"Proper" coaching?

[Shooting Bull]

Didn't know whether this would be a hijack or not so I'm playing it safe and starting a new thread. (Besides, without new threads Ali would get bored. )

 

The example in the other thread was that shooter was supposed to move to a new position and engage shotgun targets. Shooter loaded and closed his shotgun without moving so TO yelled, "MOVE!" Shooter moved and earned himself a DQ. My question is, is this really "proper" coaching?

 

Yes, I understand the shooter has ultimate responsibility for knowing what is and isn't allowed under the rules but, as a TO, I tend to want shooters under my watch to obey my commands immediately. If I as the TO tell a shooter to move with a loaded, closed action I've given him a command which is in direct violation of the rules. That's my mistake, not the shooter's. That to me would be IMproper coacing and grounds for a reshoot.

 

(The rest of the story is that this question has been burning a hole in me for two years because I earned a shooter a SDQ at Winter Range for the exact scenario. Told her to move before I realized her pistol was already cocked. Haunts me to this day. )

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I did a similar thing with a shooter at a State shoot. Shooter was suppose to shoot two out of the shotgun and move and shoot two more at second position.

Shooter shot first two and didn't move. What I didn't see was him dropping a round in his 97 and closing it as I yelled "Move".

 

SDQ - Next shooter. I still feel bad about it, but that bird flushed a long time ago.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Didn't know whether this would be a hijack or not so I'm playing it safe and starting a new thread. (Besides, without new threads Ali would get bored. )

 

The example in the other thread was that shooter was supposed to move to a new position and engage shotgun targets. Shooter loaded and closed his shotgun without moving so TO yelled, "MOVE!" Shooter moved and earned himself a DQ. My question is, is this really "proper" coaching?

 

Yes, I understand the shooter has ultimate responsibility for knowing what is and isn't allowed under the rules but, as a TO, I tend to want shooters under my watch to obey my commands immediately. If I as the TO tell a shooter to move with a loaded, closed action I've given him a command which is in direct violation of the rules. That's my mistake, not the shooter's. That to me would be IMproper coacing and grounds for a reshoot.

 

(The rest of the story is that this question has been burning a hole in me for two years because I earned a shooter a SDQ at Winter Range for the exact scenario. Told her to move before I realized her pistol was already cocked. Haunts me to this day. )

TO's do the best they can do under the circumstances. Key words, "before I realized." You are absolved.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I would say yes it is proper coaching.

 

As most times. The SG closing is happening at the same time as MOVE is coming

out of ones mouth.

 

Shooter has to have sense of what they are doing at all times. and just holler back. I CAN"T. ALL READY COCKED.

Or realize what they did and do the best they can with what they have in front of them.

 

But know what you are saying about something like that bothering you.

There are things that have happened while I was running the timer that still bother me.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

How about instead of yelling MOVE, the TO would yell WRONG POSITION. Then deciding what to do is left to the shooter. And if they ask, then you have time to say "open action, move, then load rounds if and when needed."

 

We do the same with squibs. We tell shooter SQUIB rather than STOP SHOOTING or RESTAGE REVOLVER.

 

Sometimes better to tell shooter the problem than a possible, but incorrect, solution to the problem.

 

Good luck, GJ

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

I usually try to request NO COACHING. That way I can ignore anything I hear except SQUIB, STOP, CEASE FIRE, etc. By the time the TO or Spotters can actually yell, I will have the next gun cocked, usually creating more problems. I regard yelling and distracting a Shooter while he/she has a loaded gun employed is a safety issue. Many shooters are slow enough to provide helpful coaching, but some are too fast for any TO.

 

With that said, all the TO can do is the best he/she can at the time. It is the Shooters responsibility to manage the course of fire safely and correctly regardless of comments yelled at him/her - correct or incorrect.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Yes

However or

Perhaps he should have said

"Move under current SASs rules" really really fast and clear enough for a deaf shooter with ear plugs

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

This illustrates that sometimes the best coaching is no coaching. If Philly doesn't mind my giving an example.

 

We've all seen the shooter shooting a pistol loose track of the round count. How many times have you observed the shooter cock the gun a 6th time and a helpful spotter will yell, "That's all!". The next thing you know the gun is headed to the holster, cocked. When I'm the Posse Leader at a big shoot, I always tell the spotters to try to avoid doing this.

 

Given your example, shooter's speed, and people's reaction time, The TO can be forgiven for trying to help. I don't think it's improper coaching because you gave the shooter "good advice". It'd be different if you tell the shooter to move when they weren't supposed to.

 

Fillmore

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

I would say yes it is proper coaching.

 

As most times. The SG closing is happening at the same time as MOVE is coming

out of ones mouth.

 

Shooter has to have sense of what they are doing at all times. and just holler back. I CAN"T. ALL READY COCKED.

Or realize what they did and do the best they can with what they have in front of them.

 

But know what you are saying about something like that bothering you.

There are things that have happened while I was running the timer that still bother me.

+1 Ultimately the shooter is always responsible for following all SAFETY rules.......Safety Penalties carry over on reshoots so the point is moot as to proper or improper coaching.

 

Stan

[Ramblin Gambler]

I'm easy to coach. If I make a mistake, the TO has time to take a drag off his cigarette before correcting me. I also look back at him before making any move and ask what I'm supposed to do next.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

My situation..

At an annual match... shooting through 10 stages in one day (that ain't fun)

 

Had a stage with split pistols.. (I'm a 2 handed shooter) shoot them from 2 different positions.

Shot first pistol and quickly drew 2nd. pistol without changing positions..

I had it cocked and on target when the RO said MOVE..

I thought.. not a good thing.. I lowered the hammer.. pointed pistol up and moved to next position..

Hammer was down on live round..

Shot from the correct position after having to go around to get the unfired round..

 

After the stage.. RO said I gotta' give you a SDQ.. ya moved with a live round under the hammer..

I said.. "Reckon so" and took my lickin'..

I told him I'd have been better off just getting the P for not changing positions..

 

RO took his call to the match director...

Match director said to give me a reshoot...

 

Rance

Thinkin' I reckon the "correct" call was overturned

sounded right to me at the time.. but reckon it wasn't

[Ace_of_Hearts]

My situation..

At an annual match... shooting through 10 stages in one day (that ain't fun)

 

Had a stage with split pistols.. (I'm a 2 handed shooter) shoot them from 2 different positions.

Shot first pistol and quickly drew 2nd. pistol without changing positions..

I had it cocked and on target when the RO said MOVE..

I thought.. not a good thing.. I lowered the hammer.. pointed pistol up and moved to next position..

Hammer was down on live round..

Shot from the correct position after having to go around to get the unfired round..

 

After the stage.. RO said I gotta' give you a SDQ.. ya moved with a live round under the hammer..

I said.. "Reckon so" and took my lickin'..

I told him I'd have been better off just getting the P for not changing positions..

 

RO took his call to the match director...

Match director said to give me a reshoot...

 

Rance

Thinkin' I reckon the "correct" call was overturned

sounded right to me at the time.. but reckon it wasn't

 

You earned a stage DQ for de-cocking.

Match Director was WRONG.

But the Match Director might not have heard the WHOLE story...... And he sure didn't consult the rule books.

 

NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER lower the hammer on a gun on the firing line. (Unless the TO tells you to do it).

Repeat this 50 times.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

 

You earned a stage DQ for de-cocking.

Match Director was WRONG.

But the Match Director might not have heard the WHOLE story...... And he sure didn't consult the rule books.

 

NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER lower the hammer on a gun on the firing line. (Unless the TO tells you to do it).

Repeat this 50 times.

You really come across poorly...just my opinion...

 

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Match Directors ruling is final. The Match Director can make any ruling he/she believes is appropriate for the circumstances. Even knowing overriding a SASS Rule.

 

As no Rule can cover every possible circumstance. Only the Match Director ( in the situation described in Post #11) can answer to the appropriateness.

 

I would not have given a re-shoot based on the information provided, I would have awarded a SDQ, but I was not there and not privy to the TO and Match Director's conversation.

[Ramblin Gambler]

If you get into the position Rance described, is there anyway to fix it without a penalty? Hammer cocked and you're in the wrong spot. My first thought was to roll the cylinder around so the hammer is down on the empty chamber again, but then Ace said there's a P for decocking.

 

Maybe if the second shooting position is close enough that you can get to it by only moving one foot.

 

Or is this a case where the best you can escape with is a P?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

If you get into the position Rance described, is there anyway to fix it without a penalty? Hammer cocked and you're in the wrong spot. My first thought was to roll the cylinder around so the hammer is down on the empty chamber again, but then Ace said there's a P for decocking.

 

Maybe if the second shooting position is close enough that you can get to it by only moving one foot.

 

Or is this a case where the best you can escape with is a P?

I said it is a SDQ for de-cocking......

Shooters Handbook page 22

De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator (TO). (This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

 

The shooter has already earned a procedural penalty the moment they cocked the pistol as he/she is forced to shoot from that position.

Shooters handbook page 23

If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded “Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and miss). This does not mean a shooter may reload a rifle or revolver at any other time to make up a miss.

 

Just don't the situation worse than it is by de-cocking and then moving.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If you get into the position Rance described, is there anyway to fix it without a penalty? Hammer cocked and you're in the wrong spot. My first thought was to roll the cylinder around so the hammer is down on the empty chamber again, but then Ace said there's a P for decocking.

NO...he said it's a SDQ

 

Maybe if the second shooting position is close enough that you can get to it by only moving one foot.

Or is this a case where the best you can escape with is a P?

 

REF: RO1 pp. 15-16

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

+1 Ultimately the shooter is always responsible for following all SAFETY rules.......Safety Penalties carry over on reshoots so the point is moot as to proper or improper coaching.

 

Stan

Ta Daaaa!! At some point the shooter has to be responsible for knowing the rules when things go wrong, TOs do the best they can. Like Stan said, safety penalties carry over, so a reshoot usually ain't gonna make things better. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Warden Callaway]

Being new to CAS, I received a lot of coaching - especially at my first match. Almost shot by shot but certainly on trasitions. After a few matches and maybe being more proficient, I've not had as much coaching. When I get coaching, it's usually the TO reminding me to open a action, etc.

 

I have noticed some incidents when someone in the peanut gallery or the whole gallery puts up a yell. It's not happened to me but I'd expect it to be most unnerving.

 

I watched one of the EOT videos where a rifle reload was required. I noticed a woman's voice clearly yell out "RELOAD!", just as the last shot was fired. It was if a designed coach, a partner, had been keeping track of shots and yelled out at the exact time to trigger the reload without loss of time.

 

Years ago I did some competition shooting and I can't remember any incident of coaching. I remember one incident when a guy stepped up behind me and slipped me another loaded magazine. He got a penalty for assisting.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Some need coaching

Some don't need coaching

Some can even become dependent or semi dependent on coaching

 

Some shooters do not need coaching Cept for an occasional brain whiff moment

 

Learn your coaches voice, and trust them like a spotter for a nascar driver

However, do not expect a reshoot for good coaching perhaps gone bad etc

 

Shooters still need to take personal responsibility for knowing what is allowed and what ain't

[Anvil Al #59168]

I watched one of the EOT videos where a rifle reload was required. I noticed a woman's voice clearly yell out "RELOAD!", just as the last shot was fired. It was if a designed coach, a partner, had been keeping track of shots and yelled out at the exact time to trigger the reload without loss of time.

 

 

That happens all the time.

 

I normally ask someone to do that as the 9th shot goes off as by the time they holler it

the 10th will be gone also.

 

Normally ask the TO. BUT. There are times I may not trust that to happen and will ask another person

also.

 

Heck I have ask the whole posse to holler it.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Being new to CAS, I received a lot of coaching - especially at my first match. Almost shot by shot but certainly on trasitions. After a few matches and maybe being more proficient, I've not had as much coaching. When I get coaching, it's usually the TO reminding me to open a action, etc.

 

I have noticed some incidents when someone in the peanut gallery or the whole gallery puts up a yell. It's not happened to me but I'd expect it to be most unnerving.

 

I watched one of the EOT videos where a rifle reload was required. I noticed a woman's voice clearly yell out "RELOAD!", just as the last shot was fired. It was if a designed coach, a partner, had been keeping track of shots and yelled out at the exact time to trigger the reload without loss of time.

 

Years ago I did some competition shooting and I can't remember any incident of coaching. I remember one incident when a guy stepped up behind me and slipped me another loaded magazine. He got a penalty for assisting.

That's not coaching...

[Blackey Cole]

IMO this is proper coaching by the to it was up to the shooter to open the gun or make it safe and move to the proper position.

[Lead Ringer]

Ta Daaaa!! At some point the shooter has to be responsible for knowing the rules when things go wrong, TOs do the best they can. Like Stan said, safety penalties carry over, so a reshoot usually ain't gonna make things better. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

Yep:) we can't always stop people. I believe good TO's do way more good by a huge margin than bad!

Regards,

Ringer

[Kow Katcher SASS 53134]

Didn't know whether this would be a hijack or not so I'm playing it safe and starting a new thread. (Besides, without new threads Ali would get bored. )

 

The example in the other thread was that shooter was supposed to move to a new position and engage shotgun targets. Shooter loaded and closed his shotgun without moving so TO yelled, "MOVE!" Shooter moved and earned himself a DQ. My question is, is this really "proper" coaching?

 

Yes, I understand the shooter has ultimate responsibility for knowing what is and isn't allowed under the rules but, as a TO, I tend to want shooters under my watch to obey my commands immediately. If I as the TO tell a shooter to move with a loaded, closed action I've given him a command which is in direct violation of the rules. That's my mistake, not the shooter's. That to me would be IMproper coacing and grounds for a reshoot.

 

(The rest of the story is that this question has been burning a hole in me for two years because I earned a shooter a SDQ at Winter Range for the exact scenario. Told her to move before I realized her pistol was already cocked. Haunts me to this day. )

 

Haunts me til this day also---since I was the shooter!!!! I really don't know what the correct call should have been. I just know what was going on in my mind---first and foremost I am supposed to follow the directions of the TO, but as I decocked my pistol I knew something was "wrong." ---kind of like that feeling you get when you are close to breaking the 170. But I will say this, I hold no ill feelings toward you because you were trying to save me from a 10 second penalty and I really appreciate that. We all just do the best we can as shooters and TO's and we both learned a lesson from this one.

 

Kow Katcher

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Just say the word, Kow Katcher.....

[Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697]

If, as TO I tell someone to do something that is wrong, it is my fault. If I am not sure or don’t say anything, then it’s on them. I do my best to help all shooters when needed. If I tell someone to MOVE! and they do and it’s a penalty I caused it. Re-Shoot without the penalty I caused.

RCD

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Your truly (yep, ME) was at Hell Fire last September.

 

FIRST STAGE of the match, I shoot SG, move and shoot rifle, restaged rifle and draw and COCK both pistols. TO says: "MOVE". (I was suppose to shoot the pistols from another position....oops)

 

I quickly said....."TOOOOOO LATE" and commenced to mow down them steel bandits.

 

The TO apologized to me for not instructing me to "move" alittle quicker but I told him it was ALL on me...PERIOD. All I earned was a 'P' and that there are plenty of 'P's out there for everyone to earn their share.

 

As stated above.....its all on the shooter. And Philly, I can't see where you should bear any blame for trying to safely assist that shooter.

 

Keep a good thought!

 

 

..........Widder

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If, as TO I tell someone to do something that is wrong, it is my fault. If I am not sure or don’t say anything, then it’s on them. I do my best to help all shooters when needed. If I tell someone to MOVE! and they do and it’s a penalty I caused it. Re-Shoot without the penalty I caused.

RCD

 

There's a difference between mistakenly telling a shooter to do the wrong thing & causing a procedural; and "properly coaching" a shooter by telling him/her to MOVE to the correct location for target engagement.

THAT is NOT grounds for a reshoot if the shooter's firearm is NOT in a "safe condition" for movement.

REF: RO1 pp. 15-18

 

The T/O has neither the option nor the authority to remove a SAFETY penalty (MSV, SDQ or MDQ) that has been legitimately earned by the shooter.

 

That would be up to the Match Director.

[Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697]

I agree completely about legitimate penalties earned, but the ones I cause as TO are not legitimate.

RCD

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I agree completely about legitimate penalties earned, but the ones I cause as TO are not legitimate.

RCD

 

The SHOOTER is responsible for knowing whether s/he can MOVE under the "safe conditions" restrictions or not.

Often the T/O is not in position to see whether a firearm is actually cocked...and/or the "MOVE" instruction is given AS the shooter is putting the firearm in a condition UNsafe for that movement.

It is considered a "legitimate" penalty earned by the SHOOTER if the shooter MOVES as instructed with a firearm in an UNSAFE condition.

 

I hope you're not teaching anything other than that in RO classes.

[Kid Drover]

I was running the timer and the shooter got lost shooting the rifle, he asked "Do I have any left?" I said "Yes - 4 rounds". He moved to the next target and shot 4 more rounds on that target, earning a "P". After the shooter left the firing line, a fellow shooter told me the shooter should not get a "P" because I told him wrong the answer. He said the shooter meant did he have any rounds left on the particular target he was shooting. I asked, how I was supposed to know what he meant. He asked "Do I have any left?" I answered the question correctly on the round count. I had no idea he meant on that particualr target. I was counting shots fired. He fired 6, so he had 4 left. IMHO, within the confines of the this subject matter, the TO is there to help the shooter, not be responsible for the shooter. If I am to become responsible for the shooter's action.........Next.....TO!

[Null N. Void]

This happened to me when I first started shooting. I thought it was unfair at the time. The SG shooting positions were lines on the ground and you could shoot all the SG targets from the first position easily. Now that I've run the timer and realize that I can't always see everything, I've come to agree with the "It's a SDG".

 

When I'm running the timer, If the person starts shooting, or loads, or loads and cocks, from the wrong position, I just let it go unless it's a safety issue. When I write stages with a split SG, I make sure that you basically can't shoot the second set of SG targets from the first position. I also have a prop at the shooting position to reinforce that you have to change position.

 

South Buffalo Slim

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

This happened to me when I first started shooting. I thought it was unfair at the time. The SG shooting positions were lines on the ground and you could shoot all the SG targets from the first position easily. Now that I've run the timer and realize that I can't always see everything, I've come to agree with the "It's a SDG".

 

When I'm running the timer, If the person starts shooting, or loads, or loads and cocks, from the wrong position, I just let it go unless it's a safety issue. When I write stages with a split SG, I make sure that you basically can't shoot the second set of SG targets from the first position. I also have a prop at the shooting position to reinforce that you have to change position.

 

South Buffalo Slim

You just let them go????

 

I truly hope that I never get a TO that has that philosophy...that's not good TO'ing...IMHO.

 

Phantom

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

You just let them go????

 

I truly hope that I never get a TO that has that philosophy...that's not good TO'ing...IMHO.

 

Phantom

 

 

 

There's a difference between mistakenly telling a shooter to do the wrong thing & causing a procedural; and "properly coaching" a shooter by telling him/her to MOVE to the correct location for target engagement.

THAT is NOT grounds for a reshoot if the shooter's firearm is NOT in a "safe condition" for movement.

REF: RO1 pp. 15-18

 

The T/O has neither the option nor the authority to remove a SAFETY penalty (MSV, SDQ or MDQ) that has been legitimately earned by the shooter.

 

That would be up to the Match Director.

Unfortunately neither is the often seen practice spoken to here. SASS has an interesting default in this regard by my observation and it seems to cross clubs, boundaries, states, etc. That is, while no one wants to see anyone get awarded a penalty; the very idea that these are negotiable or that there are certain mitigating circumstances in which the rules don't happen to apply in this or that instance happens all the time.

 

My favorite is having watched 2 TG's/ PM's with experience/ both "black badges" stand flat-footed to tell me that if a shooter "intended" to hit the other pistol target but hit another pistol target then it was a MISS not a "P" since a 'miss can't cause a P'. It's frustrating and there aren't many shooters/ spotters, etc. in our game that will stand there and fight to actually cause a penalty award.

 

Argue against an award, yes,...but not cause an award to be rightfully issued; myself included. Maybe there is a correct way to do that, but I don't know what it is.