LARGE, CLOSE TARGETS?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Whats the difference where they are, the idea is to have fun. But you have to admit it is a speed game and the fast shooters will slow down on farther targets, and in many cases will not shoot at a match where the targets are not close.You takes your pick and you takes your chances, to each his own.

Fast shooters will win by a larger margin on longer smaller targets and still shoot clean in the process. It is a myth disproven many times that longer smaller targets levels the playing field.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Fast shooters will win by a larger margin on longer smaller targets and still shoot clean in the process. It is a myth disproven many times that longer smaller targets levels the playing field.

Yup - they are the one's who shoot constantly and know their skill set and firearms.

 

GG ~

[Warden Callaway]

Plow bolts are designed to fit into a specially shaped countersunk hole. Usually the hole is pyramid shaped but I seem to remember some that were not. Also IIRQ plowshares are pretty thick and the shape of the mounting hole extends into the mouldboard.

 

I could be wrong as it has been a long time since I worked on a plow.

"Plow sheer" is a generic name for countersunk, flat head bolts. There are a number of configurations for various applications. For sure the hole would have to be tapered and maybe profiled. But it may be a solution to the problem.

[Oklahoma Dee]

But you have to admit it is a speed game and the fast shooters will slow down on farther targets, and in many cases will not shoot at a match where the targets are not close.You takes your pick and you takes your chances, to each his own.

Interesting points and below is just my opinion, as yours is.

 

It is not a speed game, it is a timed event. Speed is used accordingly to the shooters ability to progress through any given stage and its requirements. That maybe a fast speed or a slow speed or inbetween speed. But its timed.

 

The definition of fast shooters and where they shoot, is kinda vague and on the surface, you may have cast too wide of a loop.

 

It's my perception/opinion, that there is a type of shooter, that go where they have the best competition for their catagory, to gauge themselves and to see where they are going and what their competition is doing. They also go to places where they feel welcome, and the range is ran is a safe manner.

 

This may be the "faster shooters" you are referring to. These shooters also, desire to shoot stages, that are similar in style and distance of higher level shoots in this game... such as the SASS State - Regional - National - Divisional - World championships.

 

Seems to me, if a shooter is desiring to shoot at the SASS World Championships at End of Trail,.....well, they would want to shoot stages like the ones they have there. So... you go where you can duplicate or get close to that style of stage.

 

OkD

[Litl Red]

Fast shooters will win by a larger margin on longer smaller targets and still shoot clean in the process. It is a myth disproven many times that longer smaller targets levels the playing field.

 

Good thing that leveling the playing field isn't the only reason for offering some variety. Since day one, everyone shoots the same stage.

 

Adding variety is worth doing just for the variety. Should SASS exclude either SxS or pumps because they don't level the playing field? or because they tilt the playing field? Having a choice of shotguns makes the game more fun doesn't it. Having targets with more than just one dimension (so close they won't run off the lousy shooters whose self image is hurt when they miss) removes a variety that exists wherever people shoot at targets.

[Charlie Whiskers]

"We get little to NO splatter back from the carriage bolt heads. If anything it deflects the bullet outward rather than back at you."

 

 

The splash we were getting was not from the targets we were shooting on our stage. It was coming from neighboring stages.

 

Not all ranges have the luxury of berms.

 

That said, I'm not surprised carriage bolt heads would splash less than hex nuts.

 

Both of the ranges I shoot at here have berms. The berms are about 8 ft. or higher at each. I've been hit more often from shotgun splatter than bullet splatter coming from an adjacent bay than the one I'm shooting on. And that's not just here, but at clubs in my state and other states I've traveled to. No matter what you do getting hit by splatter (bullet or SG) is going to happen at sometime. And from what I've witnessed the target distance is less relevant than the angle of the target to the shooting line and how much it's angled back at the bottom of the target.

[J-BAR #18287]

"And from what I've witnessed the target distance is less relevant than the angle of the target to the shooting line and how much it's angled back at the bottom of the target."

 

I agree.

 

Would you agree that any irregularity on the target face...pits, nuts, bolts, hangers, etc...increase splash regardless of target distance and face angle?

[Charlie Whiskers]

"And from what I've witnessed the target distance is less relevant than the angle of the target to the shooting line and how much it's angled back at the bottom of the target."

 

I agree.

 

Would you agree that any irregularity on the target face...pits, nuts, bolts, hangers, etc...increase splash regardless of target distance and face angle?

 

I can agree if regular hex head bolts were being used. When we 1st had the waterjet guy ( a club member) cut the bolt holes he forgot we were going to be using carriage bolts and just cut round instead of square holes in them. Since we had a monthly coming up before our State shoot we wanted to try them out and since we got the targets back the day before the monthly, we used hex head bolts. BIG mistake. Seems everyone was using those bolt heads as an aiming point (3-4 inches from the top) and getting nailed by splatter. We had probably 8-10 shooters say they got hit by splatter off of those bolt heads. The Monday after the shoot the waterjet guy re-cut the holes for the carriage bolts and we used those for another trial run before the big shoot. No one complained about getting hit by splatter and those too were hit multiple times. The old targets we replaced with the AR400 were pitted and cupped since they were all 3/8 plate steel and had been in use for years. We were always getting nailed from those at just about every shoot.

Having welded hangers is a great way to go if you're not using the AR steel and heating it up. OR if you know someone who knows how to heat the full plate then weld. Just welding on it draws the carbon from the plate to the heated area is what a welder told me; thus weakening the carbon content in the whole plate unless you can heat the whole piece of steel evenly then weld it. The downside also is you only have 1 side to use from then on. This way we can reverse the plates each year if we want or need to to prevent cupping.

[Casper Kid]

I have found that no target is too large nor too close to miss. The only difference is that I can miss them faster.

-Casper Kid

[Charlie Whiskers]

I have found that no target is too large nor too close to miss. The only difference is that I can miss them faster.

-Casper Kid

Ain't that the truth

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

While you may be new to the sport it appears you have a excellent grasp on the game. There has always been a amount of elitism in the game pertainig to target placement. Some of the smaller farther crowd really feel like they have a superior view over the locsl yokals who just want to ring steel. In the end folks always vote with their money and feet. As always if you want to see a change show up and volunteer at your locsl club and then listen to feedback. If you aren't willing to make a difference then you will never know.

Well said

 

KK

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I like the occasional farther out target, but I like it to be BIGGER than the ones that are in close, or at least the same size. I like the extra challenge, but I still want to be able to have a chance.

 

If I was to see a smaller target, I feel that it should be in close for the same reason as stated above.

 

But, while I might like the occasional odd target like that mixed in over the course of a match, I don't think the whole match should be that way. In general, "big and close" is fine with me, but not to close.

[Korupt Karl]

Can't we all just get along....maybe change the subject. Hey, I have an idea, let's talk about the merits of Rank Scoring VS Total score????

 

Sorry,I couldn't resist

 

KK

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Hmmm I take off for a day of reloading and setting targets for Saturdays match........some big & close.............some not so big and not so close......and this thing has made it to page 6 . Heck I've barley got the veggies chopped up for the dead horse stew. See y'all bunch of trogladites on the range

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Boon Doggle]

Some broken harts never mend,

Some steel never bends.

Most cowboys never lie,

And this %&$@ing horse needs to die.

[Blastmaster]

...maybe change the subject.

 

Sorry,I couldn't resist

 

KK

 

Ok, I'll start.

 

The bounce back slug that hit me was so big..._______ (now, you fill in the blank)

[Buckwheat Jack]

I don't see how moving the targets out a little or making them a bit smaler could slow me down any. I have been celebrating the fact that I sldom go over a minute on a stage any more. As I waddle from point to point and try to hit all the targets, I think of it as enjoying the sport a little longer than the fellers who sound like their guns are full auto.

I like an occasional bonus target at longer than usual distance.

[Korupt Karl]

I don't see how moving the targets out a little or making them a bit smaler could slow me down any. I have been celebrating the fact that I sldom go over a minute on a stage any more. As I waddle from point to point and try to hit all the targets, I think of it as enjoying the sport a little longer than the fellers who sound like their guns are full auto.

I like an occasional bonus target at longer than usual distance.

Jack; Looking at your last shoot you had 3 stages in the 50's a couple in the 40's and one in the 30's. Was it more fun shooting a 36 second stage? I know that many of us get different pleasure from shooting. We all love the people and the shooting and I enjoy a fun match as much as the next. I have found that I enjoy the closer bigger targets more than the smaller distant ones. I would challenge you, if you are confronted with bigger closer targets to aim for a specific part of the target and thereby you can meet you needs. Maybe in time, if you start shooting consistently in the 30's you might get the feeling that comes with faster stage times.

 

At any rate, we are all welcome to our opinions and shooting styles. Enjoy the sport and get out of it what you want. See ya down the trail.

 

KK

[Katie Holiday]

But a challenge is what it should be! Sure it is fun to shoot the ginormous targets but I like to have a challenge! I like to know that I can shoot that small target that is far away and hit it smack dab on the middle!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

But a challenge is what it should be! Sure it is fun to shoot the ginormous targets but I like to have a challenge! I like to know that I can shoot that small target that is far away and hit it smack dab on the middle!

So it's not a challenge to shoot your typical stage a couple of seconds faster...and clean?

 

Wow...

 

Phantom

[Anvil Al #59168]

But a challenge is what it should be! Sure it is fun to shoot the ginormous targets but I like to have a challenge! I like to know that I can shoot that small target that is far away and hit it smack dab on the middle!

 

 

Then why not go to a bulls eye match???? Or go shoot a sport where that is what it is about???

[Korupt Karl]

But a challenge is what it should be! Sure it is fun to shoot the ginormous targets but I like to have a challenge! I like to know that I can shoot that small target that is far away and hit it smack dab on the middle!

This is a dead horse topic. There are those that like big and close and those that want it to be a bullseye competition. I know that this thread will not change your mind or mine. If you like small and far you should go to the clubs that embrace it....you will also see from the attendance at these clubs that you are in a minority.

 

I find a mix of target size and distance is good. Too much of anything is boring.

 

KK

[Korupt Karl]

But a challenge is what it should be! Sure it is fun to shoot the ginormous targets but I like to have a challenge! I like to know that I can shoot that small target that is far away and hit it smack dab on the middle!

Katie; Do you shoot a lot of big matches? Personally, I usually shoot 4 or 5 state and 1 or 2 regionals a year which is probably about average for most shooters....none, I mean none do the small far away targets.....time has changed and the sport is changing. It is an entertainment sport. A club either gives the majority of shooters what they want or there numbers will drop. If a state or regional made the targets difficult they would be performing a "death wish".

 

KK

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

If a state or regional made the targets difficult they would be performing a "death wish".

 

KK

And there are a couple of those, either expired or in the death spiral.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Can't we all just get along....maybe change the subject. Hey, I have an idea, let's talk about the merits of Rank Scoring VS Total score????

 

Sorry,I couldn't resist

 

KK

I'd like to talk about when the application for next years IBPG match will be ready

 

GG ~

[Preacher Clint]

My only objection to big and close is that it results in more bounce back lead hitting me. I have dug lead from my hands, arms and face over the years at big and close matches, but rarely encounter it at a small and far match. Truthfully though, I'm just happy to have a local match within 30 minutes of the house now.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

My only objection to big and close is that it results in more bounce back lead hitting me. I have dug lead from my hands, arms and face over the years at big and close matches, but rarely encounter it at a small and far match. Truthfully though, I'm just happy to have a local match within 30 minutes of the house now.

Hi Clint,

 

Splatter is due to the steel's condition (pocked or cupped) and angle, not distance from shooter or bystander...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Preacher Clint]

Change the distance and the point of impact will change on the splatter, bounce back, richochet, etc. Geometry and physics. I agree that shotgun pellets seem to be the worse perpetrators but pistol targets have contributed to my collection of scars as well.

[Gawd Awful]

Love the criticism of those that like bigger/closer targets...that they are somehow less capable of fundamental gun handling...or that 16" at 10 yards is difficult for them.

 

That's just pure ignorance of the talent and mind set of those that like bigger/closer targets.

 

This game brings ZERO dollars into the pockets of it's competitors/members/participants. The ONLY reason folks do "it" is for the entertainment value "it" offers. Bigger/closer offers more entertainment for more people. I think until this concept becomes apparent to those that don't care for the Bigger/Closer targets they will continue to use smoke and mirrors to try and divert the issue to one's ability or some nefarious desire to dumb down the game.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

Well said. I think far to many people forget this is entertainment and needs to be ENTERTAINING

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Hi Clint,

 

Splatter is due to the steel's condition (pocked or cupped) and angle, not distance from shooter or bystander...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Kinda true, but any target where splatter happens is gonna be felt more if the target is closer

 

GG

[Blastmaster]

Kinda true, but any target where splatter happens is gonna be felt more if the target is closer

 

GG

Yep!

 

Who wants to stand 6inches away from a perfectly good steel target with pistol/rifle and touch one off? Yes, super close, but it makes the point about target distance vs splatter/bounce back.

[Gawd Awful]

So for the most part speed ( large & close) is more important than accuracy?

My opinion ????? People laughing and enjoying themselves is more important than proving who is a better bullseye shooter. If the majority of customers start laughing and smiling when we put 12 inch targets at 50 yards then that's what I will do, right now the majority of our customers enjoy big and close.

 

My philosophy is simple, what I want doesn't matter, what the majority of the people who show up and spend their hard earned money, and choose to come support our matches want is what matters. If you want a club, and SASS to succeed and grow, you have to look at what shooters are wanting and give it to them. If you personally like accuracy intense matches, but the clubs holding that style matches are poorly attended, but big close fast matches have big turnouts ...... Well the customers have spoken

 

Clubs with poor turnouts have a hard time growing and introducing new shooters to the great people of sass.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Splatter happens.

We're shooting steel targets.

Splatter happens.

We wear safety glasses.

Splatter happens.

We will NEVER get to the point of zero instance of splatter impacting shooters.

We aren't in the mining industry or commercial construction. We have standard safety practices in place to keep us from being shot.

Splatter happens.

[Gawd Awful]

As an additional note.

 

The shooter, many times unknowingly, judges a match by how they feel when the match is over. It's not just Big and close or small and far that sticks with them.

Make them push their gun cars through soft sand or rocks that cut your boots to shreds and they won't be very happy.

Make them run ten yards between guns and you sure will weed out the older shooters.

I already mentioned the trick targets or strange moving targets.

Not controlling splatter can be a big negative.

Back to back to back strange shooting sequences in an attempt to "challenge" shooter may result in no shooters to challenge.

Even a long Lunch Break may keep shooters at home.

In short, it isn't JUST the target size and distance. It is the overall experience that determines what a shooter likes or doesn't like.

 

A good example might be..... Try moving Winter Range to the month of August and see what happens to attendance! It would be one Hot winter.

All good points Ace. Another thing to think about is a match that limits different styles from being competitive, I heard a well known Classic Cowboy pointed out that pistol dump targets hurt Duelist style shooters because they can't run one hand as fast as a gunfighter or 2 handed shooters, when I was a gunfighter I avoided matches that I knew would have a bunch of split pistol stages, all stand and deliver kills a BP shooter unless there is a breeze.

 

If you have 1 dump target over 6 stages. No biggie. 5 stages...

 

Same with split pistols. I'll live with 1 maybe 2 but if there is split pistol on 5 of the 6 stages I won't be back

 

Six stages of stand and deliver shooting BP????

 

It's hard for match directors to create a balance. It's one of the reasons I never shoot at a club that is only 15 mins from me, but drive 4 hours 1 way to shoot a club I truly enjoy because Creeker works very hard to balance all of the above and still make it different each and every month

[Preacher Clint]

A 4'x 4' target at 20 yards will result in less painful splatter than a 1' x 1' target at 5 yards. I guess I am just wierd but it messes up my fun to dig lead out of my arm with a pocket knife a whole lot more than a miss does. It takes the same skill in my example above to secure a hit. Farther distance means less retained energy of the splatter. Less pain and less chance of drawing blood. FWIW, my last match at the beginning of the month resulted in three shotgun pellet impacts to my face. One hit just below my wrap around shooting glasses, deflecting upward into my eye underneath. Fortunately no eye injury, and I am shopping now for more secure glasses. Some may be cavalier about their eyesight, but I have nearly lost my right eye three times in my 58 years, so anything I can do to minimize my risk, I'm for.