance downrange stages.  What I have found as an unintended consequence of our "shoot it when you can see it" policy, is this allows shooters who (for example) feel they are accurate enough with their pistols to remain in place instead of moving all the possible distance downrange. 

So now there is yet another element for the shooter to consider of risk (greater distance to target) versus reward (time not spent moving). 

I think this is just another example (just like options to start with various guns or from different starting positions), that allows everyone the opportunity to shoot the match that is best for them.  

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

8 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The Eldorado Cowboys have all individual bays per stage; so I tend to write a fair number of advance downrange stages.  What I have found as an unintended consequence of our "shoot it when you can see it" policy, is this allows shooters who (for example) feel they are accurate enough with their pistols to remain in place instead of moving all the possible distance downrange. 

So now there is yet another element for the shooter to consider of risk (greater distance to target) versus reward (time not spent moving). 

I think this is just another example (just like options to start with various guns or from different starting positions), that allows everyone the opportunity to shoot the match that is best for them.  

 

I really like that concept of risk vs reward. I know for me, with rifle I’d feel no need to move anywhere. With pistols, I know that I’m much more fleet of foot than accurate so I would move to get as close as the stage allowed. Very cool concept. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

23 hours ago, Amarillo Rattler said:

Stage starts "Starting at the L table with hands touching hat brim, 

ATB, with Revolvers, starting on either end engage the circles (4) in a double tap sweep place last 2 shots on two center targets."

Pard shoots 9, then holsters 2d revolver and moves forward, beyond leading edge of table.

TO stops Pard, with "1 more"

Pard stops, draws 2nd revolver beyond leading edge of table and engages last target in sequence, then moves forward to engage R/SG targets.

 

WTC???

 

Amarillo Rattler

Unless the instructions say DO NOT MOVE beyond the leading edge of the table then it's a no call. Otherwise I'd say a "P" .

. Just my 2 cents!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

So I''m seeing a new standard.

 

If the stage does not say you cannot move, you can run up to the rifle targets and have at it.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

51 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

So I''m seeing a new standard.

 

If the stage does not say you cannot move, you can run up to the rifle targets and have at it.

Well, theoretically yes. 

Generally a match director will intend the stage/ shooter to flow a certain way which by the target array/ firearms staging/ and prop manipulation/ movements will avoid the shooter running up to the rifle targets and having at it.

But a shooter that desires to do so and can do so safely; should have no penalty to his choice beyond time taken to perform the action.

[Cinch]

I like the concept of shoot it when ya see it if there is enuff of an obstacle to make everyone move in the same general direction. Allowing someone to move laterally along the firing line at the peril of adding 2 yards to their shooting distance is akin to allowing them to shoot a different match.

 

As to the original post it looks like the TO allowed it

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Shoot when you see it is the way W3G is set up. Their scenarios are minimal. You run from shooting position to position. The basic scenario is to double tap targets on the white part that sticks out from the black base target and engage the white central KD part once. No brain twisters there.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I too do not like lines, boxes, etc.  And I like shoot'em when you see'em.

 

My concern is that this is requiring significant change in how we write stages if we have a stage where we want to restrict shooting positions.  And of course, ranges that do not have side berms often require more of that.

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

So I''m seeing a new standard.

 

If the stage does not say you cannot move, you can run up to the rifle targets and have at it.

Depends on how it's written, I was talking about the pistol targets. Does it say you have shoot from BEHIND the table or one foot beyond it? I'd like to see the written stage! I think that would help us all decide.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I can see a lot more shooting rifle and pistol at the same distance.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

40 minutes ago, Cinch said:

I like the concept of shoot it when ya see it if there is enuff of an obstacle to make everyone move in the same general direction. Allowing someone to move laterally along the firing line at the peril of adding 2 yards to their shooting distance is akin to allowing them to shoot a different match.

 

As to the original post it looks like the TO allowed it

what we use are usually upright markers of some sort (cactus, 6 ft PVC pipe, etc) and the scenario will state something to the effect of "rifle rounds must pass by the left side of the cactus.

pistol rounds must pass by right side of the cactus.

shotgun rounds must pass right side of upright pvc marker."

This moves you to where all the places I desire you to shoot from.  Ensures a certain flow and distance of movement.

 

it simply avoids foot faults and shooters having to look down.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I can see a lot more shooting rifle and pistol at the same distance.

For downrange stages using the same plates for rifle and pistol, this can indeed be the case.  Potentially levels the playing field between who feel they are more accurate than fleet of foot.  

[Ace_of_Hearts]

4 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

So I''m seeing a new standard.

 

If the stage does not say you cannot move, you can run up to the rifle targets and have at it.

With shoot when you see it........ You have to start from somewhere..... And there are always those nasty stage instructions that follow that say to restage the empty rifle "somewhere". And you can bet it isn't down by those rifle targets!

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

With many stages, it is down by the rifle targets.

 

So this is a significant change for many clubs.

 

Many clubs in my area have been doing a little more of this, but now that the starting position will be  nearly meaningless.

A main concern is retraining the spotters - and finding enough mobile spotters

 

When I started, the guideline was, if you have to ask, the answer is probably no.

 

Now, it is if it doesn't say I can't, I can. 

 

 

[Noz]

We shot a stage Saturday that had 5 targets of varying sizes and distance plus 4 shotgun TDs.  Stage instructions were:

Using rifle and pistols, shoot each target 4 times then shoot shotgun targets til down. Several different sequences were tried.

[Amarillo Rattler]

The original post quoted the stage instructions verbatim.

 

Interesting discussions by all who provided input.

 

Thanks,

Amarillo Rattler

 

 

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

By the time RO said there was one more round in the pistols, the shooter already had a P for not double tapping the 4th target.  Firing the unfired round at one of the two center targets avoided a miss penalty.  

 

The reason I know this is because I was the shooter.

[Cowboy Junky]

21 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

With many stages, it is down by the rifle targets.

 

So this is a significant change for many clubs.

 

Many clubs in my area have been doing a little more of this, but now that the starting position will be  nearly meaningless.

A main concern is retraining the spotters - and finding enough mobile spotters

 

When I started, the guideline was, if you have to ask, the answer is probably no.

 

Now, it is if it doesn't say I can't, I can. 

 

 

+1 It is getting kinda' like our court systems..........lol. Writing stages is getting harder all the time if you are trying to fight that mentality. IMO it's fine to think outside the box but sometimes it can get outta' hand.