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.45 Cowboy Special Brass

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Would it be possible to cut the excess off the back side of the rim?

Yes, it is possible and probably the better way. I can send pics later of a jig you could use in your lathe to do so. If shortening 45 Colt brass is working for you, though, that is probably best. Save all of the slightly split or damaged Colt cases and make what you need out of them!

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Callaway,

If shortening the cases only increased the case wall thickness by .001, then doing a final crimp with a Redding Profile Crimp die would probably render the extra thickness to no consequence, and would fit standard 45 Colt cylinders just fine.

 

I have a Forster case trimmer that would make final case length and uniformity a cinch. I have a pretty large assortment of 45 LC cases, so finding the brand with the least thickening after trimming would be prudent.

 

That brand case did you use for your experiment?? Sounds like that brand would work fine. PM me with that info.

 

I'll cut a couple down and finish them out and then load them using my Redding die, then see how the finished round fits and functions.

 

If this works out well, it will then make the C45S case easy to re-work from 45LC brass.

 

RBK

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.45 auto-rim is cheaper, all you have to do is thin the case head with one 'pass' in a lathe. ;)

Wonder if you can safely deepen the primer pocket enough??

--------

Has any one call'd Starline and got'n info for a min. order for this case?

OLG

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Thanks. So I guess if one were committed to shooting a shorter case they could always remove material from the cylinder and go with the 45AR. But there would be no going back to 45 Colt in that instance. I do wonder what keeps someone from ordering whatever the minimum is from Starline? If the C45S name is trademarked, then why would you not be able to head stamp 45 Cowboy, 45 Short Colt, 45 Special, etc.?

Goody, looooong before (somewhere around 1998/9) there were 45cs, I cut ,45 Colt cases down to .45 ACP length and ran them for a very long time till I switched to .38's.

I still have about 4000 of them. I NEVER had a problem with them (won a lot of matches w/them), still shoot them every now and then.

I was most likely shooting them I first shot around/with you, in 7 1/2" Colt's.

I Use ACP dies and roll crimp, no problems at all.

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The whole case thickness debate continues, while the hundreds I have cut down from Colt cases continue to work well. I have Mic'ed dozens of different head stamps and continue to see about .0005 to .001 wall thickness difference. I have cut probably 15+ brands , have yet to find that it makes any appreciable difference!

But remember........ this is my experience, your brass may vary! ;)

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So for you fine fellows that are cutting cases down to length. How much would that job be worth? Would 2 1/2 cents per seem reasonable, $25 per thousand. There are those of us that do not have the patience to do tedious tasks such as this. Not that I'm ADD or anything, I'm just lazy. ;) Seems with lack of available new cases someone could do a tidy, tax free business and make themselves some beer money. The demand for the shorter case is certainly there.

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Yes, it is possible and probably the better way. I can send pics later of a jig you could use in your lathe to do so. If shortening 45 Colt brass is working for you, though, that is probably best. Save all of the slightly split or damaged Colt cases and make what you need out of them!

I have one pound coffee can full of scrap brass. I pulled out 5-6 that were split all the way down the side before finding a couple with cracks at mouth only. So the amount of usable 45 Colt cases out of my junk can is not going to be of much help. I do have a couple 2-3 hundred old cases that have been reloaded I don't know how many times. And 500 new Starline cases still in a virgin state waiting in my hoard.

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.45 auto-rim is cheaper, all you have to do is thin the case head with one 'pass' in a lathe. ;)

OLG

Yea..... except for the primer sticking up out of the now shallow primer pocket! Like RBK pointed out, you need to deepen the pocket as well, which there isn't enough material at the bottom of the pocket to allow deepening the bore any substantial amount, not to mention that it becomes extremely thin at best, or bored through hole at worst!

Not trying to rain on the 45AR party, but I have already tied and failed at that endeavor!

Like Texas John Ringo, I thought I was the only one with the idea 20+ years ago, but Adirondack Jack... and others were playing with the idea as well!

 

 

Don't spend the time whittling on expensive revolver cylinders, it's much cheaper and less permanent to whittle on cheap used brass cases......IMHO :)

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So for you fine fellows that are cutting cases down to length. How much would that job be worth? Would 2 1/2 cents per seem reasonable, $25 per thousand. There are those of us that do not have the patience to do tedious tasks such as this. Not that I'm ADD or anything, I'm just lazy. ;) Seems with lack of available new cases someone could do a tidy, tax free business and make themselves some beer money. The demand for the shorter case is certainly there.

I can buy today at Grafs in Mexico, Missouri Starline 45 Colt brass at $.23/ea - close to $25/100 with tax. Larger quantities would be a little less. The last C45S I got from Miss Cubbie was $80/250 delivered. That works out to be $.32/ea. So no, I won't be cutting 45 Colt brass down at that small cost savings. But if I can't get brass without buying loaded ammo that we don't yet know what it's going to cost, then I'll start cutting.

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Yea..... except for the primer sticking up out of the now shallow primer pocket! Like RBK pointed out, you need to deepen the pocket as well, which there isn't enough material at the bottom of the pocket to allow deepening the bore any substantial amount, not to mention that it becomes extremely thin at best, or bored through hole at worst!

Not trying to rain on the 45AR party, but I have already tied and failed at that endeavor!

Like Texas John Ringo, I thought I was the only one with the idea 20+ years ago, but Adirondack Jack... and others were playing with the idea as well!

 

 

Don't spend the time whittling on expensive revolver cylinders, it's much cheaper and less permanent to whittle on cheap used brass cases......IMHO :)

Cut the excess thickness off the back side of the rim - not the head. I'm no machinist so I can't figure out how to hold the case to accomplish this. But that looks to be how the factory does it.

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I can buy today at Grafs in Mexico, Missouri Starline 45 Colt brass at $.23/ea - close to $25/100 with tax. Larger quantities would be a little less. The last C45S I got from Miss Cubbie was $80/250 delivered. That works out to be $.32/ea. So no, I won't be cutting 45 Colt brass down at that small cost savings. But if I can't get brass without buying loaded ammo that we don't yet know what it's going to cost, then I'll start cutting.

 

I think you missed the point of my question. In real time, today, there is no C45S brass available. There has been none on the market, at least in appreciable quantity, for over a year. If a cowboy wants a comparable case right now, today, he/she has to cut down 45 Colt cases. I was asking how much someone thought they might charge to do this, in say 1000 case lots. Customer provides their own brass for the surgery, customer pays shipping to and from.

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Yea..... except for the primer sticking up out of the now shallow primer pocket! Like RBK pointed out, you need to deepen the pocket as well, which there isn't enough material at the bottom of the pocket to allow deepening the bore any substantial amount, not to mention that it becomes extremely thin at best, or bored through hole at worst!

Not trying to rain on the 45AR party, but I have already tied and failed at that endeavor!

Like Texas John Ringo, I thought I was the only one with the idea 20+ years ago, but Adirondack Jack... and others were playing with the idea as well!

 

 

Don't spend the time whittling on expensive revolver cylinders, it's much cheaper and less permanent to whittle on cheap used brass cases......IMHO :)

You are absolutely correct, and I did over look that vital detail. :blush:

SORRY-

OLG

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Cut the excess thickness off the back side of the rim - not the head. I'm no machinist so I can't figure out how to hold the case to accomplish this. But that looks to be how the factory does it.

Well Duh on me...... :lol: That would address the primer pocket depth! Now how to set up each case in a jig on the lathe???

Think I will leave that up to the smart machinist here on the wire ;)

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Well Duh on me...... :lol: That would address the primer pocket depth! Now how to set up each case in a jig on the lathe???

Think I will leave that up to the smart machinist here on the wire ;)

Captain,

Send me your email address. I will send pics of a jig to do just that.

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Remember fellas, whatever you end up attempting................ think it through and be CAREFUL :huh: Give us all a chance to shoot with one another somewhere down the trail! Lets not have a post about "loading projects gone wrong"

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PM sent Boggus

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Well Duh on me...... :lol: That would address the primer pocket depth! Now how to set up each case in a jig on the lathe???

Think I will leave that up to the smart machinist here on the wire ;)

Use a collet lathe and bore a collet to allow the case head to extend about .250" out the front and do the underside case head cut with a flat cut-off tool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collet.

OLG

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I just got a reply from American Cowboy Ammo on the availability of brass only. Here is the important part.

 

"American Cowboy .45 Special loaded ammo will be available very soon. Due to the shortage of American Cowboy .45 Special empty brass cases, only loaded .45 Special loaded ammo will be available, check with your local dealer."

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Way back in the Way back, at the time AJ was developing the C45S case, I was busy at the same idea, but with 45 Schofield cases as the base supply. Using a case trimmer that could be attached to an electric drill motor and a carbide cutter, I made thousands of cases. It's

mind numbing boring and tedious. I wouldn't begin to do it for someone else. It's that boring. Then, after cutting, you have to de-burr the new case mouth. Also some boring. Helps to have some football on TV.

 

After cutting thousands of cases without ever looking a head stamps, I had precisely ZERO problems using either 45 Colt or 45 Schofield

cases to little fat cases for CAS. Dillon 650 press, standard 45 Colt shell plate, 45 ACP die set, EXCEPT for the crimper. Since I use these cases in Toggle Link Rifles, and with BP, a roll crimp is necessary. I use a Redding 45 Auto Rim roll crimp die. Again, ZERO problems loading or using cut-down 45 Colt or 45 Schofield cases.

 

Coffinmaker

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I think you missed the point of my question. In real time, today, there is no C45S brass available. There has been none on the market, at least in appreciable quantity, for over a year. If a cowboy wants a comparable case right now, today, he/she has to cut down 45 Colt cases. I was asking how much someone thought they might charge to do this, in say 1000 case lots. Customer provides their own brass for the surgery, customer pays shipping to and from.

Ye, I would be interested in sending a couple hundred cases to somneone to have em cut down for sure

 

BD

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Cut the excess thickness off the back side of the rim - not the head. I'm no machinist so I can't figure out how to hold the case to accomplish this. But that looks to be how the factory does it.

In which case the length of the brass is longer, and you'll either need to trim the excess length or reset your dies to accommodate the longer brass... kinda defeating the ease with which one now loads C45S. .022" ain't much, but...

DSCN0759.jpg

These are a mix of Starline & R-P headstamps .45Colt... Since I didn't load them, I don't know the exact process, but it looks like they may have been run thru a sizing die after seating... But, they just drop into my Colt chambers... which were cut to minimum specs, so I'll know they'll run thru my rifle barrel, which are typically cut on the large size.

 

I'll be testing them in the Marlin this weekend @ a WB match...

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I believe OAL of case is same for both. If so, trimming the backside of the rim should not affect loading die settings.

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I believe OAL of case is same for both. If so, trimming the backside of the rim should not affect loading die settings.

 

Think it through, Yusta. ;)

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I believe OAL of case is same for both. If so, trimming the backside of the rim should not affect loading die settings.

45AR = .9004

45ACP = .898

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45AR = .9004

45ACP = .898

That is .0024 difference, right? Less than 2 1/2 thousandths? I bet a batch of factory brass varies more than that. You wouldn't have to change any settings for that....

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I'm missing something - this shows AR OAL to be .898 - .020

http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/45%20Auto%20Rim.pdf

 

or am I reading it wrong?

Nope. You are exactly right..... And ACP says the same, if I remember correctly.

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ACP shows .898 - .010 not the same tolerance is different , but the nominal length is the same.

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Goody - I'm pretty sure taking a slice off the case mouth side of the rim doesn't change the OAL

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Looks like there are two feasible ways to make 45 "SASS" brass.

 

Start with 45 Colt cases and cut/trim them down. I'd think anyone who can reload should be able to do this with power case trimming tools. A trimmer connected to power would be the only practical way. LEE makes simple tools to connect to drill for less than $20. Redding makes a trim die for about $31 that will need an $8 extended shell holder. Just push case into die like sizing it and cut off what sticks out. About every brand makes some kind of power trim system.

 

Starting with 45 AR is anything animal. Reducing the rim thickness requires a lathe, as far as I can see. Boggus Deal has set up and reduced the rim thickness on other cartridges using a jig. This inspired me to try some ideas. One looks feasible but I need 45 AR cases and a better cutting bit to give it a real try.

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Enough variances that I'll stick to what I know works. Some folks have said that 45AR works in their revolvers... it don't in mine... I don't have a lathe, if I need it, I'll be trimming 45 Colt. Otherwise, I'm hoping that American Ammo will be having some brass for sale, (whenever it is that I'll actually need some).

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Well I just came in from creating a handful of C45S brass, loaded it with Clays powder, and will give them a try come Saturday.

 

I used 45 ACP dies to load with but you would need a crimp die for 45AR cases to do a roll crimp. I used 200 gr. FN 45 LC bullets to load them with, and used a 45 ACP Taper crimp die, which applied a heavy taper crimp, so no movement of the bullets will occur.

 

I first shortened the cases on the lathe, leaving then a few thousands long. Then ran them thru my Forster case trimmer that trimmed them to spec with great and absolute uniformity. The rest was just standard reloading procedures as would be done with factory C45S brass.

 

I used Winchester Brass, and after being shortened, the wall thickness only ran 10-1/2 to 11 thousands and so no problems will occur from wall thickness. Everything mike's like standard 45 LC dimensions, other than OAL , so fit will be a cinch.

 

Looks like the C45S cases won't be that hard to make after all.

 

RBK

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This is what I don't understand about this particular business practice of American Ammo.

 

its my understanding that they are required by Starline to order MINIMUM qualities of brass.

 

AA knows how many they are wanting to produce as loaded stuff.

 

Why not order more from Starline and sell just the extra brass to us..... the public.

 

Its a Win-Win situation for them. Otherwise, most of us are going to wait it out and eventually buy it when it does become available.

 

But I surely ain't gona buy any of it already loaded up.

 

Sell me empty brass..... or sell me nothing at all.

 

Whoever at AA decided on this plan is gona be feeling bad when their pet ammo sells nearly nothing. PLUS, I won't be surprised if even vendors buy any to stock on their shelf because it is not a common item for your everyday, non-cowboy, shooter.

 

I predict a big failure on their part.

 

 

..........Widder

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This is what I don't understand about this particular business practice of American Ammo.

 

its my understanding that they are required by Starline to order MINIMUM qualities of brass.

 

AA knows how many they are wanting to produce as loaded stuff.

 

Why not order more from Starline and sell just the extra brass to us..... the public.

 

Its a Win-Win situation for them. Otherwise, most of us are going to wait it out and eventually buy it when it does become available.

 

But I surely ain't gona buy any of it already loaded up.

 

Sell me empty brass..... or sell me nothing at all.

 

Whoever at AA decided on this plan is gona be feeling bad when their pet ammo sells nearly nothing. PLUS, I won't be surprised if even vendors buy any to stock on their shelf because it is not a common item for your everyday, non-cowboy, shooter.

 

I predict a big failure on their part.

 

 

..........Widder

I agree, Widder. Most of us who shoot less than common calibers, load our own. They would be much better off just selling brass! I wonder how much even .45 Schofield loaded ammo is sold every year compared to empty brass?

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