LARGE, CLOSE TARGETS?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

 

One of the biggest fallacies in Cowboy Action Shooting.

Accuracy is much more important in Big & Close events than it is in Distance matches.

 

Don't believe me? Look at the numbers.

What is the time penalty for HITTING a target? "Zero", you respond, "There is no time penalty for a hit"

But there is - the time penalty for a hit is however long it takes you to aim and make a hit.

On distant targets - that penalty could be 1 second for some and three seconds for others (and they may still miss even after that)

So if I miss on a 1/4 second aimed shot - my penalty is 5 1/4 seconds for that shot.

The deficit to the aimed shot (that hits) is only 4 1/4 seconds and maybe as little 2 1/4 seconds.

And if they miss? I can beat them simply on manipulation speed.

I maybe able to outrun a missed shot here and there.

Especially knowing that "Clean Shoots" are very rare with certain clubs.

 

Aint going to happen with Big & Close.

The penalty for a hit is still aiming time - but with Big & Close, no one is taking 3 seconds to aim (and still missing after that)

The penalty for a miss is still the same, 5 plus aiming time.

But with Big & Close - the difference required to make an aimed shot versus a missed shot is so insignificant that you cannot out run misses.

 

If you are going to win - you may be able to do so in a distant match with a number of misses and a couple of bobbles; your gun speed alone may be enough to save you.

With Big & Close - if you are not fast AND pretty near perfect in hits, transitions and movements - you will not win.

 

Accuracy counts for more when the targets are close.

You're math works out, unless the far target penalty is 10 seconds, like at one club I shoot. That throws all of your calculations off. I assume that is why the penalty is 10 seconds.

 

I think what's really being missed in this whole conversation is the fact that target distances, near or far, aren't the biggest reason people leave or stay at a club. I really think it's more about the people. Of course we all want to win, and if not then at least feel like we did well, but it's the folks that keep folks coming back. At least that's been my observation thus far.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

I'm new to CAS. I've been shooting a calendar year at the local range each month. We don't shoot the winter months so I figured I've shot 8, maybe 9 matches. Shot my first two matches clean (duelist) and my last match clean (gunfighter). The others? Well, gun malfunctions, was sick one match and left early, the dowg eat my homework. But I always come in near the bottom of the list. I calculated I could shoot all shots into the ground as fast as I could and come up with a better score.

 

Years ago I shot handgun silhouette where the chicken target was about 4 square inches and 25 meters out to ram about the size of a watermelon at 100 meters. So I didn't see any challenge in hitting something 100x bigger at 1/3 the distance.

 

Other dimensions are "close together" and "dumping" on one target.

 

I too came from a silhouette back ground. But, I have been doing CAS for a long time. I learned early on that if I depended on my precision skills I would be spending too much time on the sights.

CAS is a speed game. I have never seen a target that was so big or so close it couldn't be missed if you are going fast enough,

I have also seen several small and far type clubs dry up. Some are even gone.

 

Being an MD is much like running a small business. Your objective should be to see that your customers have a good experience so they want to come back. You do that by keeping in mind the majority of the folks that come to this game are there for the fun first and could care less about the high level of competition. Keep in mind that least 80% of the 100 something thousand SASS members have never competed in any kind of gun game before. Many have never even owned a handgun before. As new shooters the big close targets instill confidence and enthusiasm. So, always make it as easy as possible for the newest least skilled shooters.

 

Wild Bill Hickock was suppose to be pretty good but he wasn't the fastest, but he won because he hardly missed. He had a saying about speed & accuracy, what was it?

 

In real life, shoot as fast as your ability allows. Make the other person make the mistake.

 

CAS has become a speed game, which is just fine. Some people have remarkable hand/eye speed. Kinda like trying to run a 40yd sprint against a remarkable fast of foot sprinter that one will never quite be as good as.

 

I don't think it was his quote but there is a saying. "slow is smooth and smooth is fast".

You get that way by developing the muscle memory. This is why some of the top shooters won't shoot small and far clubs. It effects their timing.

[Sedalia Dave]

I think what's really being missed in this whole conversation is the fact that target distances, near or far, aren't the biggest reason people leave or stay at a club. I really think it's more about the people. Of course we all want to win, and if not then at least feel like we did well, but it's the folks that keep folks coming back. At least that's been my observation thus far.

exactly it is the people that I shoot with that keeps me coming back.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Just think, it will not be long till someone comes up with an economically electronic SA pistol/cartridge and electronic target(s).

 

The electronic revolvers could be of any weight/size the shooter desires and would have an audio speaker that emits a pre selected sound of,,,,ping,bang, boom, or click, when the hammer falls on chamber that has a special light emitting beam cartridge.

 

The beam from the revolver would go out the barrel and toward an electronic target (whatever size ya want) that when beam hits it (anywhere cause edgers count too), another sound of ding, splat, zing could be hear for scoring purposes.

 

 

Advantages you ask,,,,

1) no splash back,

2) no lead bullets to load or purchase

3) no worries about sweeping anyone with a real gun that could cause serious injury

4) the targets can be set even closer than they are now. Like,,one foot

5) big savings on ammo and related cleaning supplies

6)environmental friendly (no hazardous lead in ground or smoke to breath)

7) no need to go to ULT

8) can walk around with electronic cartridges in gun cause they can not hurt anything.

9) can shoot a match anywhere (such as a soccer field) because you don't have to worry about endangering surrounding neighbors with real bullets.

10) no need for side berms

11) no need for a loading table, but I guess you still need a table for 6-8 people to shade up until their turn.

12)no brassing

13) no KD target to reset

14) no cease fire for going down range.

15) ol fart safe

16) who would want to steal an electronic beam gun?

17)no LT officer

 

Well you get the idea.

Sounds boring.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Either works for me - I just am happy these when I can shoot. Big and Close IF I had to choose though.

 

IMHO - other clubs need to not fuss about what other clubs do.....

 

GG ~

[Griff]

Only a couple of folks have touched on the other factor involved in whether a stage is considered "fun" or "work". Target separation. Be it vertical and/or horizontal. It adds a degree of difficulty that may prove too challenging... to some, and yet, still not be challenging enough to other!

 

But... target separation is just as important a factor as is target size and distance. In fact, I have the theory that it may be a bigger factor in the ability to shoot a stage fast than either target size or distance individually. Spreading out big and close targets can have a significant effect on the speed at which they can be run... so does putting "small & far" targets closer together. However, when you do that... you run the risk of making a clean miss more difficult.

 

As shooters we all have our preferences... and the challenge to Match Directors, (& their stage writers), is to provide targets, and target arrays that are appropriate to our assumed "old west" theme, provide a safe deflection, AND meet those exceedingly variable shooter preferences. Frankly, in CAS, as well as any other business, it's impossible to make all the people happy all the time. And as shooters, we need to understand that as well.

 

With all due respect... quit demanding it be presented "your way"... learn to appreciate that YOU don't constitute the "average" constituent. The one thing I've learned over the past 29 years, is that the game changes, fluctuates and yet, still presents challenges to all levels of shooters, and still attracts new folks... And, will continue to do so if it is to remain a viable sport.

 

Unlike a few of my older friends, (length of friendship, not age), who haven't yet discovered that they can shoot a stage as slow and precise as they desire, regardless of the fact that it's set up to allow those fast shooters to run "at speed"... and still have fun! It's all in the mental approach! Whereas, back in the day when we only used one handgun... I used to be very competitive... shooting stages in the low to mid-20's... and that was on smaller, farther, more widely spaced targets... usually finishing in the top five at my club... I no longer have the opportunity to practice... or even shoot on a regular basis... and those same skills are rustier and damn near non-existent. Oh, I get the occasional flash of speed... but to do so for an entire stage is beyond my skillset. In fact, I admit... I don't even try.

I've heard plenty of middle of the road shooters say, "Boy, I shot that one clean in 24 seconds".

 

Never heard one say, "Boy, shot that one clean in 50 seconds".

Except my goal is 60 seconds!!!!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

You're math works out, unless the far target penalty is 10 seconds, like at one club I shoot. That throws all of your calculations off. I assume that is why the penalty is 10 seconds.

I think what's really being missed in this whole conversation is the fact that target distances, near or far, aren't the biggest reason people leave or stay at a club. I really think it's more about the people. Of course we all want to win, and if not then at least feel like we did well, but it's the folks that keep folks coming back. At least that's been my observation thus far.

Does the club with a 10 sec miss penalty claim it is a SASS club?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Does the club with a 10 sec miss penalty claim it is a SASS club?

Nope

[Blastmaster]

Sounds boring.

I posted tongue in cheek. But reread, and you will see most of the items are what people are doing or wanting. For instance, few people want to be a brasser or target setter. Most everyone are shooting very mild & low recoil ammo. Everyone wants to hear a bang & clang, Everyone wants to hit and be instantly rewarded, so targets are made easier to hit (closer/bigger). Everyone would like to save money.

 

So, if what I posted sounds boring, then regular CAS would also be boring to you.

 

Just saying.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Guess I'm just slow on the "tongue and cheek" uptake. Electronic CAS sounds VERY boring. I love the bang and clang of real bullets hitting steel.

[Foothills Drifter]

Howdy......

I don't shoot to much these days... However......

I don't care what size or how far.......

You put 'em out there and I will shoot at 'em.

 

Vern / Foothills Drifter...

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I have observed that many slower shooters wait to hear the clang of the bullet hitting target. That will certainly add to their time if the targets are out beyond the suggested distances.

 

Put a BIG target out at 75 yards and watch for yourself.

[Blastmaster]

Guess I'm just slow on the "tongue and cheek" uptake. Electronic CAS sounds VERY boring. I love the bang and clang of real bullets hitting steel.

I see by your pettigree at the bottom of your post that you like FCGF...meaning black power and I presume, a healthy amount of BP. This transalates to health recoil,smoke,flame and the rest..You sir,do not fit the mold I painted and your remark is spot on for your shooting style.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Speaking of fallicies, close to %100 of SASS matches have big and close targets. Many matches are even bigger and closer. Far and distant? Other than some outlaw match somewhere they are all big and close. Too add to the description of matches with rifle targets at over 10 yards we can include "precision match", "sniper match" and "long range sillouete". Along with bullseye according to some posters on this topic. Smoking Gator

[Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630]

I too came from a silhouette back ground. But, I have been doing CAS for a long time. I learned early on that if I depended on my precision skills I would be spending too much time on the sights.

CAS is a speed game. I have never seen a target that was so big or so close it couldn't be missed if you are going fast enough,

I have also seen several small and far type clubs dry up. Some are even gone.

 

Being an MD is much like running a small business. Your objective should be to see that your customers have a good experience so they want to come back. You do that by keeping in mind the majority of the folks that come to this game are there for the fun first and could care less about the high level of competition. Keep in mind that least 80% of the 100 something thousand SASS members have never competed in any kind of gun game before. Many have never even owned a handgun before. As new shooters the big close targets instill confidence and enthusiasm. So, always make it as easy as possible for the newest least skilled shooters.

 

 

I don't think it was his quote but there is a saying. "slow is smooth and smooth is fast".

You get that way by developing the muscle memory. This is why some of the top shooters won't shoot small and far clubs. It effects their timing.

I think the Quote was by Wyatt Earp "shoot slowly but in a hurry" or something close to that.

He is also attributed with saying "speed is fine but accuracy is final"

[Ace_of_Hearts]

As an additional note.

 

The shooter, many times unknowingly, judges a match by how they feel when the match is over. It's not just Big and close or small and far that sticks with them.

Make them push their gun cars through soft sand or rocks that cut your boots to shreds and they won't be very happy.

Make them run ten yards between guns and you sure will weed out the older shooters.

I already mentioned the trick targets or strange moving targets.

Not controlling splatter can be a big negative.

Back to back to back strange shooting sequences in an attempt to "challenge" shooter may result in no shooters to challenge.

Even a long Lunch Break may keep shooters at home.

In short, it isn't JUST the target size and distance. It is the overall experience that determines what a shooter likes or doesn't like.

 

A good example might be..... Try moving Winter Range to the month of August and see what happens to attendance! It would be one Hot winter.

[Bart Solo]

In a way I wish I hadn't started this thread, but several of the posters starting with Phantom have made the key points I couldn't really articulate. Maybe big and close gives a shooter a chance to have fun, gain confidence, and spend time hooting and hollering with the rest on his posse instead of worrying about the "challenge" of far and small. I don't know, the longer I remain in this sport the more I just want to have fun.

[Blastmaster]

I think the Quote was by Wyatt Earp "shoot slowly but in a hurry" or something close to that.

He is also attributed with saying "speed is fine but accuracy is final"

Yes, those were the quotes I was thinking of. So, Wyatt Earp was the person I will look into that further.

 

Thanks

 

Edit: found it.

 

."Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry. "

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

I like targets smaller and further out because to me that's what shooting should be about.

If I can spit on the target, it's too close.

But I am defiantly in the minority.

While all my friends head to Bordertown, I stay home.

I agree with you, KingSnake.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Given the choice of driving one hour for small and far, or two hours for big and close, I'm lookin' at a two hour drive.

 

Annuals and State, they are what they are. The biggest ones get 'em in a little more.

 

CR

[Bucky Buscadero, SASS #73085]

In my area Big and Close is the generally preferred way to set up the targets. With the occasional farther and smaller target to make things "interesting". Still, amazing how easy it is to miss something Big and Close ; )

[Ramblin Gambler]

 

I have observed that many slower shooters wait to hear the clang of the bullet hitting target. That will certainly add to their time if the targets are out beyond the suggested distances.

 

Put a BIG target out at 75 yards and watch for yourself.

I was wondering how come the only options were big and close or small and far. In my short CAS career, my favorite stationary targets were big and far. It was hard to judge scale, but my best guess was that they were about 6 or 8 feet in diameter and about 100 yards out. Those suckers were fun, and yes, I definitely waited to hear the clang, because I always like it when there is a noticeable delay between the clang and the bang. Makes me feel like I'm Quigley, shootin 1000 yard shots.

 

To be honest, there's been a few stages where those big and close targets looked dangerous. I chalked it up to my general inexperience with shooting steel and shot them anyway, but if I'd had an option like 'sharpshooter', I'd have probably taken it.

[Sedalia Dave]

In my area Big and Close is the generally preferred way to set up the targets. With the occasional farther and smaller target to make things "interesting". Still, amazing how easy it is to miss something Big and Close ; )

Too bad they don't keep a tally board of how many shooters have missed the buffalo at the Bar-3.

 

For those that have not had the pleasure of shooting there they have three life size cutouts of buffalo. Haven't measured exactly but they look to be about 4 feet high and 6 feet wide and about 5 yards from the firing line. They are proof that there is no such thing as a target too big to miss

[Blastmaster]

. Haven't measured exactly but they look to be about 4 feet high and 6 feet wide and about 5 yards from the firing line.

 

Oh my goodness!! That is small and far! Complicated shooting scenerio too. How do they dare challenge shooters with such?

 

 

[J-BAR #18287]

I agree big and close is usually preferable, unless there is a lot of splash back.

 

Not long ago I shot in a big match that had target faces with large mounting hex nuts protruding from the bottom edge. We got splashed on every stage. Do you think I'm going to invite my granddaughters to shoot at those targets? What is the excuse for using poorly designed targets at a large match?

 

If the club isn't considerate about the comfort of it's customers, they better put the targets out there pretty far.

[Blastmaster]

I agree big and close is usually preferable, unless there is a lot of splash back.

 

Not long ago I shot in a big match that had target faces with large mounting hex nuts protruding from the bottom edge. We got splashed on every stage. Do you think I'm going to invite my granddaughters to shoot at those targets? What is the excuse for using poorly designed targets at a large match?

 

If the club isn't considerate about the comfort of it's customers, they better put the targets out there pretty far.

Pard,

 

Not making excuses for clubs that have poor targets that causes splash back. It boils down to insufficient funds (money) to purchase good targets made out of good steel, or replacing old targets that are worn out. Moving the targets further away increases safety but then the Big & Close peoples fun factor decreases cause the target are further. Or there just isn't sufficient turnout to generate revenue. Viscous circle forms.

 

You are right, there is a point where one has to vote with their feet and wallet.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Cost of good quality targets is very expensive. We use AR500 3/8" for all our pistol and rifle targets. The pistol targets are 16"x24" and the rifle targets are 16"x16". The pistol targets run around $90 each and the rifle run about $70 each. The specialty targets, buffalo, cowboy, circles, card suits, will cost more, figure $120 each. That's not even including the target stands. To set up a six stage match with good quality targets could easily cost $1,000 or more per stage. The AR500 steel targets will last many many years if you keep the AR15 crowd away from them.

 

Setting up a big and close match with junk yard steel targets is just asking for trouble.

[Blastmaster]

Cost of good quality targets is very expensive. We use AR500 3/8" for all our pistol and rifle targets. The pistol targets are 16"x24" and the rifle targets are 16"x16". The pistol targets run around $90 each and the rifle run about $70 each. The specialty targets, buffalo, cowboy, circles, card suits, will cost more, figure $120 each. That's not even including the target stands. To set up a six stage match with good quality targets could easily cost $1,000 or more per stage. The AR500 steel targets will last many many years if you keep the AR15 crowd away from them.

 

Setting up a big and close match with junk yard steel targets is just asking for trouble.

thanks for sharing the cost of targets and cost to set up a stage.

[Spades Hanlin SASS#66204]

In the end, after all of the yrs this game has been around, the success of the clubs that gravitate towards BIG/CLOSE are the ones that get the crowds, whether it be local monthlies or Larger Annuals.

 

This seems to answer the question of CAS target size/distance all by its on dang self.. The numbers speak LOAD and CLEAR as to how the majority sees this debate...BIG and CLOSE = FAST and FUN = More shooters = Better success for the clubs that employ this style of target set up...

 

SUCCESS of the game is what will keep it alive in the future, thats a very good thing..

 

Maybe some posting here could take the paddle and offer to write some stages their way (Smaller/ Further) to see how it works for them, at the end of the shoot give the shooters a survey card to fill out and drop in a box on the way out after the shoot... Read them and see how it goes for ya...

 

My great grandfather always said if'in ya don't like where the boat is going, grab an oar and start pullin, other wise take seat and enjoy the ride....Oh and never shoot a hole in yer boat!!!

 

 

Spades H.. Loves cowboy ACTION shooting!!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Too bad they don't keep a tally board of how many shooters have missed the buffalo at the Bar-3.

 

For those that have not had the pleasure of shooting there they have three life size cutouts of buffalo. Haven't measured exactly but they look to be about 4 feet high and 6 feet wide and about 5 yards from the firing line. They are proof that there is no such thing as a target too big to miss

Big...yes.

 

But no, they weren't 5 yards. Not that it matters, but they were probably around 10 yards...challenging the shooter not to get sloppy.

 

Phantom

[Sedalia Dave]

Big...yes.

 

But no, they weren't 5 yards. Not that it matters, but they were probably around 10 yards...challenging the shooter not to get sloppy.

 

Phantom

My memory of the distance is not very good as it has been a while since I have been to the Bar-3 for a match. Seems like that weekend something is always preventing me from attending their match.

However I will never will forget the fun I have had there.

[Mattel Sackett]

To me large and close is more fun. It puts more emphasis on smooth gun handling, transitions, clean shotgun loading, etc. If you slip hammer a pistol on a really fast stage it's going to cost you dearly. I think that Cowboys/Cowgirls are voting with their boot prints and attending the L&C matches in bigger numbers.

 

That said we SASS members are a large and diverse group with strong opinions and sometimes hard heads (I wouldn't have it any other way!). So gravitate toward the matches that you enjoy. HOWEVER think about shooting the other style once in a while just to test your other skills and support the other clubs. Don't look down your barrel at the Cowboys that like it the other way.

 

Remember: Before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes. WHY, because you've got a mile head start and they don't have any shoes!

See you at the range,

 

Mattel

[Mattel Sackett]

Meant to post this on the members forum.

Sorry,

Mattel

[Charlie Whiskers]

Cost of good quality targets is very expensive. We use AR500 3/8" for all our pistol and rifle targets. The pistol targets are 16"x24" and the rifle targets are 16"x16". The pistol targets run around $90 each and the rifle run about $70 each. The specialty targets, buffalo, cowboy, circles, card suits, will cost more, figure $120 each. That's not even including the target stands. To set up a six stage match with good quality targets could easily cost $1,000 or more per stage. The AR500 steel targets will last many many years if you keep the AR15 crowd away from them.

 

Setting up a big and close match with junk yard steel targets is just asking for trouble.

 

 

We've replaced ALL of our old targets with AR400 3/8 steel over the last 2 years. The last run of 30 targets some squares and some shapes. We paid $1240 for enough steel to do those but have an advantage of a member than has a waterjet business. He cuts them out for free. The targets shaped ones were averaging 17x18 in size the squares 16x16. We have him cut square holes in the targets and use grade 8 carriage bolts to mount our hanging hardware. Since we started doing that we seldom get splatter back from any of them even at 4 yards.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

To me large and close is more fun. It puts more emphasis on smooth gun handling, transitions, clean shotgun loading, etc. If you slip hammer a pistol on a really fast stage it's going to cost you dearly. I think that Cowboys/Cowgirls are voting with their boot prints and attending the L&C matches in bigger numbers.

 

That said we SASS members are a large and diverse group with strong opinions and sometimes hard heads (I wouldn't have it any other way!). So gravitate toward the matches that you enjoy. HOWEVER think about shooting the other style once in a while just to test your other skills and support the other clubs. Don't look down your barrel at the Cowboys that like it the other way.

 

Remember: Before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes. WHY, because you've got a mile head start and they don't have any shoes!

See you at the range,

 

Mattel

Very well said.