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Hard Cash

.45 Cowboy Special Brass

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Well I just came in from creating a handful of C45S brass, loaded it with Clays powder, and will give them a try come Saturday.

 

I used 45 ACP dies to load with but you would need a crimp die for 45AR cases to do a roll crimp. I used 200 gr. FN 45 LC bullets to load them with, and used a 45 ACP Taper crimp die, which applied a heavy taper crimp, so no movement of the bullets will occur.

 

I first shortened the cases on the lathe, leaving then a few thousands long. Then ran them thru my Forster case trimmer that trimmed them to spec with great and absolute uniformity. The rest was just standard reloading procedures as would be done with factory C45S brass.

 

I used Winchester Brass, and after being shortened, the wall thickness only ran 10-1/2 to 11 thousands and so no problems will occur from wall thickness. Everything mike's like standard 45 LC dimensions, other than OAL , so fit will be a cinch.

 

Looks like the C45S cases won't be that hard to make after all.

 

RBK

 

Kid,

 

sounds like you got a good plan. Good job.

 

For a good roll crimp, I trimmed (cut the bottom portion off) up a roll crimp die from Redding and use it for a nice roll crimp on my C45S loads.

This was a couple years back and I didn't know about the AR Roll Crimp die.

 

 

..........Widder

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For a good roll crimp, I trimmed (cut the bottom portion off) up a roll crimp die from Redding and use it for a nice roll crimp on my C45S loads.

This was a couple years back and I didn't know about the AR Roll Crimp die.

 

 

..........Widder

I did the same. Because I had an extra, was in a hurry and too cheap to buy another die.....

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I just load mine in pistols & use the ACP taper die. Has worked for 5 years.

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I just load mine in pistols & use the ACP taper die. Has worked for 5 years.

I'm also running C45S in my Marlin. I'm thinking maybe sometimes the ACP style crimp that leaves a ledge may be catching on the top of the chamber as it feeds in.

 

Pistols don't care as long as bullet doesn't jump.

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I just got to chime in here and say I'm surprised and disappointed. All this time all I've heard is real Cowboys shoot large caliber heavy loads. But here is page after page of these large caliber guys talking about this Highly desirable brass so they're 45s feel like 32s. Shocking I say , just shocking. 😮

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Actually, I dearly love my 32 H&R Mag. Baby Vaquero's. For me it's not all about muzzle blast, fire belching, recoil punching, hand numbing, ear splitting, and shoulder bruising that makes this game fun. In fact it's quite the opposite.

 

RBK

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I just got to chime in here and say I'm surprised and disappointed. All this time all I've heard is real Cowboys shoot large caliber heavy loads. But here is page after page of these large caliber guys talking about this Highly desirable brass so they're 45s feel like 32s. Shocking I say , just shocking. 😮

Well, first off, the vast majority of CAS are hell and gone from qualifying to be real cowboys - in the old west era or today. My 200g loads roll out at above 800 fps. Not moose killing loads but there is no doubt when they hit steel.

 

Fingers McGee and I were at the loading table at last match when we were listening to a rifle being fired at stage down range. The sound was about like a hand clap. Fingers commented that his cap guns just busting caps was louder.

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What is the .45 cowboy special brass used in?

45 Colt revolvers and rifles modified to shoot such a short round.

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45 Colt revolvers and rifles modified to shoot such a short round.

Actually, the revolves need no modification to shoot C45S. The Marlin 1894 requies the carrier to be modified to feed it through an otherwise stock 1894. Widdowmaker Hill is the acknowledged grand wizard of this mod and a general going over of the action.

 

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MOST,

 

well, now that you got the local natives all riled up, my .32 H&R 'Godzilla' loads should take some of the shock out of you. After all, I shoot a heavy 78 and 82 grain bullet in it..... :lol::lol::lol:

 

See ya at GOA

 

 

..........Widder

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And check out this video of what a Widdermajik (first rifle) and a Widdermatic (2nd rifle) are all about.

 

Notice the variances of OAL used in the WIddermajik.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

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This is what I don't understand about this particular business practice of American Ammo.

 

its my understanding that they are required by Starline to order MINIMUM qualities of brass.

 

AA knows how many they are wanting to produce as loaded stuff.

 

Why not order more from Starline and sell just the extra brass to us..... the public.

 

Its a Win-Win situation for them. Otherwise, most of us are going to wait it out and eventually buy it when it does become available.

 

But I surely ain't gona buy any of it already loaded up.

 

Sell me empty brass..... or sell me nothing at all.

 

Whoever at AA decided on this plan is gona be feeling bad when their pet ammo sells nearly nothing. PLUS, I won't be surprised if even vendors buy any to stock on their shelf because it is not a common item for your everyday, non-cowboy, shooter.

 

I predict a big failure on their part.

 

 

..........Widder

Suspect that some bean counter decided the profit margin was greater on loaded ammo vice selling empty cases.

 

Guess when he got his MBA he skipped the classes about demand vs supply

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Well I just came in from creating a handful of C45S brass, loaded it with Clays powder, and will give them a try come Saturday.

 

I used 45 ACP dies to load with but you would need a crimp die for 45AR cases to do a roll crimp. I used 200 gr. FN 45 LC bullets to load them with, and used a 45 ACP Taper crimp die, which applied a heavy taper crimp, so no movement of the bullets will occur.

 

I first shortened the cases on the lathe, leaving then a few thousands long. Then ran them thru my Forster case trimmer that trimmed them to spec with great and absolute uniformity. The rest was just standard reloading procedures as would be done with factory C45S brass.

 

I used Winchester Brass, and after being shortened, the wall thickness only ran 10-1/2 to 11 thousands and so no problems will occur from wall thickness. Everything mike's like standard 45 LC dimensions, other than OAL , so fit will be a cinch.

 

Looks like the C45S cases won't be that hard to make after all.

 

RBK

Welcome to the stubby case world! After you try the Clays, you might consider Trail Boss with 160 Gr pellets! They work extremely well in pistols, but can't advise on how they run in the rifles. ;)

I do use a 45 ACP roll crimp die from the early 80's to get a good crimp. Added bonus with the C45S case is you can't overload it when using Trail Boss, trust me on that! ;)

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So what is the exact OAL. of C45S? Anyone know off hand? And I guess if you were going to trim them, can you just use the 45 ACP trim length? Or what exactly?

 

BD

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So what is the exact OAL. of C45S? Anyone know off hand? And I guess if you were going to trim them, can you just use the 45 ACP trim length? Or what exactly?

 

BD

They are intended to be same OAL as 45 ACP. But it hardly matters as you're going to be shooting them in 45 Colt chambers as they headspace on the rim and not the mouth. They need to be uniform length and real close to 45 ACP length to use 45 ACP dies.

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Actually, the revolves need no modification to shoot C45S. The Marlin 1894 requies the carrier to be modified to feed it through an otherwise stock 1894. Widdowmaker Hill is the acknowledged grand wizard of this mod and a general going over of the action.

 

I should have been more clear. Revolvers don't have to be modified.

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I should have been more clear. Revolvers don't have to be modified.

I have been shooting the Cowboy Specials in my NM Vaqueros for 6 or 7 years. Bought all my original brass from AJ and then bought some more from Miss Cubbie. I shoot only 160gr in front of a full case of BP.....it is not a wimp load! Sure it is less recoils than the full length brass, but it still makes lots of smoke and does better than lots of .38's knocking down steel. I use normal .45's in my 73's, full cases of BP & 200 grainers.

 

What a mess this has turned out to be. Luckily I have about 3,000+ pieces of Cowboy Special brass. Probably last me the rest of my life as there is very little case mortality due to slitting and I don't lose it either.

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Shooting them in my Cattleman hardy expands them at all. They really balloon out when fires through my Marlin. It would be the same if it were 45 Colt cases.

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I don't shoot .45 anymore so don't really have an interest but if I was younger with more entrepreneurial spirit and fortitude I see quite an opportunity here. If someone were to come up with a way to trim .45 Colt brass down to size and deburr it in the same operation they could have a very good product that would be in demand. Whether it would enrich them in the long term to make it worthwhile is the question. Maybe that's why the new owners of the CS45 decided to sell it as loaded ammo only. After watching the YouTube video of the guy doing the .38 short brass I think that after the first few thousand or so you'd be sick of it and not want to do much more of it.

 

Surely there is some enterprising engineer type amongst us that could come up with a way to automate the operation and fill this obvious void.

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Surely there is some enterprising engineer type amongst us that could come up with a way to automate the operation and fill this obvious void.

;)

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Warden, I would go with the RT1500 Dillon as it is much more heavy duty. Designed to make 300 Blackout from 5.56 cases. A lot of trimming. Even shortening Schofield cases requires taking more than .200 off of each case. But I am not sure if the Dillon will trim a case that large in diameter.

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Warden, I would go with the RT1500 Dillon as it is much more heavy duty. Designed to make 300 Blackout from 5.56 cases. A lot of trimming. Even shortening Schofield cases requires taking more than .200 off of each case. But I am not sure if the Dillon will trim a case that large in diameter.

 

Like this?

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Yes, sir. I have been looking to see if it could be adapted to a case as short as the ACP/CS.

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So what is the exact OAL. of C45S? Anyone know off hand? And I guess if you were going to trim them, can you just use the 45 ACP trim length? Or what exactly?

 

BD

.898 trim to length. That's the same as 45 ACP

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Starline produced some large amount for Miss Cubbie and she sold it down to whatever was left when she sold the rights to the name. Marketing and advertising it was pretty much word of mouth here on the Wire. That should give a company like Starline a clue as to the potential market for the case. Think how many more might be sold if it were a catalog item for them and available through their normal distribution channels like MidwayUSA, etc.

 

At every match I shoot, someone at the loading tables question me about the case. Not that every one of these people would be potential customers but it just shows a lack of exposure the case has gotten even in the SASS community.

 

I wanted to stay out of this thread, but now feel I need to set the record straight....

 

When we first thought of selling the brass business, Starline was the first place we spoke to. They were NOT interested! They just want to produce it. What we bought from AJ were the rights to the head stamp. Starline will only produce it for the owner of that head stamp, no one else. Their minimum order is for 100,000 pieces a year.....we did not meet that requirement.

 

When we sold the business, I hoped the new company would continue to sell empty brass as well as loaded ammo. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case right now. Maybe if there is enough of an outcry, they will reconsider. :(

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Thank for the update.

 

It's looking like back in the Prohibition era, people will be making their own in their basement, garage, old school bus buried in the ground way back in the sticks. Back to it's beginnings.

 

P.S. It was a pleasure doing business with you.

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Has anyone thought about ask'n 'Top-Brass' if they would produce this special case?

(800) 836-4683

 

OLG

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This is not the same situation, but it reminds me of .44 Colt. When Armi San Marco first started producing .44 Colt conversions in the '90's, there was no brass. You couldn't cut down .44 Spcl or Mag brass unless you also reduced the width of the rim for those guns. So Black Hills Ammo made a deal with Starline, and Starline made the ammo exclusively for Black Hills for 2 years, then started selling the brass to the public. For those two years, buying Black Hills ammo was the only way to get brass for those conversions.

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In what looks to be a drought of C45S brass, there are ways of making C45S out of 45 Colt. In this example I'm using Lee trimmer tools and a small lathe to cut down 45 Colt cases. The Lee cutter and base costs about $8.00. The 45 ACP and 45 Colt pilot/gauge cost $5.40 each. So for less than $20, not including shipping or tax, you can be set up to convert brass.

 

I used two cases out of my scrap bucket that had bad crack at mouth. They were also bolloned out. I think new cases or ones in good shape, maybe sized and expanded, would work much better. These are the second and third case I've cut down using this setup. I can see more RPM works better than slow. I used a lathe because I have one. A hand drill or maybe even a drill press could be used.

 

C45S were made by cutting back 45 Colt cases before they were factory made. There are many trimming tools that could accomplish the same end.

 

I'm working on a setup to reduce the rim thickness on 45 AR casss. But I'm still in the concept stage.

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Back before there was a Miss Cubbie, I spoke with at least thee individuals who operated small Cowboy related business and were considering buying the rights to the C45S brass. We all know at least two of these guys and the other is well know on one of the other cowboy sites. All pretty much gave me the same facts concerning their reasons for not jumping in. I do remember there was a high entry level minimum purchase, as stated by Miss Cubbie, though I did not remember the annual purchase requirement. I got the impression that what seemed to scare these guys off most was a lack of protection as stated by Miss Cubby. They feared that anyone could simply buy the same brass by just using a different case head stamp, perhaps they had a lack of understanding that Starline would not produce this brass for anyone else, even using a different company name??? Each one agreed that this would never be a stand alone product that could float a small business. Even Starline refuses to step up and support this cartridge without someone else serving as the front man. I would really like to know what Starlines annual sales run on some of the more defunct calibers they market AND remember, the smaller orders, the more the mark-up.

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In what looks to be a drought of C45S brass, there are ways of making C45S out of 45 Colt. In this example I'm using Lee trimmer tools and a small lathe to cut down 45 Colt cases. The Lee cutter and base costs about $8.00. The 45 ACP and 45 Colt pilot/gauge cost $5.40 each. So for less than $20, not including shipping or tax, you can be set up to convert brass.

 

I used two cases out of my scrap bucket that had bad crack at mouth. They were also bolloned out. I think new cases or ones in good shape, maybe sized and expanded, would work much better. These are the second and third case I've cut down using this setup. I can see more RPM works better than slow. I used a lathe because I have one. A hand drill or maybe even a drill press could be used.

 

C45S were made by cutting back 45 Colt cases before they were factory made. There are many trimming tools that could accomplish the same end.

 

I'm working on a setup to reduce the rim thickness on 45 AR casss. But I'm still in the concept stage.

Lee actually has a new cutter that uses your press, a power drill, and your original shell holder for 45 Colt, you no longer need the special shell holder.

 

All you need is the Deluxe Power Quick Trim...

 

http://leeprecision.com/deluxe-power-quick-trim.html

 

and the 45 ACP cutter die...

 

http://leeprecision.com/45_acp_qt_die.html

 

and you can cut your 45 colt down to ACP length and use your 45 ACP dies and voila....the new cutter actually even chamfers as well as trims...

 

 

BD

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Lee actually has a new cutter that uses your press, a power drill, and your original shell holder for 45 Colt, you no longer need the special shell holder.

 

All you need is the Deluxe Power Quick Trim...

 

http://leeprecision.com/deluxe-power-quick-trim.html

 

and the 45 ACP cutter die...

 

http://leeprecision.com/45_acp_qt_die.html

 

and you can cut your 45 colt down to ACP length and use your 45 ACP dies and voila....the new cutter actually even chamfers as well as trims...

 

 

BD

Yes, there are many number of ways to skin this cat. I had the cutter, the 45 Colt set and just added the 45ACP kit for less than $6. Oh yea, the lathe too. If I were going to do more than a few, I'd investigate and invest in more productive tools. Every reloading company make trim tools. It's kind of like race cars, how fast you want to go depends how much you're willing to spend.

 

Do you think the Lee Delux power trimmer would work on a Dillon 550? Cutting 45 Colt down to 45 Cowboy is going to make a lot of chips.

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