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Don’t understand the restriction on loading data


Nickel City Dude

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It seems that about everyone except the owners of the website have chirped in, it might be helpful to hear from the top dogs, and rules can change. Couldnt there just be a major 'disclaimer' posted somewhere in the website that says the owners are not responsible for anything ...

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So I have this dog that likes to bite people. I keep him in the back yard and put big signs all over that say 'beware of the dog'. Some miscreant hops the fence intent on evildoodness. He gets bit. I get sued. At the trial I explain how I put up the signs to prevent just such an occurrence and the sleezy defense lawyer responds "So Mr Dubious you KNEW your dog was vicious and a danger and you STILL...."

 

Ya, disclaimers work so well!

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NCD,

Whether or not YOU agree or disagree is immaterial. The powers that be at SASS determined load data pubically traded, is a liability they could do without. The rule is what it is. Just live with it and enjoy the wire within it's guidelines.

 

Coffinmaker

Gee, I guess if congress outlaws guns then we just accept it as 'the law' and don't suggest it be changed?

I would think majority opinion might be considered by the forum owners when making rules.

 

I too am in other forums and this is I think the only one that forbids load data. And in this particular sport I bet there is a much higher than average number of folks that reload.

 

As for the liability..not sure there is any. I'm sure in their TOS they claim no responsibility for what is posted here, be it loading data or political opinion or anything else. All they are doing is facilitating the exchange of information - be that a forum post or PM they're still facilitating the communication. I see no less risk in a PM with a typo than an open post with one.

 

If a load is below min, or over, or typed wrong, etc it's still up to the individual to verify or confirm such data. Manufacturers have misprints, load data changes over time (I have books that directly contradict eachother on loads). And even with perfect data one can still make a mistake when doing the reloading and blow up their gun.

 

Just another example of the nanny state trying to protect us from ourselves.

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So I have this dog that likes to bite people. I keep him in the back yard and put big signs all over that say 'beware of the dog'. Some miscreant hops the fence intent on evildoodness. He gets bit. I get sued. At the trial I explain how I put up the signs to prevent just such an occurrence and the sleezy defense lawyer responds "So Mr Dubious you KNEW your dog was vicious and a danger and you STILL...."

 

Ya, disclaimers work so well!

There are disclaimers in the loading data websites and books too. Works for them.

 

And even if the data is perfect the user can screw up during the reloading process - so data or not there's no guarantee it won't happen.

 

And data in a PM isn't any more or less accurate than posted in an open forum. BUT in an open forum you might get a correction to an error - that will never happen in a PM.

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Wow, just so our new participants (and old hands) will know, it's considered real rude and really a sign of a novice who does not care, to come on here and start arguing that SASS rules don't make sense, in your first couple of months of participating.

 

The rules are the rules. The "Why" behind the rules is something that can be kicked around some, but not to the point of invoking perceived violations of constitutional rights if you don't like how the rules are set up. You gotta remember, there may be 20 years worth of learning how to run a shooting organization behind most of these rules.

 

We really do welcome new folks to the Wire. They aren't quite as warmly welcomed if they come in with an attitude that every road-apple cart needs to be tipped over in the middle of main street, however.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

(Yeah, I've tipped (or tripped) over a cart or two me-own-self :o )

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It's simple. If you don't like it.

Start your own shooting sport. Get your own web site and do what you want.

 

It's real easy to sit in your chair and tell them what they SHOULD do. Not so easy to pay a lawyer's fee's

when you are sued. Even if you win. You still have to pay the lawyer.

 

 

I get asked all the time for load data for my bullets. Won't do it. No way.

There are company's out there sit up for that. And I am not one of them.

I can not afford to pay a lawyer even when I win.

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So this is akin to ebay’s restriction on guns and gun parts and paypal’s attitude about using there service to pay for guns or gun parts. They have there rules and we have to abide by them weather they make sense or not?

Reloaders can private message such information so it's not all bad

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So what if other sites allow load data to be published. Other sites also allow profanity, rudeness, etc, etc. If you want to use the SASS Wire, abide by the rules.....pretty simple.

 

Why anyone would use load data from someone they don't know is beyond me. If I told you to use 10 grains of Bullseye in a .38, would you really try that? You might, but it would only be once.

 

When I would like load data, I ask someone I trust and have seen what their loads do. I've been standing directly behind someone who blew the top half of the cylinder off and bent the top strap up about 3/4"......wasn't fun and just luck that no one was hurt.

 

Suffice to say, I sure as heck wouldn't use load data from the Wire anymore that I would take legal advice from the Wire.

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It's odd that on the WBAS site they not only allow the posting of loading data but there is actually a forum for posting it and discussing it but here it's a no no to even ask for the data

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Well I was a little short on sleep when I posted that this morning after my nap I realize I cut it short I ment to say ask for the data and receiving it in a post rather than a pm. Thinks Allie

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So I have this dog that likes to bite people. I keep him in the back yard and put big signs all over that say 'beware of the dog'. Some miscreant hops the fence intent on evildoodness. He gets bit. I get sued. At the trial I explain how I put up the signs to prevent just such an occurrence and the sleezy defense lawyer responds "So Mr Dubious you KNEW your dog was vicious and a danger and you STILL...."

 

Ya, disclaimers work so well!

 

Uh, Dan....

 

That would be "the sleazy Plaintiff's lawyer"...the defense lawyer is the GOOD guy, and represents YOU! :D

 

Now, guess which I am.... ;)

 

LL

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+1 on the trust issue.

This weekend - there was a 1/2 box of 38 special ammo found on the range during steel tear down.

Someone handed it to me and said "Here, you shoot 38 special don't ya?"

 

I said "First, it goes into lost and found - not to me. But regardless, the only ammo that goes thru my guns is either stuff I loaded, factory loaded stuff I bought at the store or ammo from a very, very short list of shooters who I would trust."

 

Even if I were asking for advice, regarding a new powder or load (and I have), I am still going to validate that information as much as possible thru reloading books or the powder manufacturers website.

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Cow Chip

 

Are you even a member of SASS ? I see you listed as a Guest.

 

 

Don't think he is. BUT. He has shot a total of 7 matches.

So you know he knows all about SASS. And how to fix it.

 

AND

 

I think he slept at a Holiday Inn last night.

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I do have one observation. There was a time that load data was allowed to be posted and I remember seeing a suggested load for .38-55 that far exceeded published maximum loads. But, several other members caught the mistake and posted, pointing this out, kind of a peer review. Now those same load suggestions go by private message with no chance for others to catch and "red flag" the bad data.

 

I would certainly caution against using any load received by PM unless it can be found in the permissible range in published data.

I agree with the above words from an attorney.....damn, did I just agree with Buffy. If you need load data, check with the mfg of the powder you plan on using and work within their limits.....another is to work with someone in the area that reloads and compare data.

 

Just my too scents

 

KK

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I hadn't reloaded in about 20yrs. But since starting CAS I decided to start again. At first I did get a few suggestions for loading data. But I had also looked up the data on the powder mfg web sites to compare. I always double check any data. Especially data from strangers until I know them better. No one is perfect and it is quite easy to transpose a couple numbers or omit a decimal point. Typos are a normal language on the internet.

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A friend of mine shoots long range rifle - primarily F Class. His 'go to' load is a long loaded .308 using Palma (small primer) brass and a powder load four grains over the max of any published data. While this works for him it would likely blow up most factory stock rifles.

 

I have also seen loads of many forums that run pressures high enough to cause very early wear of a hand gun. Probably not hot enough to blow up the gun but hot enough to turn a gun into a rattling piece of junk in just a few thousand rounds.

 

Everyone needs to use their best judgement about what works for them. While their are lots of examples of poor judgement I still lean towards publishing load data with all of the usual legal disclaimers.

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I have also seen loads of many forums that run pressures high enough to cause very early wear of a hand gun. Probably not hot enough to blow up the gun but hot enough to turn a gun into a rattling piece of junk in just a few thousand rounds.

 

 

I agree with this. It reminds me of when a friend and I both bought 44 mag pistols (different makes). We were shooting hot loads and by the end of the day his pistol was getting loose while mine was still rock solid. So what works for one may not work for another.
Everyone needs to use their best judgement about what works for them.

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I participate in a reloading forum on a daily basis, and have for probably 10 years. I have 60+ years experience with reloading.

 

I can tell you this, restricting data to PM's has far more potential to be erroneous, than does open discussion. Knowledgeable people see the posted data, and throw up the red flag immediately if anything suspect is posted. Hidden in a PM, nobody has the opportunity to see an improper load suggestion, and it many times will get used without further investigation. Maybe it's good, and maybe it's not so good.

 

The Wire belongs to the Wild Bunch, and as such, they have every right to make the rules. However, this one hasn't been vetted with any logic that shows true value. A strong and well written disclaimer would adequately protect the owners of the web site. This is not how they wished to handle it, so we have what we have. It is what it is. I don't like it either, but I live with it.

 

RBK

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Hi Folks,

 

First, I don't have any say, that I know of, in forum guidelines.

 

However, I had two business law classes, taught by a judge, and one thing I distinctly remember is that disclaimers, even signed waivers have very little effect in the outcome of a personal injury trial.

 

For example, one signs a waiver before shooting most matches that is something like the following. "Hereby voluntarily releases, discharges, waives and relinquishes any and all actions or causes of action for personal injury, property damage or wrongful death occurring to the Undersigned arising as a result of engaging in or being present at activities at the...Club."

 

If someone is seriously injured due to a prop failure, ricochet... I believe there could be a lawsuit. Even if it is not successful, it will be costly to the defendant.

 

JMO as a discussion observer.

 

IMO, if you want the Guideline changed, it would be best to get legal advice and write a proposal advocating the change with some statement of that advice and who gave the advice in the proposal.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

 

 

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Hi Folks,

 

First, I don't have any say, that I know of, in forum guidelines.

 

However, I had two business law classes, taught by a judge, and one thing I distinctly remember is that disclaimers, even signed waivers have very little effect in the outcome of a personal injury trial.

 

For example, one signs a waiver before shooting most matches that is something like the following. "Hereby voluntarily releases, discharges, waives and relinquishes any and all actions or causes of action for personal injury, property damage or wrongful death occurring to the Undersigned arising as a result of engaging in or being present at activities at the...Club."

 

If someone is seriously injured due to a prop failure, ricochet... I believe there could be a lawsuit. Even if it is not successful, it will be costly to the defendant.

 

JMO as a discussion observer.

 

IMO, if you want the Guideline changed, it would be best to get legal advice and write a proposal advocating the change with some statement of that advice and who gave the advice in the proposal.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Allie,

You are 100% correct about those personal injury releases, so long as the range has done something wrong or inadequate. They will not protect a range that has inadequate protection for the shooters, or allows stupid acts, or things to occur that have a reasonable possibility of personal injury.

 

The disclaimers will 100% protect the range from stupid and dangerous acts by a shooter. Something they have little or no control over.

 

The law does not allow you to sign away your rights on a disclaimer sheet. If the range allows, or operates, with dangerous conditions to exist, all the disclaimers you can pile up won't protect them.

 

RBK

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Cow Chip

 

Are you even a member of SASS ? I see you listed as a Guest.

No as of yet.

Based on some on this forum (in post posts, responses others' posts, etc) not sure I want to.

 

I'm not currently an NRA member either. Much of their rhetoric I don't like and won't support.

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It's odd that on the WBAS site they not only allow the posting of loading data but there is actually a forum for posting it and discussing it but here it's a no no to even ask for the data

Blackie

There are differences between cas and wb for specific reasons

 

Learn to accept it

I like em both

Just saying

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I have also seen loads of many forums that run pressures high enough to cause very early wear of a hand gun. Probably not hot enough to blow up the gun but hot enough to turn a gun into a rattling piece of junk in just a few thousand rounds.

 

 

I agree with this. It reminds me of when a friend and I both bought 44 mag pistols (different makes). We were shooting hot loads and by the end of the day his pistol was getting loose while mine was still rock solid. So what works for one may not work for another.

Everyone needs to use their best judgement about what works for them.

 

IN forums...and in books.

As you state, it's up to the INDIVIDUAL to decide what is good load data FOR THEM, their gun, their use, etc.

 

The reason I'm in favor of load data posting is we all shoot the same thing here. In other gun forums there may be a large number of hunters or ar users or IDPA or IPSC shooters and what and why they load what they do has no bearing on what we do here.

 

And finding load data on pistol rounds in rifle is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

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Maybe I missed it..but what IS the reason for not allowing loading data to be publicly exchanged?

Oh, now you're just pulling our collective leg....

 

Good luck, GJ

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I don't consider myself to spend much time "out of the books" in terms of loads, I'd never roll someone's internet forum load data unless I checked it against one manual or another first. But I do absolutely appreciate having the ability to share load data with other shooters.

 

This is a prime exemplification of something I've mentioned in another recent post (the "what is SASS doing to market to the 55+ crowd" thread) - SASS has a away of watering itself down in ways that just don't make sense in attempts to keep everybody happy and err to the extreme side of safety. I'm not a fan of drama for the sake of drama, but I'm not a fan of "my little ponies" or "care bears" either.

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Cow Chip,

 

If you are going to base the rule for not allowing load data as the only reason for not being a member then you will miss out on a lot of other help. Not to mention getting more friends along the way.

I know some on here get a bit rough at times but I am willing to bet if I really needed their help some time down the road they would be there for me.

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