Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Hard Cash

.45 Cowboy Special Brass

Recommended Posts

All I can say is "I'm glad I bought 500 pieces of brass when I did". They'll last forever using BP in a pair of 3rd Gen Colts. I'll continue using the 44-40s in the rifles.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a email I got on August 27th

 

Russ,

 

Thank you for your inquiry regarding American Cowboy Ammo .45 Special. You can purchase .45 Special from the dealer listed below. We apologize in the delay getting back to you, we were delayed in getting a distribution

network set up; Centerfire Systems will have product to ship in about 10 days.

 

Centerfire Systems, Inc.

Versailles, KY

www.centerfiresystems.com

800 950 1231

-------- Original Message --------

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought enough thinking they would last me for quite some time. Intended use was for a WB rifle round. But, with the demise of readily available C45S brass, I've regulated them to cowboy rounds out of the Colt SAAs.

 

Same with me Griff.

 

I use them in my Ruger .45's only.

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since my wife has 2 Spur .45CS short stroke Marlins, I am hoping to find a supply/source. I have about 3500 in circulation, and another 2K waiting, but you can't have too much gold.

 

CR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://youtu.be/mnAugari3_A

 

This guy is making short work of these 38's lol

 

BD

After seeing the video Buckshot linked earlier, I purchased the Drill attachment and pilot for .45 for my forster trimmer. I am nowhere near as fast as the guy in the video yet, but it works well. I am now a happy camper cutting down .45 Colts. I would have never gone this route if new brass was available for purchase instead of just loaded ammo. But now I am making my own. Problem solved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ms Culbbie didn't sell 100,000 thousand pieces over some period of time. If you resell 100,000 of something that costs a dime for 20 cents you only make $10,000 before any overhead. Why would you expect someone in the ammo business to bother with empty cases ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After seeing the video Buckshot linked earlier, I purchased the Drill attachment and pilot for .45 for my forster trimmer. I am nowhere near as fast as the guy in the video yet, but it works well. I am now a happy camper cutting down .45 Colts. I would have never gone this route if new brass was available for purchase instead of just loaded ammo. But now I am making my own. Problem solved.

You know, I bought the Lyman trimmer and the drill attachment and I been making my own as well. It aint fast, but it does work considering how many 45LC brass I have, it just makes sense. But it will take me awhile to get 500...so far I have made around 100.

 

BD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ms Culbbie didn't sell 100,000 thousand pieces over some period of time. If you resell 100,000 of something that costs a dime for 20 cents you only make $10,000 before any overhead. Why would you expect someone in the ammo business to bother with empty cases ?

 

I figure the owner/vendor should go where the most demand is at this time.

 

I wonder just how many NON Cowboy shooters are going to walk into the local gun store and ask for some Cowboy .45 Special ammo. And I wonder more about how many gun stores will even carry it.

 

Anyhow, if the owner makes 100,000 pieces of loaded ammo and sells 20,000 pieces with a profit of .25 cents per piece, they've made $5,000.

 

If they sell 50,000 EMPTY pieces of brass with a profit of .10 cents per piece, they've made $5,000.

 

Would you rather sit on 80,000 pieces of loaded ammo that NoBody wants to buy or 50,000 pieces of brass that will probably sell quicker to a select group of shooters, like Cowboy Action shooters.

 

And I would be surprised if even 20,000 pieces of Loaded C45S will sell. Cowboy shooters are already trimming their .45 Colt brass, which would have been an immediate sell for the C45S brass owners.

 

Now, I don't claim to know and understand business tactics with any great degree. But I think I know the path I would take if I owned the brass.

 

And, if the new owners can't produce profit and try to sell the business, nobody will want to buy it because of the lack of interest. And the lack of interest has been self generated by the new owner themselves.

 

I could be wrong in all my assumptions, but I do know what is being talked about among Cowboys who use the C45S brass..... And I'm getting to see a certain attitude on the Wire also about buying or making their own.

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not argue about how much loaded cs might be sold, but its sure that you could make more as a Walmart greeter than selling cs brass to maybe 2% of all 20,000 cowboys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Prior to AJ introducing the Cowboy 45 Sepcial, I was asking the same case dimensions from both 45 Schofield and 45 Colt cases. Called it the 45 Squirt. I had about 2500 cases. When the C45S came out, I gave my hand made cases away to friends, intending to replace them with C45S. That didn't go well. I probably have 1500 C45S, but I've started making my own 45 Squirt from 45 Schofield as I have a use for the larger rim. I don't know beans about retail business (like Widder) and have no clue about profit and loss. I just know, I wanted another thousand C45S. Now that I'm making my own Squirts again, I don't care if the twit starts to market brass or not. His loss.

It's just a shame the guys and gals who would really like to shoot the short cases and don't have the stuff necessary to make their own are

"stuck." It takes a lot of brass to amortize the cost of a trimmer and drill. Even longer for a power trimmer.

 

Coffinmaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is a lot more potential out there than 2%. Our club usually have around 30 shooter. 4-5 of us shoot 45 Colt every time and some others occasionally. I also shoot some at another range and the percentage is about the same. All of these 45 Colt guys are potential C45S customers. They don't get on the Wire and had never heard of a C45S. I often get quizzed about the case at loading and unloading table. Some have said, "I'm going to pick me up some of them.". I explain that they were only available through one source and I offer to give them contact information. I think Fingers McGee is the only other C45S shooter that shoots at our club and I think he only uses them in conversion cylinders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is a lot more potential out there than 2%. Our club usually have around 30 shooter. 4-5 of us shoot 45 Colt every time and some others occasionally. I also shoot some at another range and the percentage is about the same. All of these 45 Colt guys are potential C45S customers. They don't get on the Wire and had never heard of a C45S. I often get quizzed about the case at loading and unloading table. Some have said, "I'm going to pick me up some of them.". I explain that they were only available through one source and I offer to give them contact information. I think Fingers McGee is the only other C45S shooter that shoots at our club and I think he only uses them in conversion cylinders.

I use the C45S cases in a pair of 3rd Gen Colt's with black powder loads. One of these days I might buy a conversion cylinder for the one and only 58 Remington I have.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't hear of anyone (common shooter) wanting to step up and pay the money up front to purchase the minimum order from Starline + pay whom ever to the Owner of the rights to,,,, 45CS.....++++++go into the business of taking orders, packaging, shipping, ect to get rid of the surplus.

 

Just saying..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Checked on ACAmmo web site today. It does have pretty pictures............no pricing still! And another month slips by! I wish them the best :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't hear of anyone (common shooter) wanting to step up and pay the money up front to purchase the minimum order from Starline + pay whom ever to the Owner of the rights to,,,, 45CS.....++++++go into the business of taking orders, packaging, shipping, ect to get rid of the surplus.

 

Just saying..

Just goes to show that you don't hear everything that goes on behind the scenes.

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think all parties actually involved have found that proverbial 'rock and a hard spot'. It would not do much good to criticise the vendor, though I think they did not research the market for this item very well. At best this is an almost flat-line return on investment with a long term investment of capitol to get that small return. I do think marketing the empty brass would have moved the product slightly faster than any other scenario but it still is not a very enticing market plan. Their must rely on the idea that SASS shooters will accept their single offering just to have c45s in their guns OR buy it with the idea of burning it up in order to accumulate the brass for reloading. People do use this idea for a few exotic SASS calibers, 45/75 or etc, but these are frequently calibers that require a smaller amount of brass on hand for long term shooting that regular match shooting requires. As I said earlier, the best case scenario for the c45s seems to have missed its window for the average user and I do not expect to see it hanging around for very long. Lets just wait and see how long the new owners can watch a fair sized investment set around before having to sell at a possible loss just to get some return on investment and by then I do not think anyone would dare invest in the neat little.45 case again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally got a response about the cost of the loaded ammunition. The retailer of the loaded c45s ammunition is Center Fire Solutions. They want $44.99 for a box of 50 rounds. Haven't found out bullet size and type, powder type or velocity yet though.

 

Fingers (Show Me Mo smoke) McGee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally got a response about the cost of the loaded ammunition. The retailer of the loaded c45s ammunition is Center Fire Solutions. They want $44.99 for a box of 50 rounds. Haven't found out bullet size and type, powder type or velocity yet though.

 

Fingers (Show Me Mo smoke) McGee

I'm guessing there would be a hazmat charge and shipping on top of that?

 

Even if that price includes all shipping that would make them 90 cents each.

 

The last brass I got from Miss Cubbie ran 30c and loaded with my stuff 40c total.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I predict the new owners will lose $$$ if they continue to only sell in this manner.

 

I don't have a crystal ball, but I just don't see where there is a market for this ammo except for Cowboy Action Shooters AND..... I can't believe there will be that many Cowboys pay this price to own this brass.

 

AND... even if a few Cowboys were to buy it, they wouldn't buy any great amount because 50-100 pieces will last awhile.

 

I've been using only a couple hundred pieces the past couple years and haven't had but a couple splits to discard. It last thru quite a few reloads.

 

I'll still stand by my previous post in that their loaded stuff will sit on store shelves (although FEW it may be) and they will see no return in their investment. They may be forced to sell the empty brass just to brake even.

 

And some marketing genius may be looking for a new job in the near future.

 

I normally don't like to criticize in a strong manner, but this is a true debacle. For now, the new owners are putting all their eggs in one basket. And we all know that ain't very wise.

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought 250 cases from Miss Cubbie when they were selling them.I don't shoot 45s at all.I have loaded a few rounds and have shot them in a friends gun.I have given away some cases to a few cowboys.They make great reloads for over the top on 73s and 66s.The shorter round is a little harder to pull from your belt but a lot easier to load in your rifle.As soon as I can find a nice case trimmer I want to make some of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I predict the new owners will lose $$$ if they continue to only sell in this manner.

 

I don't have a crystal ball, but I just don't see where there is a market for this ammo except for Cowboy Action Shooters AND..... I can't believe there will be that many Cowboys pay this price to own this brass.

 

AND... even if a few Cowboys were to buy it, they wouldn't buy any great amount because 50-100 pieces will last awhile.

 

I've been using only a couple hundred pieces the past couple years and haven't had but a couple splits to discard. It last thru quite a few reloads.

 

I'll still stand by my previous post in that their loaded stuff will sit on store shelves (although FEW it may be) and they will see no return in their investment. They may be forced to sell the empty brass just to brake even.

 

And some marketing genius may be looking for a new job in the near future.

 

I normally don't like to criticize in a strong manner, but this is a true debacle. For now, the new owners are putting all their eggs in one basket. And we all know that ain't very wise.

 

 

..........Widder

Practically the same can be said about them selling just the empty brass. A very small market and once the few cowboys purchase a couple hundred here, a couple hundred there, then they will be sitting on an inventory with their money tied up. Sad to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Practically the same can be said about them selling just the empty brass. A very small market and once the few cowboys purchase a couple hundred here, a couple hundred there, then they will be sitting on an inventory with their money tied up. Sad to say.

 

I agree. Thats why I thought it was strange to put all their 'eggs in one basket'.

 

Well, I have an ample amount that I use only in my Rugers. I've set up a Marlin for the C45S but I really don't shoot it in SASS matches. I have some of the C45S brass loaded to .45 ACP SUPER specs, using 185 Gold Dot HP's that I use in my 1894 Marlin (Widdermajik). Its a nice little round. My 1894 has a 16.25" Octagon barrel and will hold 11 of those hot little C45S rounds.

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another variable that a pard brought to my attention this morning is that some Pard, somewhere, will start 'cutting .45 Colt brass' for a nominal fee if the buyer supplies their own brass.

 

This would be a great savings for a lot of Pards and little extra business for some enterprising Cowboy.

 

This could spell doom and gloom for the present owner of the C45S brass.

 

;)

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another variable that a pard brought to my attention this morning is that some Pard, somewhere, will start 'cutting .45 Colt brass' for a nominal fee if the buyer supplies their own brass.

 

This would be a great savings for a lot of Pards and little extra business for some enterprising Cowboy.

 

This could spell doom and gloom for the present owner of the C45S brass.

 

;)

 

 

..........Widder

 

That's exactly what I suggested 5 pages ago. :huh: Seems like if you could do 4 or 5 a minute, times 60 minutes, at fifteen cents apiece, that would come to 36 dollars an hour. Pretty good money with no taxes if you ask me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Their price for the loaded C45S ammo doesn't seem too out of line, considering. Take Black Hills ammo, for example. Cimarron sells BH .45LC and .45S&W for $40.53 per box. 44-40 is $41.93. And they sell a lot of it. Mostly a box or three at a time, to people who do not reload (and are not cowboy shooters. Believe it or not, a goodly percentage of vintage firearm reproduction sales are to people whe do not do CAS). Somebody calls up and says, boy that 250gr .45LC ammo really kicked, do you have anything lighter? And if there comes another ammo crunch when .45LC is hard to find, the C45S ammo will fly off the shelves like Schofield ammo did before. And if this ammo company makes a bunch of other calibers, then their eggs aren't really all in just one basket. Obviously not what reloaders want, but time will tell if their business plan was wise or not. In the beginning of BH 44 Colt that I mentioned earlier, people HAD to buy it if they wanted to shoot their ASM conversions for those first two years, whereas people don't HAVE to buy this C45S ammo, so they can't count on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what is so wrong with the 45 Schofield platform for a reduced 45 handgun caliber load.....for Cowboy???? It is plentiful... Why, I don't know. It is a dinasour too.

 

45CS is/was a novalty,,, Good idea... but when I reach for a 45cal (non CAS useage) Revolver, I want more that a 45ACP performance.

 

With that thought,, what other cartridges are still being manufactured (live/new empty brass) that are easily obtained, but why? :huh: 38& 32 Short Colt, 32 S&W, 23-35, and many others come to mind.

 

Let's see where this Bunny Trail leads us. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we need is for some intrepid machinist type to make a one step cutter that would cut to length and do a deep neck relief trim at the same time to make this a one step job. You could then do your choice of case rim, the small Colt size or the larger Schofield rim size when making your own brass (just change collets to suit). The more universal the cutter could be made the better, I do not know enough about such to know whether something like the LEE system or the more expensive machine/hand powered tool mount models would work best but I do think a minimum of being mounted in a good drill press fixture should be expected for production work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have found that the collet system used by Forster on their trimmers is by far the better way to go about it. I have both the Forster and a Lyman, and find the Forster system is simply the better system. I have the power adapters on both brands.

 

If using Scofield brass, and you need to trim the rims, that's a separate operation. Easily accomplished on a lathe. Trying to get some sort of set-up to do both rim and length trimming at the same time, simply isn't practical, at least for the home shop.

 

I have found that you are far ahead of the game, if you cut the 45 Colt cases off to near correct length as a separate operation, before trimming to exact length. Believe it or not, this can easily be accomplished using an easily made jig, and a QUALITY tubing cutter. This saves wear and tear on your trimmer cutters, and will increase their life many times over. Once all that extra length is removed, precision cutting them to exact length is very easy and very fast.

 

Reading this thread piqued my interest, and caused me to investigate just what it would take to make those cases, and how to do it the easiest and most efficient way. The solution I found is both relatively fast, and very efficient. I probably can produce about 50 cases per hour, without rushing anything. Plenty fast for the average CAS shooter.

 

RBK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know Ruger makes the New Vaquero in a convertible. You get one 45 colt cylinder and one 45acp cylinder you get a pair of those and just shoot light 45acp loads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

45 ACP is not a total answer. It's my understanding it can't be used in some categories. The C45S can be used in a 45 Colt revolver without the extra expense of a second cylinder. The C45S can cycle through a Marlin 45 Colt rifle with carrier change and timing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

45 ACP is not a total answer. It's my understanding it can't be used in some categories. The C45S can be used in a 45 Colt revolver without the extra expense of a second cylinder. The C45S can cycle through a Marlin 45 Colt rifle with carrier change and timing.

Looks like Classic Cowboy is the only one.

And of course Frontiersman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot of good reasons for shooting the 45 ACP in revolvers. I nearly went that way when there was no C45S cases available. I had the dies, ACP brass and 200 grain bullet mold, etc. The cylinders for my Cattleman revolvers would cost about $100 each. They are higher now. But I also had everything to load 45 Colt. So I could mix and match dies and shell plate and load C45S with only a learning curve.

 

I could see that the 45 ACP would be appealing to people who also shoot wild bunch. But I'm betting if you load 45 ACP with enough power to reliability cycle a 1911, they would be much stouter than you could load for cowboy loads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The c45s is actually a great little powder saving cartridge for those who want to shoot something closer to the power levels used before the big 45colt or 44W came into being. I seriously doubt anyone wanted to get in front of a rifle or pistol chambered for the short stout 44 Henry at close range. With the cost of reloading for smoke going so high over the last few years it is a great solution BUT I do not want to put it all back into the cost of brass. Had I known, it would have been easier to just develop an arsenal around the 44 Russian in the beginning. I did talk with Hap many years ago about trying to rechamber a 44W Henry rifle to 44spec and put one of his chamber adapters into it, but then I would have needed extra cylinders for my revolvers. If I can come up with a workable way to do it I would be glad to cut the cord and start making my own brass from my stock of 45colt brass. With the right set up I am betting one could turn out a years worth of brass in perhaps little over a weeks worth of winter evenings. Since I do not have any experience with the tooling involved, I do not know what the up front cash would run but I am guessing that it would be recouped within the first or second season??? In my opinion being a Wart Hog has little to do with the mental set or the needs of a working cattleman or law man of the mid to late 1800s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.