Cypress Sun Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 No as of yet. Based on some on this forum (in post posts, responses others' posts, etc) not sure I want to. I'm not currently an NRA member either. Much of their rhetoric I don't like and won't support. Many people do not support rhetoric and positions they don't agree with 100%......much like this gentleman. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me. Martin Nieolter 1946 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knarley Bob Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't agree with the restriction-But, it's not 'my-house' either--- LG +3.............. I'm sure it's a liability thing..thank the lawyers. If you notice, the loading manuals are getting more conservative also. Some of the hotter loads in older books are't there any more, while metalurgy is getting better. But I ain't gonna say that about some guns....................... Knarley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 +3.............. I'm sure it's a liability thing..thank the lawyers. If you notice, the loading manuals are getting more conservative also. Some of the hotter loads in older books are't there any more, while metalurgy is getting better. But I ain't gonna say that about some guns....................... Knarley +4Noticed that when comparing previous versions of manuals to the latest version, load data that requires fillers has been eliminated as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 10, 2014 - Insult Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 10, 2014 - Insult Anydangbody that owns firearms in the USA, and is NOT a member of the NRA, is a bewilderment to me. LG Ya They are hypocrites They are users of others etc Link to comment
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't support an ORGANIZATION!!!!! I'm not gunna give my money to any organization that I don't agree 100% with...hence...I support nobody! oy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Please start another thread if you want to debate the advantages or disadvantages of being a NRA member or what you think of them. If you wish to insult folks who are SASS members who do not support the NRA, it will be dealt with as are all blatant insults that add nothing else to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I fully support SASS as well as the big rifle group of folks . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 +4 Noticed that when comparing previous versions of manuals to the latest version, load data that requires fillers has been eliminated as well. When equipment came along that accurately measured the pressures of some of these old loads the reloading manuals were updated fast! Some of the loads thought to be 55,000 psi were actually closer to 65,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 That's the ONLY reason that counts. Anydangbody that owns firearms in the USA, and is NOT a member of the NRA, is a bewilderment to me. LG +2 Sorry Allie--posted b4 reading page 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amos Dumas, SASS #8447 L Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 No control over what folks might send you, could wind up with a blown up gun or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 It's not like you can't get that information else were? Geeeese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StirrupTrouble Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 As said before, it is a liability thing. Whether they should be held liable for a mistake load posted by a member or not is something that lawyers will fight over longer than any of us will be alive. From a legal standpoint, it is all about the size of the target. SASS and the Wild Bunch not only own this site, but they also own that beautiful ranch and shooting park. If a bogus load were posted in this forum and another forum owned by some random group or person without deeper pockets and a gun blew up, who would you target? Unfortunately, sometimes you have to think defensively instead of doing what you might like to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Z Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Gee, I guess if congress outlaws guns then we just accept it as 'the law' and don't suggest it be changed? I would think majority opinion might be considered by the forum owners when making rules. I too am in other forums and this is I think the only one that forbids load data. And in this particular sport I bet there is a much higher than average number of folks that reload. As for the liability..not sure there is any. I'm sure in their TOS they claim no responsibility for what is posted here, be it loading data or political opinion or anything else. All they are doing is facilitating the exchange of information - be that a forum post or PM they're still facilitating the communication. I see no less risk in a PM with a typo than an open post with one. If a load is below min, or over, or typed wrong, etc it's still up to the individual to verify or confirm such data. Manufacturers have misprints, load data changes over time (I have books that directly contradict eachother on loads). And even with perfect data one can still make a mistake when doing the reloading and blow up their gun. Just another example of the nanny state trying to protect us from ourselves. Ummm, No. Last I looked, SASS was not a state or any other government agency. What they are is a privately held business, and as such, they can do pretty much what they with with their business and property. Those that disagree can certainly start their own business and set what rules they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Doggle Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 This thread has become so informative and enlightening that I figured it deserved a bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 How does it compute that if SASS leadership is concerned with liability that load data for WB matches is allowed but not for regular SASS events? The only thing that fits is that nearly all those reloading for WB are within listed load data limits while SASS is aware that many cowboy shooters are loading outside the tested data parameters. Smokin Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Well maybe it should be allowed if it is with in spec and delegated if it is not. A ref could be provided back to one of the manufacture sites or a book title, edition and page number. If verified it stays if not it goes. I'm sure that someone can verify it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snidely Whiplash Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 That's the ONLY reason that counts. Anydangbody that owns firearms in the USA, and is NOT a member of the NRA, is a bewilderment to me. LG I was an NRA member for several years through about 1995. I attended an annual NRA convention held in Milwaukee back in the 90's when Neal Knox was stirring things up during the members meeting and saw Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper in the hallways. I think that was back when Wayne La Pierre was in charge of the membership drive. Starting several months before my annual membership expired, I started getting renewal notices. I must have received seven or eight of them and the frequency really annoyed me. I figured they were spending too much of my dues on all the renewal mailings. The straw that broke the camel's back was another renewal notice 1 month after I renewed. I let my membership lapse and after a while, they figured out I wasn't going to renew and stopped sending me mail. I'm told I tend to hold a grudge . I am strongly pro-gun and did my bit as an individual in pushing for concealed carry in my home state of Wisconsin. I've also attended the last two annual IGOLD rallies in Illinois to support my gun-owning friends in FIB-land (payback for all those out-of-state libtards that attended the Wisconsin CCW hearings and whined against concealed carry before we got our permit law). My Dad was a great "letter to the editor" writer and frequently wrote to state and federal politicians. I guess I inherited the urge, but I don't need an NRA form to write a letter. I can think of 3 reasons why I don't rejoin the NRA: 1. Occasionally in public discussions about gun ownership, when a hoplophobe senses that their feeble arguments are failing, they resort to their fall-back ad hominem attack, "You're just another NRA gun crank" (or something less polite). It really deflates them when I reply that I'm not an NRA member. 2. I save money. I've had 19 years of would-be-dues cash to spend on other things. The NRA has still made money off me. When Wisconsin got its concealed carry law, I bought a coat and a leather jacket out of the NRA online catalog: http://www.nrastore.com/nrastore/Products.aspx?c=6 3. I'm further down on the confiscation target list. When "they", commies/islamofascists/little green men/Homeland Security (take your pick) seize control of Washington D.C., do you think they are going to grab the ATF records and wade through all those bureaucratic government papyrus record systems "managed" by an Obama appointee, or will they drive across the Potomac River and grab the most recent electronic copy of the NRA membership list? The NRA is a fine organization that does important work to maintain Americans 2nd Amendment rights, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Snidely Whiplash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Obviously you didn't read post 74... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Maybe I missed it..but what IS the reason for not allowing loading data to be publicly exchanged? Fear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Chance Morgun Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 It's not like you can't get that information else were? Geeese NEXT SHOOTER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Seems a lot of people are missing the point. If other site owners wish to let data be posted that is up to them. This site owner does not. PERIOD !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Seems a lot of people are missing the point. If other site owners wish to let data be posted that is up to them. This site owner does not. PERIOD !!! Yup pretty simple if you ask me Try http://www.loaddata.com/members/search.cfm Many other places as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Tee Kay, Sass # 2494 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 How does it compute that if SASS leadership is concerned with liability that load data for WB matches is allowed but not for regular SASS events? The only thing that fits is that nearly all those reloading for WB are within listed load data limits while SASS is aware that many cowboy shooters are loading outside the tested data parameters. Smokin Gator Smokin Gator, I believe that your above answer is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 How does it compute that if SASS leadership is concerned with liability that load data for WB matches is allowed but not for regular SASS events? The only thing that fits is that nearly all those reloading for WB are within listed load data limits while SASS is aware that many cowboy shooters are loading outside the tested data parameters. Smokin Gator Perhaps the wild bunch power factor helps in that regard Just sayin :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 It certainly would look unsafe to the general shooting fraternity (or sorority, sorry, Ma'am) if a shooting organization like SASS allows listing of loads on their public forum that are well outside the standard loads found in loading manuals, and most of those loading manuals have clear cautions not to go outside of the minimum and maximum loads. And our cowboy loads commonly do. Only recently have some of the loading data publishers started to include "Cowboy" loads in their data, meaning they have tested and verified the safety of those loads. Decent WB loads I can find in a standard loading manual section every time, usually about mid-way up the cast bullet loading data range. Perhaps we cowboys "dun it to our own selves." Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Help me out here. Isn't SASS/CAS rules say the PF must be 60 or higher? Minimum velocity of 400fps? Commonly know that KD's are calibrated with a 22 caliber rim fire. And nobody checks either value. I bet you can't find a load in any published manual that goes that low. Edit: found it: "The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Isn't SASS/CAS rules say the PF must be 60 or higher? Minimum velocity of 400fps? Commonly know that KD's are calibrated with a 22 caliber rim fire. And nobody checks either value. Sure some MD and staff do. Maybe you haven't been checked. Most folks are well above the velocity floor. There are some still that might be close to the PF floor. But I'm sure not following your line of thought. That because our rules allow low speed loads, that it makes it OK to ignore the safety warnings in loading manuals? That (to the general shooting public) violates main SASS rule #1 - Be Safe. Or perhaps "Catch-a-22." A literary term, not a ballistics reference. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Sure some MD and staff do. Maybe you haven't been checked. Most folks are well above the velocity floor. There are some still that might be close to the PF floor. But I'm sure not following your line of thought. That because our rules allow low speed loads, that it makes it OK to ignore the safety warnings in loading manuals? That (to the general shooting public) violates main SASS rule #1 - Be Safe. Or perhaps "Catch-a-22." A literary term, not a ballistics reference. Good luck, GJ My theory was that perhaps that CAS doesn't want loading data publically shared on the Wire because some may be recommending loads well below manufactures recommendation. FWIW, I've never seen anyones cowboy loads checked for PF or velocity,,, but I don't get out much either,, or I am just blind and live in a cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Usually very few fellow shooters are asked to do a PF or velocity check. I've seen a couple. It's usually done pretty discreetly, because when the shooter's loads pass (as we all hope they will), the shooter needs to be able to keep on shooting well, almost as if nothing happened, and without flocks of other shooters bugging him or her with "What was THAT all about?" questions. My theory was that perhaps that SASS doesn't want loading data publicly shared on the (SASS) Wire because some (folks) might recommend loads well below manufacturers recommendation. (corrections added) Believe that was my take-away on the matter, too. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 If the rounds are UN safe IAW published data then why does sass allow them? Isn't sass taking on that liability by allowing unsafe load( on pape at least by being out of published safe zones) at their matches. Or matches where their rules apply ie state and above matches. WBAS matches have a min and max standard and at all state and above matches a scale to weight the bullet and a chrono to test the speed of the bullet to verify the power factor of the load is above the min power factor but below th maximum speed for the hand gun. This is common but some also have checkered the rifle loads also to agin see that the Ammon used is meeting the minimum power factor and less than the maximum speed of the round. Thus stating the competitors ammo meets the requirements. For black powder we do not have a minimum power factor but use a spoke standard. This test which is more subjective that the tests the WBAS rules use is very effective. They say that a shooters ammo must make as much smoke on a given day under similar curcumstances as the certified sample does. If a shooters ammo is called to question the md and ros will first observe the shooters ammo under match conditions if found lacking they will ask for a selection of ammo from the shooter and his firearm. They will fire the test sample then the subspective load or vise versa and compare the two for smoke. Iirc each of the three has a vote and majority rules. If found lacking the shooter will be penalized under the progressive pentaly system. Why not use the WBAS's chrono and weight stsyem for checking power factors in CAS that way the posted load could be calculated on common data to meet the pf or not and then do ammo certification during matches to insure that the ammo used being used meets the requirements. True WBAS have fewer legal calibers for the rifle the following are the only legal caliber iirc 38WCf(38-40), 44WCF(44-40) 44 special, 44 magnum, and 45 LC. And for the handgun there is only one legal caliber 45ACP. For cad you can about double the rifle numbers and that would be close to the same amount for the handguns. Why are two different practices being used one for CAS abd a different one for WBAS. WBAS came along later and it corrected several flaws that where seen needed corrected or reigned in. They did that. They also wanted a different group of shooters for WBAS they have smaller targets, targets are placed further out, and the use larger bore ammo and guns. Not to mention the actual handgun and one of the shotguns are totally. Different from CAS guns but the other half of Kemal guns are used in sass. They saw things and figured out what was done wrong with sass and corrected within WBAS. Like the modification rules in sass are if listed can not be done so the attitude is if it doesn't say I can't then I can. Whereas the same for WBAS state unless it state you can you cant. Both are good ways to do things the later just happens to be better. With the former you take the attitude it better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. But with the WBAS you must have permission first. Maybe when sass goes through the transformation from a business entity to a membership entity they will re look at the shooter handbook and other publishications and redo them to be more inline with the WBAS pub the same with the sass wire lay it out like the WBAS foruns. Standardize them to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 "Gee mom all the other kids moms let THEM do it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Howdy, I nominate this thread as one of the most useless lately. I vote POOf gone. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 This sure does go on a while . . must be a few folks out here who either are bored (that would include me), or just want to teach a pig to sing . . . I was at the market the other day and had to watch one of those spoiled brats which just clung to their mothers leg and whined "Mommie - I want this . . ." while the poor mother just dragged that child along, trying not to hurt him, nor to give in to his continuous whining . . . I was tempted to belt the kid, but that's not a very effective way to teach them either . . . Any way - you all continue on trying these singing lessons out, I'm gonna sit over here on the side and giggle a bit, between sighs of pure exasperation . . . . SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim No Horse Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I am with Wyatt....just couldn't not post cuz it seems so necessary to be involved in this? What is the.....sorry...Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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