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Blazen Vaquero, SASS 69509

EOT overall a great match - Just one pet peeve

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deleted.

 

..........Widder

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Well,

 

Just let folks shoot as much as they want but only one run at a time if someone is waiting. It's very entertaining to watch shooters duel it out all day long. Not many folks have the opportunity to shoot all day just for the pleasure of raw speed. Let them have at it.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

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I'm new to all this. I haven't shot a speed anything yet. Although I just bought my first "pocket pistol", an old Smith and Wesson with a grip safety.

 

From this new shooter's perspective, fastest run of the day should be just that. The fastest run. If you want to award the fastest first run, then do so. But the if it's a "speed" event, I'd want the fastest speed recognized, no matter how many tries it took. Maybe recognize both? Oh, and after each time you shoot, go to back of the line.

 

Just the view from my brand new, still creaking saddle,

NR

 

Edit: A thank you to all of you who helped me work up my Red Dot loads!

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Why not have some side matches that are something other than just speed this, speed that, and speed the other thing?

 

After a while, you come to realize that there is no point in even trying these side matches.

 

And what about the long range side matches? With the target so small and far away that some people can't even even see them, they become not worth the effort either. I am not saying bring the targets closer, just make them bigger. I may not get a decent sized grouping, but if I can at least see the target to actually have a chance to hit it, I would not wind up skipping the event like I did this year.

+1

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Why not have some side matches that are something other than just speed this, speed that, and speed the other thing?

 

After a while, you come to realize that there is no point in even trying these side matches.

 

And what about the long range side matches? With the target so small and far away that some people can't even even see them, they become not worth the effort either. I am not saying bring the targets closer, just make them bigger. I may not get a decent sized grouping, but if I can at least see the target to actually have a chance to hit it, I would not wind up skipping the event like I did this year.

+1

I agree!

That is my main concern since I have seen a very few shooters essentially block all others from being able to shoot the side match. It is pretty easy to get caught up in the competition and not realize that the even can be monopolized.

What if the side matches were a one time fee for all day? I agree if you want to pay to rerun the side at H it's to who ever can or what's to buy it, but when there isn't any charge for the addional runs all it does is put others off. I'm one after shooting the derringer and pocket pistol side matches after those that sat there and reloaded time and time again what's the point?

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I agree it is a difference in opinions but if it's shoot till you drop I'll save my ammo in the future. I would like to make one last thing known. I use to shoot plainsman then quit for health reasons so I quit paying for side matches if I had the option then bought a derringer but the first was crap finally got a bond but health reasons and not staying onsite kept me from trying it in the side matches. This year right before EOT I picked up a 1870's s&w da pocket pistol and found some ammo locally so I figured it was time to try these two side matches out. I went down to the bay and one guy was shooting it over and over seven times I beleive was the limit with someone waiting then the next got up and shot it seven times. I finally got my turn shot it twice once was the first time shooting the bond in the caliber and the S&W was the first time ever shooting a pocket pistol. I got up and loaned my stuff to peco nick to try it out he tried it a couple of times before returning the gear. I doubt I'll shoot the side matches at EOT or WR ever again. Maybe if they go to first run for awards everything else for bragging rights and if someone is in line they shoot once( per side match) then go to the end of the line. It's the only fair way. Not everyone wanted to camp out at a side match

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Why not have some side matches that are something other than just speed this, speed that, and speed the other thing?

 

After a while, you come to realize that there is no point in even trying these side matches.

 

 

I have finally twisted my head on right to figure out that all 'speed' events at SASS matches are not to fictional replicate a gunfight in the street, or at a card table (pocket pistol) , where you only have one shot at coming out alive,,, but rather, a pure raw contest of how fast humanly possible a shooter can run his/her firearms, on 'that' given day. With that, the 'speed' events are pretty much slated to the 2%'er of the crowd to win. Anyone else can try to see how far behind they are to the fast guns. With that concept in mind, I chance my opinion, open the gates and let whomever shoot as much as they want.

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To clarify, I'm for shooting as much as you like. Most of us are shooting the side match primarily for fun and a sort of warm up. As such it is nice to be able to experiment a bit to try to improve your time.

 

And it is fun to watch the all the shooters demonstrate their skills.

 

In the past, we had the I won it and I bought it. The I won it was based on the first time through while the I bought it was the fastest time, whenever.

At many shoots, we don't have to "buy" it because we can shoot as many side matches for one price - or even included in the match fee.

 

The problem with the two awards was that it took more time to give the awards and of course increased costs for awards. But it is still a nice idea. And the awards presentation has to take a little more planning.

 

As to not being able to shoot the side match, it was NOT due to top shooters, but a few local contests where two or three totally monopolized the event - and that was several years ago. I have not seen it lately, so sorry if I offended folks with the comment.

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If you told any lay person that you were in a speed shooting contest what would they ask. "Who shot the fastest?"

 

What would they say if you said shooter A won but shooter B had the fastest time. "How can shooter A win if shooter B was the fastest?"

 

Almost like explaining rank points...... :(

 

The winner should always be "who shot the fastest" in a timed event.

 

Stan

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If you told any lay person that you were in a speed shooting contest what would they ask. "Who shot the fastest?"

 

What would they say if you said shooter A won but shooter B had the fastest time. "How can shooter A win if shooter B was the fastest?"

 

Shooter A placed shot in the boiler of the bad guy and Shooter B hit the big toe.

 

Almost like explaining rank points...... :(

 

The winner should always be "who shot the fastest" in a timed event.

 

Stan

I don't know!

 

I would want to know who shot the disabling shot and was able to walk away.

 

Some old timer from the past said, to the effect...." In a gun fight, take all the time you need, but do it quickly".

 

The winner could be the second place in time.

 

I guess I look at it in a more practical reference, of which SASS has nothing to do with that. but just a dream game that has to deal with real guns.

 

Carry on.

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A lay person wouldn't know that you get unlimited tries untill you finally have one perfect run. I guess we really aren't identifying the best shooters in the main match, even when using total time, since you only get to shoot each stage once. Smokin Gator

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How many of you that are keeping up with this thread think it really matters if its the 1st run or 21st run when you go up against the Deuces, Stans, Red Knee's etc.... at side matches.

 

This level of shooters abilities are exceptional on their 1st run and only get better as they warm up a little.

 

Here's a little secret that I will share:

If you want to be competitive with Santa Fe River Stan, Deuce, Red Knee, Two Gun Tuco, Copperhead Joe, Prestidigitator, Arcadia Outlaw, etc.... at the side match Speed 97 event, practice up about 20-30,000 (yes, thousand) dry fire runs with your 97 for about 5 months before the match. And continue your practice for future matches because they're gonna probably get faster also.

 

If you wait until side match day to be at that level of competition, your 10-12 trips to the firing line will fall short about 30,000 warm up runs.

 

The SLOWEST runs of the top shooters still beat the fastest times of most other competitors.

 

So if you want to make it a nightmare of rules and guidelines for Side Match Speed Events, have at it. The outcome is still gonna be the same.

 

From my saddle, thats just the way it is.

 

 

..........Widder

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The speed this that and the other thing seem to be popular, and are expected, so when all is said and done, leave them as is, they are a part of the game.

 

But I have also seen, for example, pocket pistol and derringer accuracy matches, where the person closest to the bullseye/smallest grouping wins. That would be a nice addition to EOT

 

Or how about something like a 10-10-4+ type side match, but where it's a 2-5-5-4+ instead?

 

2 with the derringer

5 with the pocket pistol

5 with with a .30-30 or a .45-70 or some similar such rifle

4+ shotgun.

 

Or... Well, any myriad of ideas where you mix things up with different guns used in different ways.

 

No way I'd run the above idea all that fast, but I'd enjoy shooting it, just for the chance to go bang and clang with something different, for example.

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It hasn't been a big deal in the past at many matches to recognize both. First run for the trophy than as many chances as you want for the pot. Both are going to be won by one of the top shooters, of course. It's great to watch a few great shooters going back and forth beating one another's scores. But, the top shooter on the first run through deserves to be recognized. Smokin Gator

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If you really feel cheated in how EOT match was run, you would likely have a lot higher probability of really effecting any change in the next EOT by contacting the folks that run the match off line directly instead of crying on the internet. Folks that are capable of making a change like you would like to not follow the SASS Wire, no wonder why. I would start by contacting the SASS office to get phone numbers or email addresses of those that will be in charge of EOT 2017.

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If you really feel cheated in how EOT match was run, you would likely have a lot higher probability of really effecting any change in the next EOT by contacting the folks that run the match off line directly instead of crying on the internet. Folks that are capable of making a change like you would like to not follow the SASS Wire, no wonder why. I would start by contacting the SASS office to get phone numbers or email addresses of those that will be in charge of EOT 2017.

This was not started because I felt "cheated" and nobody needs to get their panties in a wad over any of the words written. People are just expressing their opinions of which they have every right. It is not personal nor an afront to anyone. Match Directors may find this discussion interesting in how they set up theirs in the future and yes I have spoken directly, respectfully and at length to some. It is just a game and I will continue to play regardless of the rules.

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Well this thread has shown me that CAS is essentially the same mindset as idpa except with more gear. Any idea other than that of the speed sheeple is considered a threat to the collective homeostasis.

 

 

Your comments to Allie Mo were just plain wrong and disrespectful. Maybe if your reread it a bunch of times you'll come off swift enough to recognize your mistake?

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Well this thread has shown me that CAS is essentially the same mindset as idpa except with more gear. Any idea other than that of the speed sheeple is considered a threat to the collective homeostasis.

 

 

Your comments to Allie Mo were just plain wrong and disrespectful. Maybe if your reread it a bunch of times you'll come off swift enough to recognize your mistake?

Once you have played this game a while you will find that there is a lot more to it than has been discussed in this thread. And as far as the speed sheeple comment, we are discussing events that are literally called SPEED events, so yeah.....

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The speed this that and the other thing seem to be popular, and are expected, so when all is said and done, leave them as is, they are a part of the game.

 

But I have also seen, for example, pocket pistol and derringer accuracy matches, where the person closest to the bullseye/smallest grouping wins. That would be a nice addition to EOT

 

Or how about something like a 10-10-4+ type side match, but where it's a 2-5-5-4+ instead?

 

2 with the derringer

5 with the pocket pistol

5 with with a .30-30 or a .45-70 or some similar such rifle

4+ shotgun.

 

Or... Well, any myriad of ideas where you mix things up with different guns used in different ways.

 

No way I'd run the above idea all that fast, but I'd enjoy shooting it, just for the chance to go bang and clang with something different, for example.

HK,

Nothing wrong with kicking around new ideas for side-matches. Look for input, refine it, and try it out at your annual match. Not as a replacement, but as an addition. See how it goes. If it catches on, it will spread to more venues. Have at it! You could even specify it as one an done, just like a plainsman match. Or, whatever you can think up. Go for it!

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When discussing speed items, naturally your "speed sheeple" are gonna chime in and post info based on their experience, knowledge and opinions.

 

Likewise, if you are discussing black powder, your 'BP sheeple' are gonna chime in with their experience, knowledge and opinions.

 

If you have a gunsmith question, your 'Gunsmith sheeple' are gonna chime in with their experience, knowledge and opinions.

 

Examples:

BP vs BP Subs vs Smokeless

Federal primers vs Winchester

Short barrel pistols vs. long barrel pistols

Marlin vs 73 vs 66 vs 92

slingshots vs Henry Big Boy

Levis vs Wrangler

 

etc..........

 

 

..........Widder

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Ooh! Ooh! Black Powder Sheeple 007.gif Me! Me! roflkickin.gif

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:)

 

I knew that 'slight of tongue' would put some humor into this conversation.... :)

 

For me, I'm a GF Sheeple.... :o

 

 

..........Widder

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Well this thread has shown me that CAS is essentially the same mindset as idpa except with more gear. Any idea other than that of the speed sheeple is considered a threat to the collective homeostasis.

 

 

Your comments to Allie Mo were just plain wrong and disrespectful. Maybe if your reread it a bunch of times you'll come off swift enough to recognize your mistake?

That's a pretty broad paint brush you are using. Seems to be equally divided amongst one and done as well as run until you have no ammo. So could that brush be used to paint the picture of those who want it the way is always been? This year EOT once again had more shooters.

 

Let's look at numbers. About 660 Cowboy shooters at the World championships and about 20% clean. 80 Wild Bunch shooters and 0, zero, zilch clean. Which one seems to be expanding? Change is inevitable. I don't think that all these young guns would enjoy shooting 40-50 second stages so the sport has to adapt to grow. Perhaps the great folks you referred to as speed sheeple are actually a threat to others perfect world.

 

It really is just a game. I just show up and shoot, if it stops being fun, I may take up needle point!

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How many of you that are keeping up with this thread think it really matters if its the 1st run or 21st run when you go up against the Deuces, Stans, Red Knee's etc.... at side matches.

 

This level of shooters abilities are exceptional on their 1st run and only get better as they warm up a little.

 

Here's a little secret that I will share:

If you want to be competitive with Santa Fe River Stan, Deuce, Red Knee, Two Gun Tuco, Copperhead Joe, Prestidigitator, Arcadia Outlaw, etc.... at the side match Speed 97 event, practice up about 20-30,000 (yes, thousand) dry fire runs with your 97 for about 5 months before the match. And continue your practice for future matches because they're gonna probably get faster also.

 

If you wait until side match day to be at that level of competition, your 10-12 trips to the firing line will fall short about 30,000 warm up runs.

 

The SLOWEST runs of the top shooters still beat the fastest times of most other competitors.

 

So if you want to make it a nightmare of rules and guidelines for Side Match Speed Events, have at it. The outcome is still gonna be the same.

 

From my saddle, thats just the way it is.

 

 

..........Widder

Well said.

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Sorry I forgot about the broad brush sheeple. That was narrow of me not to include you guys too. I apologize.😘😅

 

 

You got wrapped up in the glory of being sheeple and FORGOT TO APOLOGIZE to Allie Mo, who has in my experience been very dedicated, level headed, and even handed in her volunteering to moderate. All things I am not. I don't know her personally, but through her demonstrated actions I have come to respect and admire her. You're wrong to be so dismissive and disrespectful no matter how talented you are in this particular discipline of shooting.

 

Aww man, I just realized I probably won't ever be a Jedi now...😱not that I ever had the talent to begin with😂...I'm still having fun with my six-guns and that's what matters to me.

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Really, apologize for disagreeing? I didn't read an insult anywhere except that "Sheeple"? Really? That truly what you think of cowboy action shooters? Shooters using 19th century arms & dress. Picking unique & one-of-a-kind aliases, and this is the name you pick? I don't think mindless followers to be appropriate adjectives in describing cowboy action aficionados.

 

Tis human nature to want to go faster, higher, farther, to excel. Can't we discus the rules, boundaries and parameters for such without derogatives?

 

T'would be a boring waste if everyone did as I do... stop in the middle of a stage and ask, "...am I going too fast?" Heck as slow as I am, I'm still waiting on the opportunity to shoot the "World Record Stage." Why I might even try it at full speed! Why if as a Frontiersman, I miss the World Record speed, I'll try again... harder...

 

 

Just remind me that if I ever get the opportunity to shoot with Deuce, to hand off the timer or spotting stick... I'm too slow t keep up!

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Sorry I forgot about the broad brush sheeple. That was narrow of me not to include you guys too. I apologize.😘😅

 

 

You got wrapped up in the glory of being sheeple and FORGOT TO APOLOGIZE to Allie Mo, who has in my experience been very dedicated, level headed, and even handed in her volunteering to moderate. All things I am not. I don't know her personally, but through her demonstrated actions I have come to respect and admire her. You're wrong to be so dismissive and disrespectful no matter how talented you are in this particular discipline of shooting.

 

Aww man, I just realized I probably won't ever be a Jedi now...😱not that I ever had the talent to begin with😂...I'm still having fun with my six-guns and that's what matters to me.

It's funny, name calling is not generally permitted here, yet somehow I bet this one is "overlooked".

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Ooh! Ooh! Black Powder Sheeple 007.gif Me! Me! roflkickin.gif

Bah bah

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You got wrapped up in the glory of being sheeple and FORGOT TO APOLOGIZE to Allie Mo, who has in my experience been very dedicated, level headed, and even handed in her volunteering to moderate. All things I am not. I don't know her personally, but through her demonstrated actions I have come to respect and admire her. You're wrong to be so dismissive and disrespectful no matter how talented you are in this particular discipline of shooting.

 

Aww man, I just realized I probably won't ever be a Jedi now...😱not that I ever had the talent to begin with😂...I'm still having fun with my six-guns and that's what matters to me.

If I even thought I was offensive to Allie I would apologize but I don't believe you will find anything offensive in my comments. Besides, I am just an average shooter that has fun shooting and I'm okay with that!

 

Allie, if I was dismissive or rude to you, please let me know. That would not be appropriate.

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I do not intend offense by the classification of anyone as sheeple. I am merely making the observation that there is a herd mentality in effect where one goes others follow without independent thought. Those that choose to disagree are chastised, dismissed and in some cases informed of the error of their ways in a less than polite manner. I'm not going to let it go unchecked. After all, isn't the cowboy way to stand up for what one believes is right? I believe everyone's opinion has value, but don't think for a second an entitled person telling me no or that I'm wrong will sway me in the least if I believe I am righteous.

Have a great weekend!

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I do not intend offense by the classification of anyone as sheeple. I am merely making the observation that there is a herd mentality in effect where one goes others follow without independent thought. Those that choose to disagree are chastised, dismissed and in some cases informed of the error of their ways in a less than polite manner. I'm not going to let it go unchecked. After all, isn't the cowboy way to stand up for what one believes is right? I believe everyone's opinion has value, but don't think for a second an entitled person telling me no or that I'm wrong will sway me in the least if I believe I am righteous.

Have a great weekend!

No offense but, you people are just blindly following without any independent thought. Did I read that right? SMDH......

 

That would be like me saying, no offense, but you are an idiot.

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Carolina Gunslinger, I appreciate your kind words. It means more than most people would imagine, unless they knew about my "ruler on your knuckles." :o;) You Sir, know how to take a critique that was intended to be constructive.

 

About the Sheeple comment, I've been chastised for allowing Phantom to use it, in fact, I think he was the first to use it here. Several people on this thread have even lobbied for his return despite his repeated use of that kind of demeaning language. That said, CG, don't make me get my ruler. :)

 

Big Iron, I cannot imagine you being anything other than a gentleman. I'm so glad I got to meet you. Thank you for your concern!

 

This thread has digressed greatly from the simple preference Blazen Vaquero expressed, which did not insult anyone other than to imply :unsure: that maybe someone would, as Marauder suggested, monopolize the event. Anyone who tries 20 or 30times to beat the best time, might only get lucky enough to win after that many tries, just like the person winning with one shot. That is turning it over to luck not skill. Maybe, BV's post has brought forward something that does need fixing. I'm not in the one shot and done camp. However, 5 to 10 would be more reasonable than 20 to 30 attempts.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

 

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I've only read about 5% of this thread, so probably others have said this, but I'll just add my vote. I don't do sidematches because I'm not fast, but I know it's fun for the fast guys, so the more they get to shoot (compete), the more enjoyable and exciting. But first try best time is just as important in my mind. Recognize and reward them both. It will also be interesting to see how close those two times are.

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I've only read about 5% of this thread, so probably others have said this, but I'll just add my vote. I don't do sidematches because I'm not fast, but I know it's fun for the fast guys, so the more they get to shoot (compete), the more enjoyable and exciting. But first try best time is just as important in my mind. Recognize and reward them both. It will also be interesting to see how close those two times are.

Hi Abilene.

 

With a 97, port arms, 4 KD's: 1st run for a top shooter would be about 3.80 to 4.00 +/-

 

Same shooter, 5th run, it would be about 3.50 or so.

 

Same shooter, 10th run, it could go anywhere from 2.80 to 3.10

 

All this is in relation to target distance and spacing, etc...

 

If you have a 'long gun on table' start, it gets unpredictable because the table height can be an advantage or disadvantage depending upon the height of the shooter in relation to the table.

 

Port Arms, 6 KD's: 1st run about 6.00

5th run about 5.60 or even better

10th run could venture into the upper 4's or low 5's.

A REAL GOOD run for a top shooter could get into the 4.50 range or less.

 

 

Strictly my opinion, but a mediocre shooter is gonna be mediocre on nearly every run.

BUT, a high performance shooter running on High Octane will show a decrease in time of a measurable degree.

This is one of the reasons a number of shooters will stand by and watch the Borgs play. They get to pick up shooting tips and ask questions. And don't forget a few videos are being taken also.

 

Best regards

 

p.s. - And Ms.Allie KNOWS that ole Widder would never cast an insult or bad comment in her direction.

 

 

..........Widder

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