Bad Bad Beth Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Well it sounds like they are wanting shooters opinions through their TGs so.... Personally, I like option B the best but which ever way they choose to move the boundaries around I still have to drive along way just cant win when your from Illinois....
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Silver Sam-Can you put up a picture of the current SASS regions? "A" is a much better balance of member numbers. OLG
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Well it sounds like they are wanting shooters opinions through their TGs so.... Yep, TGs were requested to copy the maps and discuss with their clubs. The TGs are then supposed to cast their club's vote no later than November 1, 2016.
Lead Ringer Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Option B ???? I can't understand the thinking behind the High plains Region. It's just huge!
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Option B ???? I can't understand the thinking behind the High plains Region. It's just huge! I am guessing it is an attempt to have enough shooters in the region.
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 I am guessing it is an attempt to have enough shooters in the region. +1. You have to look at the numbers.
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 While I personally prefer Option B I will wait until the club decides before voting. One thing a lot of people who don't live out in the Wilderness don't realize is that driving a long ways is a way of life out here. I'm in Utah and it is still 65 miles one way to the closest gas station and 165 miles to the closest big Supermarket and Walmart. 215 miles to the closest Home Depot. In some parts of MT my distances are short. I do think that it would be smarter to adjust Option B to move MO back into the East and move KY back into the MW. JMHO
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 current map.... Lumpy Gritz... I don't know what numbers you're looking at, but Option B draws more evenly from active members than option A does
El Muerto Negro Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 My OCD likes A, but regardless there will be movement of matches. The Northeast does not have a regional as the Great Noreaster is no longer. Only thing I can think of is Masion Dixion becoming the regional and Guns of August becoming the eastern division match. I'm sure that would not make Masion very happy. But regardless things will change. EMN
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Although defining regions by the number of shooters can have a negative effect on people's travel expenses, from a competitive standpoint, it is an important consideration. The number of shooters in the pool will almost certainly have some effect on the level of competition. It would (in theory) be easier to win or place highly in a state match in Montana than it would be to do so in California. Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I am saying this in theory or statistically. I realize that there are excellent shooters everywhere and that this is not a hard rule.
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 THX SS! Moving MO to the west just don't make any sense. "A" just 'looks' better balanced from east/west and north/south. Expanding northwest region to 10 states as in plan 'B'. Would be hard for many folks to travel the distance to say nut'n about winters. Maybe the TG's, can come up with their own mapping other than just the two put out to them. Wish the best of luck here Respectfully, OLG
Snakebite Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Centrally locating a match it not a good idea in most cases. If a match is getting a good attendance then LEAVE IT ALONE!. Moving a match to satisfy a few shooters at the expense of alienating thousands of shooters is just a dumb thing to do. Just try moving the National Championship and see what happens.... I'll tell you what would happen, The new National will pale in comparison and WR would still draw a crowd. Seems to me that I've seen something like that before. Sometimes things have to change... I've seen State and Regional matches that have just simply burned themselves out and a change was the only thing that could be done. Maybe that is what this region change is all about, But moving ANY match just to make it more centrally located would spell disaster. Snakebite
evil dogooder Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Yep, TGs were requested to copy the maps and discuss with their clubs. The TGs are then supposed to cast their club's vote no later than November 1, 2016. Ok I'm a newbie Here with only 5 years in. That being said, this year I'm a member of handful of clubs. Since joining sass i have never been asked any of the topics for any of the club's I'm a member of. My busiest year i was a member of 7 clubs. Yes they all have their own tgs. Personally id hate either option as some of our closest friends in sass are from the dakotas. It is what it is, distance would dictate if i go or not. Only so many vacation days in a year. That's why i won't attend our divisional. The only way I'll ever go there is if i win regionals
Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968 Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Hey Evil, The Dakota Wrecking crew will still come to see ya! I know were not very many in number, but we will still take home a trophy/buckle or two. Kat and I are in favor of option A. I realize that the High Plains will have the fewest number of SASS members (881 actually, I don't know how the map sez 2153??), but the Regions would be approximately the same size geographically. I burn 4,000 miles of diesel fuel every month for work, but I would like everyone in our Region to have the opportunity to attend their Regional match and many folks won't or can't travel over 12 hours for an event. Vic and Kat
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Hey Evil, The Dakota Wrecking crew will still come to see ya! I know were not very many in number, but we will still take home a trophy/buckle or two. Kat and I are in favor of option A. I realize that the High Plains will have the fewest number of SASS members (881 actually, I don't know how the map sez 2153??), but the Regions would be approximately the same size geographically. I burn 4,000 miles of diesel fuel every month for work, but I would like everyone in our Region to have the opportunity to attend their Regional match and many folks won't or can't travel over 12 hours for an event. Vic and Kat And therein lies a couple of potential issues that need to be considered. If Regions with 4,000+ shooters are lucky to draw 300 people to their regional match how many would show up if your shooter base is only 881? Also, this 881 represents several clubs spread out through several states. Would any one of those clubs have the infrastructure to actually put on a Regional?
Medicine Creek Johnny Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Hi And therein lies a couple of potential issues that need to be considered. If Regions with 4,000+ shooters are lucky to draw 300 people to their regional match how many would show up if your shooter base is only 881? Also, this 881 represents several clubs spread out through several states. Would any one of those clubs have the infrastructure to actually put on a Regional?I agree with some of what you say Larsen and fully realize that the regionals can't be in everyone's back yard. But the Dakotas have been sending around 50 shooters to our regional and if option B is chosen it will likely place our regional close to 1500 miles away. I don't think you can let people pick and choose which region they want to shoot in so this would likely lower regional participation by 50 shooters not increase itMCJ
Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968 Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Yes there would be some challenges being the "smallest" of the regions, however, there are facilities that could have the potential to host a Regional match. 300 seems to be the necessary number to be considered a regional. 300 shooters for the new Western Region would be 7% participation. 200 shooters for the new High Plains Region would be 23% participation. Is the sign of a good match the number of people that attend or the level of participation for the number of members? (BTW our state match was 140 shooters) This portion of the country has challenges because of the density of our population. They are the kind of challenges that my family likes. Open spaces.... Either way it goes..We will shoot and have fun.
Turkey Bob Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 As a TG this is the first I have heard of this,so when did this notice go out and do all TG'S get a notice ? Turkey Bob
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 Ok I'm a newbie Here with only 5 years in. That being said, this year I'm a member of handful of clubs. Since joining sass i have never been asked any of the topics for any of the club's I'm a member of. My busiest year i was a member of 7 clubs. Yes they all have their own tgs. Personally id hate either option as some of our closest friends in sass are from the dakotas. It is what it is, distance would dictate if i go or not. Only so many vacation days in a year. That's why i won't attend our divisional. The only way I'll ever go there is if i win regionals The idea that all the TGs poll their members in some manner and vote their wishes is a myth. The best TGs do it and that is a lot of them, they take their job seriously. Many if not most do not. Many if not most do not even make a vote of any kind to SASS, just look at TG #s at the conventions plus the proxy votes. The only exception seems to be red hot issues like the vote on the "cone of safety" garnered a few years ago, and I am not even sure a large % of all the clubs voted. In the past many key votes were taken in the winter when many clubs do not shoot or meet, making it difficult for the TGs to even canvas folks.
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 HiI agree with some of what you say Larsen and fully realize that the regionals can't be in everyone's back yard. But the Dakotas have been sending around 50 shooters to our regional and if option B is chosen it will likely place our regional close to 1500 miles away. I don't think you can let people pick and choose which region they want to shoot in so this would likely lower regional participation by 50 shooters not increase it MCJ Gunsmoke is a fantastic match!! By far my favorite. (I'm still bummed that I couldn't make it this year) Since I live in the Mideast region, it's never been "my" match, but still the only regional I shoot. I remember not that long ago when gunsmoke was the MN state match and they drew a heap of good folks from the Dakotas. I don't think that will change. I believe most of us attend matches based on the quality of the match and our own proximity, rather than a geographical line.
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 As a TG this is the first I have heard of this,so when did this notice go out and do all TG'S get a notice ? Turkey Bob The notice went out Sept 30th. Check with SASS to make sure they have your correct email address.
Medicine Creek Johnny Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Gunsmoke is a fantastic match!! By far my favorite. (I'm still bummed that I couldn't make it this year) Since I live in the Mideast region, it's never been "my" match, but still the only regional I shoot. I remember not that long ago when gunsmoke was the MN state match and they drew a heap of good folks from the Dakotas. I don't think that will change. I believe most of us attend matches based on the quality of the match and our own proximity, rather than a geographical line.I agree that Gunsmoke will still be a well attended great match weather it is a regional or not. That is because of all the hard work by the Cedar Valley Vigilanties. And thanks to all of you fine folks from out of the region who attend.That is my point about changing the regions won't necessarily increase participation. I would like to know the proposed location of the regionals before I cast my voteMCJ
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Which obviously means that SASS will choose Option A....... I would say looking attack the numbers ...option A makes sense.
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 I agree that Gunsmoke will still be a well attended great match weather it is a regional or not. That is because of all the hard work by the Cedar Valley Vigilanties. And thanks to all of you fine folks from out of the region who attend.That is my point about changing the regions won't necessarily increase participation. I would like to know the proposed location of the regionals before I cast my vote MCJ I too am curious about the proposed regional matches in the redrawn and/or renamed regions.
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 I would say looking attack the numbers ...option A makes sense. But Jackaroo... Everything looks upside down to you ! Regardless of if SASS chooses 6, 7 or 8 regions I doubt it will have much effect on which, if any, Regional Match most shooters choose to attend. The choice will still be made on distance, cost, time and quality of the match.
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 But Jackaroo... Everything looks upside down to you ! Regardless of if SASS chooses 6, 7 or 8 regions I doubt it will have much effect on which, if any, Regional Match most shooters choose to attend. The choice will still be made on distance, cost, time and quality of the match. Agree 100%
Flyin Shootest Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Like so many of our elections it is unfortunate that there isn’t a “None of the above” option. It is obvious some regions have difficulties that need to be addressed; my initial thoughts are fundamentally why does the pain in some regions need to propagate to the whole country. No matter where the regional lines are drawn there will be enough dislike to go around. At the moment the focus we need to maintain is the REGIONS not where the Regional shoots will be held. Once the regions are drawn then I would expect that the existing sanctioned regionals and any new organization will need to apply and be awarded inside the new regions. Being part of an organization that currently hosts a regional event, and in a new proposed region where there are several facilities capable of hosting a regional event there will potentially be a choice for SASS to relocate the event, but it would appear to me that the regions that currently have difficulties the new proposals have the potential of being a temporary fix. I really don’t want to have to revisit this every few years as been the case in the past. Distance and travel expenses are a significant concern, and should be considered. In the final analysis we are attendance decline for several reasons among them, the aging of the attendees, and the significant expenses involved in participation, and the sad fact that we see fewer and fewer new young participants entering the sport. Not only do we as an organization need to do more out reach to interest more people in participating, and also drawing boundaries, that take into consideration the time and expense to participate in our events. Our participants, are voting silently, first with their pocket books, and then with their feet finding other things to put their energy towards. It would appear that when the regions were redrawn last time, it didn’t correct the underlying problem. So my question becomes what is doing the same thing again going to fundamentally correct?
C.S. Brady, SASS #63699 Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 Well here I am on the border of Oklahoma in Fort Smith, three hours from regionals, I shoot with Oklahoma shooters all the time, we support each others clubs, but I won't get to be in that region anymore. If they move it to far away from me, I won't be able to attend, nor will several members of my club. It is hard for me to take off work, so I rarely get to shoot side matches. If it is moved far enough away that I can't get to the match area at a decent time after I get off from work I won't be able to go. Taking off an additional day is not an option. I am guessing I am not the only one in this boat. From my perspective that won't increase participation. I guess next year could be my last regional unless I somehow don't need a job anymore.
Two Spurs Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 On the upside with either choice, you would no longer have to split both the Southwest and Midwest Regions when it comes down to Divisionals.(which is weird to begin with) I always thought it was a bit strange that LA, AR, and MS are part of the "Southwest" Region anyway. Thinking pure geography that is. A hard task no doubt. Hang in there cowboys and cowgirls!
Cherokee sgt. Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 The Southeast Regional starting In Nov of 2017 will move to Lakeland Tennessee just off I 40 East With many Hotels & Restaurants very close ! Looks like Arkansas Mississippi & Louisiana would be in OK shape on plan A & Kentucky on plan B not to bad.
Outrider, SASS #72622 Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 The Southeast Regional starting In Nov of 2017 will move to Lakeland Tennessee just off I 40 East With many Hotels & Restaurants very close ! Looks like Arkansas Mississippi & Louisiana would be in OK shape on plan A & Kentucky on plan B not to bad. 164 miles from me. That would be great!
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 As somebody said decades ago.....you can please some of the people all the time, And you can please all of the people some of the time, But you will never please all the people, all of the time.
Misty Moonshine Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 Good morning everyone!I posted a separate thread addressing some of the questions that have been raised, but thought it best to post those here as well.... hope this helps. While we made every attempt to address concerns surrounding Regional allocation in 2014, there were additional factors that have arisen in the last year that were unavoidable and needed to be addressed. So, rather than making just a few changes here and there, we decided to do a complete examination of all existing regions and Regional Championships- working toward a reallocation in which the members voices could be heard in the process- prior to a decision being made. Why the need for the reallocation? What are the “factors” you refer to? The dissolution of the Central Region & Central Divisional Championship (Sparta/US Open) Missouri members requesting to be included in the Southwest Region Mississippi members requesting to be included in the Southeast Region An overall declining member numbers Declining numbers in attendance at some Regional matches (a dilution of the program) The Northeast Regional was abruptly cancelled by its hosts in 2016 2016 will mark the final year of the Southeast Regional at Givhan’s Ferry (per the hosts) Petitions to reinstate the High Plains Region Improved Regional Sponsorship success with fewer, better attended events Where will the Regional Championships be held once the reallocation is determined? Regional Championships have been awarded to clubs that have a track record of proven successful events. Historically, an existing organized match becomes a Regional- when the club and facilities have the resources, manpower, and support to host an event of this caliber. In the proposed reallocation, there is the possibility of the elimination of either 1 or 2 Regions; meaning the elimination of those Regional Championships. The club’s hosting those matches will likely continue to host amazing events- the event simply won’t be the Regional Championship. Once the Regions are determined, we will be “open” to proposals from any club/host range in each Region who is interested in hosting the Regional Championship for their Region. Existing Regional championships that have a proven successful track record will be given priority. All TG’s will receive additional information regarding how to prepare a proposal for a Regional Championship to distribute to the clubs in their Region that have an interest in applying for a Regional Championship. Misty Moonshine
Misty Moonshine Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 Which obviously means that SASS will choose Option A....... Silver Sam, Perhaps you missed the portion of this process in which we have asked the TG's to poll their clubs and cast their vote accordingly? I am making every attempt to ensure that the members' voices are heard in this process. If you aren't approached by your TG on this topic- seek out your TG and express your opinions with him/her- and BE HEARD. Misty
Coyote Kincaid Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 Well here I am on the border of Oklahoma in Fort Smith, three hours from regionals, I shoot with Oklahoma shooters all the time, we support each others clubs, but I won't get to be in that region anymore. If they move it to far away from me, I won't be able to attend, nor will several members of my club. It is hard for me to take off work, so I rarely get to shoot side matches. If it is moved far enough away that I can't get to the match area at a decent time after I get off from work I won't be able to go. Taking off an additional day is not an option. I am guessing I am not the only one in this boat. From my perspective that won't increase participation. I guess next year could be my last regional unless I somehow don't need a job anymore. +1 I can drive one state away and be at regionals but if I have to drive 4 states away and in the middle of deer season then I won't be able to attend.
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