LARGE, CLOSE TARGETS?

[Blastmaster]

 

 

We have him cut square holes in the targets and use grade 8 carriage bolts to mount our hanging hardware. Since we started doing that we seldom get splatter back from any of them even at 4 yards.

 

 

 

You are telling us that you have carrige bolt heads (or any other protrusion thingy) protruding out on the face of the steel target that the bullet is impacting upon? If so, then there is a great potential of a zinger bullet that hits the bolt head.

 

[Bad Brass]

I like shooting just about any target. Big targets up close are great confidence builders and let you concentrate on transitions and other such stuff. I do ask that safety is thought out concerning placement and condition of target steel. I've carried around a piece of lead or two that were more than just your everyday backsplash. I've shot at one range that was notorious for back splash and decided not to return. (Mother nature did a redesign on it this year, so I might be back)

 

At the end of the day, I think shooting the same yardage and targets can get a bit boring. I fortunate that living in Michigan I get to shoot many local clubs which are each excellent in their own right and combined they offer a great variety in course design. I like gimmick targets too. Odd shapes, Texas Stars, Plate Racks, Flying birds (clays), Pop can launchers, moving buffalo, snakes on the ground, Poker hands, you name it.

 

Be safe, creative and have fun!

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I like shooting just about any target. Big targets up close are great confidence builders and let you concentrate on transitions and other such stuff. I do ask that safety is thought out concerning placement and condition of target steel. I've carried around a piece of lead or two that were more than just your everyday backsplash. I've shot at one range that was notorious for back splash and decided not to return. (Mother nature did a redesign on it this year, so I might be back)

 

At the end of the day, I think shooting the same yardage and targets can get a bit boring. I fortunate that living in Michigan I get to shoot many local clubs which are each excellent in their own right and combined they offer a great variety in course design. I like gimmick targets too. Odd shapes, Texas Stars, Plate Racks, Flying birds (clays), Pop can launchers, moving buffalo, snakes on the ground, Poker hands, you name it.

 

Be safe, creative and have fun!

 

Great post

 

GG ~

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

 

I see lots of carriage bolt heads on target faces. Not nearly as big a problem as hex bolts or even the end of a round rod hanger.

[Blastmaster]

I see lots of carriage bolt heads on target faces. Not nearly as big a problem as hex bolts or even the end of a round rod hanger.

"Not nearly as big a problem....", is worst than none at all.

 

why go to the time/money/effort of investing in good targets and leaving a potential bullet deflector in the mix?

 

Weld the mounting bracket on the back.

 

Just saying.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

"Not nearly as big a problem....", is worst than none at all.

 

why go to the time/money/effort of investing in good targets and leaving a potential bullet deflector in the mix?

 

Weld the mounting bracket on the back.

 

Just saying.

 

The ability to rotate the plates when they begin to cup is of vital importance to the longevity of plate use.

And plates will cup over time - even the best of steel.

Welding brackets to the back of a plate negates the clubs ability to do use the opposite side and in effect "straighten" or reverse the cupping.

 

For example, my club has two annuals a year and two days of events every month.

That's a fair amount of rounds striking target steel.

If the plates were bracket welded - I would only be able to get half the life out of a plate.

I have learned to take every measure to save equipment and extend it's useful life.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The only time I have seen a target too close was at a major match a few years back. A pistol target was hit on the edge and it turned 90 degreed away from the shooter. Before the next shooter came to the line, the RO grabbed the front edge of the stage, leaned out and straightened the target. It was less than 5 feet.

Our stage run very close to SASS recommendations and we occasionally will get a complaint about them being too far. However when our good shooters are running in the low thirties on our range then they go to a close shoot, they run in the twenties.

uhhhhh...20's...????

 

Shoot only on smallish/farish targets and you'll get whipped at the big matches cuz you'll either shoot too slow (in the 20's), or you'll get sloppy and miss.

 

It's always easier to slow down then speed up. That's why those that shoot bigger/closer targets do well anywhere...and yes, this has been looked at in a scientific way.

 

Phantom

[Blastmaster]

 

The ability to rotate the plates when they begin to cup is of vital importance to the longevity of plate use.

And plates will cup over time - even the best of steel.

Welding brackets to the back of a plate negates the clubs ability to do use the opposite side and in effect "straighten" or reverse the cupping.

 

For example, my club has two annuals a year and two days of events every month.

That's a fair amount of rounds striking target steel.

If the plates were bracket welded - I would only be able to get half the life out of a plate.

I have learned to take every measure to save equipment and extend it's useful life.

And thus, compromising safety because of economics.

 

So, how much compromise in safety is allowable to you and when isn't it?

 

Happens all the time.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

And thus, compromising safety because of economics.

 

So, how much compromise in safety is allowable to you and when isn't it?

 

Happens all the time.

So, a target with a welded bracket will never cause any splash back? Or do you only shoot at paper?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

And thus, compromising safety because of economics.

 

So, how much compromise in safety is allowable to you and when isn't it?

 

Happens all the time.

 

Well, if my matches had the same 5 person attendance as the matches you seem to enjoy so much - my steel would last forever too.

[Blastmaster]

So, a target with a welded bracket will never cause any splash back? Or do you only shoot at paper?

All else being the same... less than.. thus safer.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

OK....

 

All else being the same... less than.. thus safer.

[Blastmaster]

 

Well, if my matches had the same 5 person attendance as the matches you seem to enjoy so much - my steel would last forever too.

Yep, they would. But also, we don't shoot at targets within arms reach,,, but nether far off either.

 

MD could increase entry fee slightly or spend less on trinkets to account for wear & tear & replacement of steel targets when it is worn out.

 

BTW, you didn't define when your steel is unsafe by your standards.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Yep, they would. But also, we don't shoot at targets within arms reach,,, but nether far off either.

 

MD could increase entry fee slightly or spend less on trinkets to account for wear & tear & replacement of steel targets when it is worn out.

 

BTW, you didn't define when your steel is unsafe by your standards.

I've yet to figure out exactly where you do shoot - arms length or otherwise.

And fail to see how you can make any educated statements on my clubs steel placement, since you haven't shot with me or my clubs

(at least in the 4-5 years that I have been setting the steel at Eldorado or in the 13 years I set the steel at Desert Desperados)

 

Increase the fees "slightly" - a sheet of the 4x8 steel that creates 8-10 target plates is $1,300 - $1,500.

I have to have enough steel on hand to set 12+ plus bays of steel - how much should I "slightly" raise my fees to cover the cost of that steel?

Oh yeah and the steel for the brackets and the welding rod and the labor.

 

I get approx. 900 - 1100 shooters a year.

If I raised each one of those shooters event costs $13 per match - it would still take a year to raise the monies for the steel alone.

 

Lastly - steel is unsafe when the steel becomes unpredictable.

Dangerous means divots, pock marks or cupping that throws a round in a direction other than the one chosen by design.

My pistol targets are "generally" hung with brackets bolted to the plate with carriage bolts - I do have some with welded brackets for use with a specific target frame and my rifle targets are hung on a hooked rod thru a hole in the plate.

 

Because of the time I take setting our steel - I "know" the condition of my plates and ensure to the best of my ability that the steel is hung in such a way to direct the lead properly.

And steel that is failing or damaged is removed from the use rotation and disposed of.

 

There is NO perfect method of steel hanging that will prevent all splash; to imply otherwise is a falsehood.

Splash back is much more a statement on the quality of the steel or the angle of plate hang to the firing line than it is on the protrusion of a hanging hook or the presence of a carriage bolt head.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

"Not nearly as big a problem....", is worst than none at all.

 

why go to the time/money/effort of investing in good targets and leaving a potential bullet deflector in the mix?

 

Weld the mounting bracket on the back.

 

Just saying.

 

 

Majority of ours use a welded bracket on the back made of angle iron that slides down on the rebar mounting rod. Front surface is bereft of any protuberances which is the best way to go methinks.

 

 

The ability to rotate the plates when they begin to cup is of vital importance to the longevity of plate use.

And plates will cup over time - even the best of steel.

Welding brackets to the back of a plate negates the clubs ability to do use the opposite side and in effect "straighten" or reverse the cupping.

 

For example, my club has two annuals a year and two days of events every month.

That's a fair amount of rounds striking target steel.

If the plates were bracket welded - I would only be able to get half the life out of a plate.

I have learned to take every measure to save equipment and extend it's useful life.

 

 

We used to have cheaper steel targets that cupped but pitched 'em. The new ones are so thick and of good enuff steel that they no longer cup. If one does get somewhat pocked just cut the bracket off and re-weld on the other side. Grind where the bracket was smooth. We have the advantage of volunteer labor like most clubs. With steel of suitable thickness and hardness cupping is no longer a concern. Good steel pays for itself over time

[Assassin]

I've yet to figure out exactly where you do shoot - arms length or otherwise.

And fail to see how you can make any educated statements on my clubs steel placement, since you haven't shot with me or my clubs

(at least in the 4-5 years that I have been setting the steel at Eldorado or in the 13 years I set the steel at Desert Desperados)

 

Increase the fees "slightly" - a sheet of the 4x8 steel that creates 8-10 target plates is $1,300 - $1,500.

I have to have enough steel on hand to set 12+ plus bays of steel - how much should I "slightly" raise my fees to cover the cost of that steel?

Oh yeah and the steel for the brackets and the welding rod and the labor.

 

I get approx. 900 - 1100 shooters a year.

If I raised each one of those shooters event costs $13 per match - it would still take a year to raise the monies for the steel alone.

 

Lastly - steel is unsafe when the steel becomes unpredictable.

Dangerous means divots, pock marks or cupping that throws a round in a direction other than the one chosen by design.

My pistol targets are "generally" hung with brackets bolted to the plate with carriage bolts - I do have some with welded brackets for use with a specific target frame and my rifle targets are hung on a hooked rod thru a hole in the plate.

 

Because of the time I take setting our steel - I "know" the condition of my plates and ensure to the best of my ability that the steel is hung in such a way to direct the lead properly.

And steel that is failing or damaged is removed from the use rotation and disposed of.

 

There is NO perfect method of steel hanging that will prevent all splash; to imply otherwise is a falsehood.

Splash back is much more a statement on the quality of the steel or the angle of plate hang to the firing line than it is on the protrusion of a hanging hook or the presence of a carriage bolt head.

 

 

8-10 targets out of a 4x8 sheet. Them's some big targets! Most of ours are 16x16 some 16 x 24 and a few 24 x 24.

We cut ours on my plasma table and weld on brackets. AR500 does not drill very easily, how do you drill holes?

 

Assassin

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

We drill ours with a plasma cutter.

[Blastmaster]

I've yet to figure out exactly where you do shoot - arms length or otherwise.

And fail to see how you can make any educated statements on my clubs steel placement, since you haven't shot with me or my clubs

(at least in the 4-5 years that I have been setting the steel at Eldorado or in the 13 years I set the steel at Desert Desperados)

 

Increase the fees "slightly" - a sheet of the 4x8 steel that creates 8-10 target plates is $1,300 - $1,500.

I have to have enough steel on hand to set 12+ plus bays of steel - how much should I "slightly" raise my fees to cover the cost of that steel?

Oh yeah and the steel for the brackets and the welding rod and the labor.

 

I get approx. 900 - 1100 shooters a year.

If I raised each one of those shooters event costs $13 per match - it would still take a year to raise the monies for the steel alone.

 

Creeker, a club doesn't have to cough up money for all 12 stages worth of steel each year. Budget 2-3 stages per year of 'good' targets, after 5-6 years yer up and running with quality steel, Then replace as necessary. As others have mentioned, good steel will probably last longer than 6 years, unless the AR folks get to it. If you would have started this long ago, you would have already been there. It also sounds from other folks that your are using less than ideal steel for the purpose it was intended for. Now, how much would you have to raise the entry fee per shooter day? Don't forget the title to this thread "LARGE CLOSE TARGETS?" If you want them big and close then you got to be more concerned with safety.

 

Lastly - steel is unsafe when the steel becomes unpredictable.

Dangerous means divots, pock marks or cupping that throws a round in a direction other than the one chosen by design.

My pistol targets are "generally" hung with brackets bolted to the plate with carriage bolts - I do have some with welded brackets for use with a specific target frame and my rifle targets are hung on a hooked rod thru a hole in the plate.

 

Because of the time I take setting our steel - I "know" the condition of my plates and ensure to the best of my ability that the steel is hung in such a way to direct the lead properly.

And steel that is failing or damaged is removed from the use rotation and disposed of.

 

There is NO perfect method of steel hanging that will prevent all splash; to imply otherwise is a falsehood.

 

Welding brackets on back is BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICE. I don't think you work in construction/industry, so you probably haven't heard that phrase or even understand it.

 

Splash back is much more a statement on the quality of the steel or the angle of plate hang to the firing line than it is on the protrusion of a hanging hook or the presence of a carriage bolt head.

 

Quality of steel, mounting method, angle of steel and distance are all contributing factors toward safety.

Have you ever witnessed a serious injury (stitches would be the minimum serious injury) from splash/bounce back? I have. Not worth it.

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I just finished paying for 27 16 X 16 targets and 27 16" round targets cut from AR400 steel.

Targets cut to size and 2 holes in the square targets (one center top and one in one corner) and one hole in the round targets.

Total bill including sales tax was $2750.00 which is about $51.00/target

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just curious Ace, why did you decide on ar400 over ar500?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

.

[Hells Comin]

Ok Ok Ok Ok already !!!!!!!

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

welding a bracket on the back weakens the metal, you spend money buying AR then screw it up doesnt make a whole lot of sense

also a lot of times by sliding target onto a post holds target too tightly so it does not ring

welding a bracket on the back means you cant turn it around

just a few reasons why i dont like the weld a bracket on the back of target idea

Regards AO

[Two Spurs]

Thought this kind of fit on this thread. Who in the world would put something like this in the Shooter's Handbook???......... uh...the folks who STARTED this game.

 

Works for me.

 

Shooters Handbook: Page 20-

 

RANGE OPERATIONS

Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not intended to be a precision shooting competition. Small

targets and long distances take the “action” out of the game and make it more discouraging for

newer shooters.

Both experienced and inexperienced shoot

ers want hits on their targets. Some folks just hit (or

miss) a little faster than others. Too many misses, or the perception the targets are too difficult to

hit, discourage folks from continuing to play, especially the less proficient shooters.

Ask an

y experienced Cowboy Action Shooter, and she or he will tell you there is no such thing

as a target too big or too close to miss!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Just curious Ace, why did you decide on ar400 over ar500?

Price....

AR 400 is very usable for out sport. But don't ever try to use a jacketed bullet on it.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

Mine have a welded bracket with one inch hole to fit on 5/8" bar. They hang freely and do not turn on the firing line. Targets should be parallel to the firing line and not parallel to the shooter. The public has on occasion shot them with .270's and such and they are repaired with my wire feed and a grinder which takes 5-10 minutes. No need to turn targets around...

 

Having a stand that allows the target hang slightly top forward will help direct the bullet fragments toward the ground. At times I have felt splash back from bay's with rock or gravel in them which I suspected was the aggregate getting motivated by the bullets or shot going into it.

 

I have welded brackets on the BPCR range and the targets do not cup or need to be turned around as they are angled the same way as the cowboy targets. I do have to weld up .50 holes in them every now and then because of some idiot who just can't resist shooting my targets.

 

This shooting thing is sometimes like work!! Good Shooting!

[Charlie Whiskers]

"Not nearly as big a problem....", is worst than none at all.

 

why go to the time/money/effort of investing in good targets and leaving a potential bullet deflector in the mix?

 

Weld the mounting bracket on the back.

 

Just saying.

 

We get little to NO splatter back from the carriage bolt heads. If anything it deflects the bullet outward rather than back at you. Why go this route, well like has been said, we can swap the brackets to the other side after some cupping starts. We get to use both sides of the steel instead of just the one. Plus like also has been said, why spend a lot of money on AR steel of any grade let alone 400 or 500 and then heat it up welding on it and taking out the tensile strength it had. Might as well use plate steel if you're going to do that. Even a direct center hit on that carriage bolt head doesn't send the bullet back, but outward. All of our targets are set/hung with the bottom of the target about 3-4 inches back of the top of the target, so that gives the bullet a downward path too. We have some targets in AR400 that had the hanger bracket welded on. Those are starting to cup and get some divots. We haven't gotten any divots in the steel with the bolts. Those with the divots we only use now for rifle since they're farther away than the pistol targets. Some have even been delegated to the practice bay.

[Warden Callaway]

Could you use a "plow bolt" with a head designed to lay flat an flush to the sheer?

[Blastmaster]

welding a bracket on the back weakens the metal, you spend money buying AR then screw it up doesnt make a whole lot of sense

 

 

 

Regards AO

I ain't a welder but sure have been around a lot of welders repairing large equipment and welding, if done properly is as strong or stronger than the parent metal you are working with.

 

Your other points are based upon poor design or economics.

 

Folks, I understand your points. Just that safety is being compromised by what some of you are doing and if small modifications were done (budget for target replacement)then it would be safer.

 

As usual, bringing in knowledge and skill from other industrial safety practices will usually not be accepted cause of economics. For CAS clubs, the money is there, but spent on trinkets and other creature comforts. As with the unregulated traveling Circus/Carnival and CAS shoots, buyer be aware and participate at their own risk.

[Blastmaster]

Could you use a "plow bolt" with a head designed to lay flat an flush to the sheer?

Flat and flush would work. The plate hole would have to be tappered

[Blastmaster]

We get little to NO splatter back from the carriage bolt heads. If anything it deflects the bullet outward rather than back at you. Why go this route, well like has been said, we can swap the brackets to the other side after some cupping starts. We get to use both sides of the steel instead of just the one. Plus like also has been said, why spend a lot of money on AR steel of any grade let alone 400 or 500 and then heat it up welding on it and taking out the tensile strength it had. Might as well use plate steel if you're going to do that. Even a direct center hit on that carriage bolt head doesn't send the bullet back, but outward. All of our targets are set/hung with the bottom of the target about 3-4 inches back of the top of the target, so that gives the bullet a downward path too. We have some targets in AR400 that had the hanger bracket welded on. Those are starting to cup and get some divots. We haven't gotten any divots in the steel with the bolts. Those with the divots we only use now for rifle since they're farther away than the pistol targets. Some have even been delegated to the practice bay.

If you are getting No splatter back and have shot 'those' target designs for a good period of time,at your distance and so forth, then the no incident rate speaks for itself and you are good to go. The incident rate probably increases as you moved them up real 'CLOSE' distances.

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, construction/heavy industrial standards are ZERO incident rate. There is a reason for why OSHA & MSHA Federal Safety organizations were formed and exist today.

 

Finally, SASS has a decent policy of rules for safety as far as gun handling and supervision to make the accident incident at or near zero.

 

Have part of your entry fee go toward safe steel targets? or a chance to win a trinket door prize or hand me out T-shirt or some other thingy? Or the fancy category trophies that only 32 shooters have a chance of getting, and then what do you do with it?

[Blastmaster]

Price....

AR 400 is very usable for out sport. But don't ever try to use a jacketed bullet on it.

So, AR400 is not jacket bullet resistant/proof but AR500 is?

[Zach Taylor,SASS#14359]

Whats the difference where they are, the idea is to have fun. But you have to admit it is a speed game and the fast shooters will slow down on farther targets, and in many cases will not shoot at a match where the targets are not close.You takes your pick and you takes your chances, to each his own.

[Sedalia Dave]

Could you use a "plow bolt" with a head designed to lay flat an flush to the sheer?

Plow bolts are designed to fit into a specially shaped countersunk hole. Usually the hole is pyramid shaped but I seem to remember some that were not. Also IIRQ plowshares are pretty thick and the shape of the mounting hole extends into the mouldboard.

 

I could be wrong as it has been a long time since I worked on a plow.

[J-BAR #18287]

"We get little to NO splatter back from the carriage bolt heads. If anything it deflects the bullet outward rather than back at you."

 

 

The splash we were getting was not from the targets we were shooting on our stage. It was coming from neighboring stages.

 

Not all ranges have the luxury of berms.

 

That said, I'm not surprised carriage bolt heads would splash less than hex nuts.