Rye Miles #13621 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/03/news/companies/army-gun-new-beretta/index.html?cid=ob_articlesidebarall&iid=obnetwork
Rye Miles #13621 Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 I'd go with the 1911A1. LOL Me too!
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I'd suggest an X-Box control pad for the grips. Seems to be what most 19 year olds already have extensive training to shoot...... Good luck, and make sure you hit what you are shooting at. GJ
Ya Big Tree Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I'd get them a pricing gun. On what the military pays the soldiers now, thay can get a part time job at Walmart.
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 1911 A1, has stood the test of time: Of course they will probably approve some johnny come lately that is no better than the Beretta that they now realize was a mistake. Blackfoot
John Henry Quick Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 1911 A1, has stood the test of time: Of course they will probably approve some johnny come lately that is no better than the Beretta that they now realize was a mistake. Blackfoot The M9 is a hunk of junk - we hated it when we were made to trade in our 1911's and they still hate it today. However, the Glock and M&P pistols are truly examples of modern equals better. My Glock has over 5000 rounds through it without a single failure to feed, fire or eject. How many 1911 owners can say that? How many thousands of hours every year to 1911 owners spent bending extractors, adjusting feed lips, polishing feed ramps and barrel hoods? My Glock simply works no matter what I feed it and for every 1911-owner-turned-Glock owner that can say that, there's an M&P owner that can say the same thing. Time marches on... Fixed 1991 to 1911... :-)
Sedalia Dave Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I would like to see the Sig P226. Prefered by many military special ops teams as well as law enforcement and it has withstood the test of time.
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 We preferred the p220 when I was in. P226 works too, but I always preferred the bigger round. ABG though, anything but glock.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Didn't the Marines just buy a whole buncha new fangled modern pistols? I forget what they called it, but it is basically, a fancy M1911. Seems like that would be to go.
John Henry Quick Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Didn't the Marines just buy a whole buncha new fangled modern pistols? I forget what they called it, but it is basically, a fancy M1911. Seems like that would be to go. A relatively small number were purchased for MEUSOC operations, but the average Marine rating a handgun still carries the M9.
ShadowCatcher Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 The M9 is a hunk of junk - we hated it when we were made to trade in our 1911's and they still hate it today. However, the Glock and M&P pistols are truly examples of modern equals better. My Glock has over 5000 rounds through it without a single failure to feed, fire or eject. How many 1911 owners can say that? How many thousands of hours every year to 1911 owners spent bending extractors, adjusting feed lips, polishing feed ramps and barrel hoods? My Glock simply works no matter what I feed it and for every 1911-owner-turned-Glock owner that can say that, there's an M&P owner that can say the same thing. Time marches on... Fixed 1991 to 1911... :-) Can't help but agree with you about the M9 pistol, never did like it and it never felt 'natural' when in use. Having said that, I have never seen a stock 1911 fail for the reasons you cite, and I've owned several and competed with several, sometimes as many as 25K rounds in a year through a gun that has NO mods, and only regular cleaning after each use. Many of my fellow shooters probably can cite similar experiences, and just as many with over modified race horses can attest to many breakdowns . . . Sometimes we make it 'better' than we should . . . The basic 1911 design is still quite battle ready, and it's service life in combat conditions is comparable to most other firearms, and just as good as them. My current Colt series 80 Enhanced has sight and trigger improvements, but otherwise has no tightening or modifying of components, and has never malf'd in the last 15 years, some 9-10K rounds of practice and training shooting. Neither has my BHP or my Kahr, but that's a different discussion! The short coming the 1911 has is that the great white father has visions of a Dial-a-gun, something that can have everything from racing tires, mud flaps, curb finders and depth gauges attached, along with lights and bells and whistles. This gun don't do that very well. Rail gun versions abound, and there are probably sound tactical reasons for it, but in any event that is the reason that I think the 1911 is probably not going to re-enter into service. They want a modular do everything sorta okay gun. Damn shame really, but hopefully it will at least have a big bullet coming out of it! But I could be wrong . . . . Shadow Catcher
John Henry Quick Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Can't help but agree with you about the M9 pistol, never did like it and it never felt 'natural' when in use. Having said that, I have never seen a stock 1911 fail for the reasons you cite, and I've owned several and competed with several, sometimes as many as 25K rounds in a year through a gun that has NO mods, and only regular cleaning after each use. Many of my fellow shooters probably can cite similar experiences, and just as many with over modified race horses can attest to many breakdowns . . . Sometimes we make it 'better' than we should . . . The basic 1911 design is still quite battle ready, and it's service life in combat conditions is comparable to most other firearms, and just as good as them. My current Colt series 80 Enhanced has sight and trigger improvements, but otherwise has no tightening or modifying of components, and has never malf'd in the last 15 years, some 9-10K rounds of practice and training shooting. Neither has my BHP or my Kahr, but that's a different discussion! The short coming the 1911 has is that the great white father has visions of a Dial-a-gun, something that can have everything from racing tires, mud flaps, curb finders and depth gauges attached, along with lights and bells and whistles. This gun don't do that very well. Rail gun versions abound, and there are probably sound tactical reasons for it, but in any event that is the reason that I think the 1911 is probably not going to re-enter into service. They want a modular do everything sorta okay gun. Damn shame really, but hopefully it will at least have a big bullet coming out of it! But I could be wrong . . . . Shadow Catcher You are luckier than anyone I have ever known. The 1911 is famous for needing the feed ramp and barrel hood polished in order to feed semi-wadcutters and the 1911 made the term "stovepipe jam" famous. Also, Wilson made a mint on selling magazines that feed properly (as well as holding 8 rounds) and there's a ton of instructions out there on how to make your magazine feed properly and drop freely. Then again, there's the "break-in period" that you'll never hear in relation to a Glock or M&P. Since 1979 I've owned (in order) a nickle Combat Commander, a Gold Cup, a Randall stainless steel government model (that was a big deal then), and a Springfield Armory. I've shot IPSC and USPSA on and off since the late 80's and feeding failures and stovepipes are a common sight. I only wish that I had been as lucky as you with even just one of the one's I've owned.
Cypress Sun Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I'm a big fan of the .45 ACP and the 1911 platform but I think the FN 5.7 would make a much better choice than any 9mm or the .45 ACP. The pistol and round has been extensively tested by both NATO and the US Military. I know that some (maybe all) will disagree with my assessment but there it is. CS
jrswanson1 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 A gunsmith friend put it best. A milspec 1911 using military ball ammo is as reliable as a Glock.
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I have never had problems with my 1911's but of course I don't jack them up to the level of some. I haven't experienced the problems that some seem to have with "highly tuned" pistols that are running ammo that is way out of the realm of their design. I guess my philosophy is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Notwithstanding, I do like a nice trigger and smooth operating pistol. I just haven't felt the need for one with everything pushed to the max. (yes, I do also have a Glock, haven't shot it in a long time) Your mileage may vary, Blackfoot
Duncan Disorderly Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I doubt the issue will be polymer vs metal...the MP and Glock are striker fired, the 1911 and M9 hammer. I would that would be the bigger issue. I want a glock, have an MP9 and XDM9 and prefer the XDm over the M&P although there is very little practical differences.
John Henry Quick Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I doubt the issue will be polymer vs metal...the MP and Glock are striker fired, the 1911 and M9 hammer. I would that would be the bigger issue. I want a glock, have an MP9 and XDM9 and prefer the XDm over the M&P although there is very little practical differences. Some of my friends in USPSA have told me that after trying the different grip angle of the XD, they switched over to it, though functionally there's precious little difference between an XD and a Glock. I was always happy with my Glock 34, but after I started into CAS I sold it to pay for more cowboy toys. I kept my G26 for carry and my youngest carries an XD. Whatever makes you happy is what you ought to carry...
Tom Bullweed Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 This is old news. When S&W introduced the M&P .45 with a thumb safety about three years ago, the intended target was the US military. I think that it is interesting that only the US military sees pistols as offensive and important weapons. Most militaries use pistols only for self-defense and as a badge of service. I read years ago that the Nazi military saw the caliber carried in opposite proportion to the rank of the officer: generals carried .32s and soldiers carried 9mms. The real question, before which pistol, is which cartridge? 9x19mm in the NATO round. .45 ACP is the proven warhorse. With so many recruits coming into service with little or no shooting experience, I tend to think that the military will stay with the smaller round though they might try to increase the effectiveness.
Chili Ron Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 Howdy, How about this. We supply 9mm ammo and .45acp ammo in equal ammounts. We tell the troops to buy whatever sidearm they like that shoots either round. For one thing the whining ought to stop. (It takes a lot to stop whine) For another the taxpayer doesn't have to pay for some new whiz bang sidearm. And the military gets to hand out the current guns, 1911 or that other thing, until they all wear out. Just a thought. Best CR
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 You are luckier than anyone I have ever known. The 1911 is famous for needing the feed ramp and barrel hood polished in order to feed semi-wadcutters and the 1911 made the term "stovepipe jam" famous. Also, Wilson made a mint on selling magazines that feed properly (as well as holding 8 rounds) and there's a ton of instructions out there on how to make your magazine feed properly and drop freely. Then again, there's the "break-in period" that you'll never hear in relation to a Glock or M&P. Since 1979 I've owned (in order) a nickle Combat Commander, a Gold Cup, a Randall stainless steel government model (that was a big deal then), and a Springfield Armory. I've shot IPSC and USPSA on and off since the late 80's and feeding failures and stovepipes are a common sight. I only wish that I had been as lucky as you with even just one of the one's I've owned. The military does not shoot down loaded wadcutters. Military ball ammo will feed reliably until you get too tired to pull the trigger. CR
John Henry Quick Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 The military does not shoot down loaded wadcutters. Military ball ammo will feed reliably until you get too tired to pull the trigger. CR That's true MOST of the time. It's equally true that the old stovepipe jam far predates the H&G 68 mold. It's also true that Colt and USGI mags were famous for not dropping freely and needed to be polished on the sides to get them to drop properly. We've come a long way since the old government model, but truly reliable .45's are a relatively new thing - for many, many years it took a gunsmith to make them so. I've owned several and I do love the 1911, but those guys that think that technology hasn't improved in the last 103 years (or 109 if you want to count the 1905 prototype) are living with their heads in the sand.
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 Book 19, chapter 11, verse 45In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it wasgood. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my discipleJohn's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911,and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, theLord, gave him upon the mountain. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implementsupon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely havemalfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come toharm. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didstforget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribeof the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slidereleases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten thetolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mindbeing clouded by lust. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo,the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaningof the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of theland fell upon it. And lo, they did install adjustable sights, which are an abominationunto the Lord. For they doth break and loose their zero when thou dostneed true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in greatnumbers by their enemies in the great battle. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought byman and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to comeupon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could dono wrong. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of theunderworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didstbring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that theylooked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, theywere consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities ofthem. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make theseplastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they wereunable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols didfunction. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didstboth cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make themappear safe. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didproceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with thetrigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required greatintelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man did not repent of his evil ways, but continued to gloat overthese new pistols blaming Satan for the negligent discharges whichthey themselves had committed. And when man had been totally ensnared with plastic pistol, the lordof the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-BOOM todescend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retributionupon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in theland. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that manwas truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send hismessengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachingsof the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to theirproper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst beginto work as the prophet had intended.
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 The beauty of the Glock and M&P is the ability to teach the basic Armour course in about 8 hours. You can actually teach the full disassembly of a Glock to most anyone in about 10 minutes. All of the parts are drop in and easily changed out with a punch type tool. No fitting or filing required. I think the simplicity, economic and reliability of the new polymer guns would be a vast improvement over that clunky M9.
John Henry Quick Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Book 19, chapter 11, verse 45 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was the pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain. And shouldst thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it. And lo, they did install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and loose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man did not repent of his evil ways, but continued to gloat over these new pistols blaming Satan for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed. And when man had been totally ensnared with plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-BOOM to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended. Yea, verily, I see the light, thou Master of Guns! I see the light!
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Somehow, I knew that this would become a 1911 thread. I shoot a couple of handgun events a month. People can shoot most anything that they want. Spending their own money they predominately choose Glocks in 9mm or 40 S&W. Only rarely do I see a 1911, maybe once every couple of months. So, those who have voted with their pocket book choose polymer. For the record, I shoot an S&W 627 in the Dinosaur class. Almost never see a revolver either.
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Yea, verily, I see the light, thou Master of Guns! I see the light!
Rusty Chains Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Somehow, I knew that this would become a 1911 thread. I shoot a couple of handgun events a month. People can shoot most anything that they want. Spending their own money they predominately choose Glocks in 9mm or 40 S&W. Only rarely do I see a 1911, maybe once every couple of months. So, those who have voted with their pocket book choose polymer. For the record, I shoot an S&W 627 in the Dinosaur class. Almost never see a revolver either. Actually for most of us here the correct box to check is all of the above as far as what we own. While my first firearm of any kind was a 45 and I still have one. It makes vastly more sense for me to choose 9MM than the US.mil. Simply put while I most frequently carry a 9MM Shield because it is very small and light and unlike the .mil folks I can load high performance ammo. The trouble with 9MM hardball is that it tends to ice pick straight through the bad guy. If I was stuck with ball ammo like the .mil folks or the few good people left in NJ I would never carry anything less than a 45. edit: fyngers type out of synch with brain
Backslidin' Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Me 4. I have 3 1911 pistols, all Colts. They are reliable and accurate. They've shot reloads with Unique, Bullseye, IMR 7625, IMR 4756, 800-X, and VV N320. Pistol #1 is a Series 70 that I've had since 1978. I recall that it has jammed only once in all of the years I've been shooting it. The jam was with 230 grain FMJ commercial ammo. It has never jammed with any of my reloads, which are usually 200 grain LSWCs. Pistol #2 is a Series 70 SS that I've had for only a few years. It does not like mid to near max-range loads of IMR 7625. It much prefers near max loads of VV N320. It has never jammed with N320 powder but has with 7625. It is fine with other powders. It is a head scratcher but I haven't worried about it. Pistols #1 and #3 have no problem with reloads made from IMR 7625. Pistol #3 is a Commander XSE SS that is used for personal carry. No jams. I keep it loaded with Hydra-Shok 230 grain JHP ammo. I love my Colts and have never been tempted to stray.
jrswanson1 Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 <--- Prefers 10mm 1911s, the caliber JMB would have gone with if available then. A Dan Wesson Razorback will be mine at some point.
John Henry Quick Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 <--- Prefers 10mm 1911s... Oh, you ARE a glutton for punishment!
Bart Solo Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Although the little FN is well positioned I think the competition will be between Smith & Glock. I think the M&P with its thumb safety will have a leg up with the DoD procurement team. The military always worries about ADs. Glocks seem dangerous in the hands of people who don't practice. Frankly I think that argument is a crock because when a soldier needs a pistol he doesn't need to be distrated by a thumb safety. The real question is caliber. 9 or40 S&W is the choice,
jrswanson1 Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Oh, you ARE a glutton for punishment! I've had two 10mm 1911s, a 1076, and a 610. When I get done fixing all of my vehicles, I'm getting a 10mm upper for my EAA Witness and either the Razorback or the ParaOrdnance 10mm Hunter.
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