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Ace_of_Hearts

B-Western - Your thoughts on changes

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Here is my suggested rules with changes:

 

”B” WESTERN CATEGORY

The “B” Western Category has unique clothing, firearms, and shooting requirements.

The RO should be familiar with the following requirements:

 

All costumes are expected to be fancy and flashy. The B–Western costuming must be worn during the entire match and awards ceremony with exception of evening formal occasions.

Revolvers: All SASS–legal revolvers are allowed.

Rifles: Any SASS–legal rifle of 1880 or later design or a replica thereof (i.e.

Burgess, Lightning Rifle, 1892, 1894 Winchester or Marlin).

Shotguns: Any Sass legal Double barrel shotgun. (Never saw a pump or lever action shotgun used in a B-Western film)

Ammunition: All SASS–legal ammunition is allowed

Leather: Buscadero holster rigs or drop holster rigs. (All of the revolvers must be

carried below the top of the gun belt.) All belt and holster rigs must be

embellished (fancy stitching, conchos, spots, or tooling). All holsters must be of

the “double strong side” type. No cross-draw, shoulder rigs, or butt forward

configurations allowed.

Shooting style: Any SASS–legal shooting style may be used at any time, including Gunfighter.

Clothing: Men -Shirts must be of the B–Western style with snap buttons and (without the AND a plain western work shirt would qualify) any of the following: “smiley pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes. Shield shirts are also allowed if they have piping or embroidery. Pants must be full length (Yes! People have actually tried to wear shorts) jeans, ranch pants, or pants with flap over the rear pocket, keystone belt loops, and/or piping or fringe. Pants must be worn with a belt. Suspenders are not allowed on pants or gun belt. (Suspenders takes away from the overall apperance of the B-Western appearance) Felt Cowboy style (Bowler hat and felt caps are definitely not B-Western. Neither is a Mexican Vaquero hat. B-Western is uniquely American) hats only, no straw,or palm leaf hats. Hats must be worn. Boots are required and must be of traditional design with fancy stitching or multi-color fancy design with non-grip enhancing (i.e. “NO Lug”) soles. Lace-up boots and moccasins are not allowed. Western spurs with rowels and spur straps are required for men. Rowels must be at least the size of a quarter. (This was a comment made by Coyote Calhoun when asked how big rowels should be)

Clothing: Women – Shirt, pant, boot, and hat requirements are the same as men except:

Women may wear skirts or split skirts instead of pants.

Women may also wear dresses if the bodice of the dress has : “smiley pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes. Shield bodices are also allowed if they have piping or embroidery. Dresses must have a defined waistline and may have zippers or button closures.(This is a proposed addition to the rules to allow women to wear B-Western style dresses)

 

Both men and women must choose at least one or more of the following optional items: gloves or gauntlets, scarves with slides or tied around the neck or bolo tie, coat, vest, chaps, or cuffs.

Also, costumes that depict leading role characters in B–Western movies are allowed as long as the costume is complete with all accessories, but the costuming must still adhere to the boot, leather, spur, hat, and firearm requirements above. John Wayne, spaghetti western, and town persons (correction to spelling) characters are not acceptable.

 

Failure to comply will result in a penalty for not adhering to category guidelines. The

first offence is a procedure, the second offence in the same match is a stage

disqualification, and the third offence in the same match is a match disqualification.

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What prompts this revamping of the category?

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I think someone thought Slick McClade's spur rowels were too small and the rest is for the fashion police. The SASS grapevine at EOT this year someone complained on a lady's Bwestern shirt that had bling around a fashion logo....WARNING...for improper logo use.

 

Then someone complained about Slick's rowels and his boots, too.

 

Then someone complained about someone's skirt.

 

There's just a lot to the category that blings the eye. My guess is that someone thought they'd win through disqualification. Probably oughta go practice instead....

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think of the song from Disney,,,,

 

 

"Let it go, let it go, let it goooooooooooooooooo'"

 

it taint broke,,,,, dunt ruin it!!

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I think someone thought Slick McClade's spur rowels were too small and the rest is for the fashion police. The SASS grapevine at EOT this year someone complained on a lady's Bwestern shirt that had bling around a fashion logo....WARNING...for improper logo use.

 

Then someone complained about Slick's rowels and his boots, too.

 

Then someone complained about someone's skirt.

 

There's just a lot to the category that blings the eye. My guess is that someone thought they'd win through disqualification. Probably oughta go practice instead....

 

 

And I think most of that stuff had been ruled on already. :blink:

 

Had a World Champ in BW one time try and tell the wife her boots was not legal because they did not

have leather soles or pointy toes.

There idea of traditional meant they had to be that way. :wacko:

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oft times people say things to try to git into yur hed....

 

if you got a complaint, take it to the MD first!!

 

should b a SOG to mess with people like that!

 

and like I've already sed, tha rules taint broke!!

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"John Wayne Characters ain't allowed?? You don't get much more Hollywood B-Western than "Stagecoach" (Bib Shirt, Jeans and Suspenders) :D

and

Gene Barry - "He wore a cane and Derby Hat, his name was Bat, Bat Masterson"... :o

and

in almost every B-Western, the Cavalry came to the rescue... what about full military dress, gauntlets, Saber, Cavalry Spurs (small rowel)...tall boots ;)

 

no, I don't shoot B-Western... I stick to scruffy Frontiersman. :blush:

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Hi Ace,

 

Thank you for asking. I'm not sure you will like all of my thoughts on the subject. However, the following is my suggestion for a re-write (with a little help from a friend who has politely disagreed with some of this).

 

Shirts must be of the B-Western style with snaps or buttons and any of the following: smiley pockets, embroidery, appliqués, fringe, rhinestones, or different colored yokes. Shield shirts are also allowed if they have piping or embroidery. The shirt may be plain if covered with a vest or coat that meets the preceding requirements and is worn during the entire day. Pants must be full length jeans, ranch pants, or pants with flap over the rear pocket, keystone belt loops, and/or piping or fringe. Pants must be worn with a belt. Suspenders are not allowed on pants or gun belt unless hidden from view. Felt cowboy style or decorated felt sombrero hats only, no straw,or palm leaf hats. Hats must be worn. Boots are required and must be of traditional design with fancy stitching or multi-color fancy design with non-grip enhancing (I.e. NO Lug) soles. Lace-up boots and moccasins are not allowed. Western spurs with rowels and spur straps are required for men.
Women’s pant, boot, and hat requirements are the same as men except women may wear dresses, skirts, or split skirts. The bodice on a dress must meet the preceding requirements for shirts. The dresses must have a defined waistline, either belted or fitted, and may have a zipper. Mexican Senorita costumes are acceptable if they are multicolor and/or have fancy trims such as ribbon, embroidery or fringe.
Both men and women must choose at least one or more of the following optional items: gloves or gauntlets, scarves with slides or tied around the neck or bolo tie, coat, vest, chaps, or cuffs.
Regards,
Allie Mo

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Yeah...let's make changes...cuz we have soooooooo many problems with the category right now :wacko:

 

I say that if your character existed in a B-Western...then yer good to go.

 

Good thing I ain't on the rules committee :lol:

 

And I agree...someone's panties are in an un-necessary wad.

 

Phantom

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Please leave the shotguns alone.

 

Not everything ever seen in a B Western is allowed in this category, it was created to honor the cowboys like Roy Rogers and their type of cowboy blingie (?) clothing.

 

Goody: The rules are being discussed because, 1; it was decided to clarify the rules at EOT to allow dresses, and that needs some wording so we know what we can wear. 2: there has been some discussions regarding the "gray" areas of the rule. Just like other rules that have been expanded and or made more clear. Or not. :o

 

Al, did you know the very first B Western rule did, in fact, state leather soles? Thank goodness they changed that quickly. Pointy toes were never, however, a requirement!!!!!! It seems as more people join this category, there are more questions.

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I just got to where I think I understand the category and ya want to go and change it???

 

And I think it was me that got the rowel thing going with a picture on facebook of my 1st pair of spurs, (Least that's what PWB told me 1st time I met him).

 

I get the shirt thing though. Have yet to see a TV Cowboy wear a shirt that looks like any of the Scully shirts I wear.

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Please, (with my inside polite voice) please, let this go. change shotgun? ugh,

 

next are you going to want a certain size rowel, let's throw in jingle bobs too whilst we're at it...

 

there are enuff rules already, do you really really think the TGs would have any interest in playing with the existing rules.....

 

oh oh oh, no 32's, wut reel cowboy evur shot 32s.... oh oh oh, and yu cant shute but duelist or GF, ever see a cowboy shoot holding a single revolver with two hands....

 

take a step back, take a deep breath, and look at the old thread and see how silly it sounded...

 

and just in case you think I'm serious about those "extras" I threw in, I wasn't!!

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How about we do away with a category that has nothing to do with shooting?

B Western is a costume category that will never satisfy the participants because "bling" and "flashy" will always mean different things to different folks. Any attempt to "define" or enforce subjective opinions is destined for failure.

 

The costumes within B Western can be legally worn (without debate, article counters, or pre shoot inspections) in nearly every other category. With all due respect to Coyote Calhoun and without meaning to diminish the fine folks who shoot the category, the idea of a category that encourages costuming above and beyond the norm is admirable, but B Western, as a shooting category has caused more headache than it is worth.

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When a category has rules and restrictions about what type of guns you can use and allows you to shoot using 3 different styles at any time, it's a shooting category. I have to disagree with Creeker on this one.

 

Fillmore

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When a category has rules and restrictions about what type of guns you can use and allows you to shoot using 3 different styles at any time, it's a shooting category. I have to disagree with Creeker on this one.

 

Fillmore

Thank you! When I switch (5 months into shooting CAS) I had to put down a fully raced 73 and find (more like plead for) a Marlin.

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Please leave the shotguns alone.

 

Not everything ever seen in a B Western is allowed in this category, it was created to honor the cowboys like Roy Rogers and their type of cowboy blingie (?) clothing.

 

Goody: The rules are being discussed because, 1; it was decided to clarify the rules at EOT to allow dresses, and that needs some wording so we know what we can wear. 2: there has been some discussions regarding the "gray" areas of the rule. Just like other rules that have been expanded and or made more clear. Or not. :o

 

Al, did you know the very first B Western rule did, in fact, state leather soles? Thank goodness they changed that quickly. Pointy toes were never, however, a requirement!!!!!! It seems as more people join this category, there are more questions.

If they allow dresses then I may switch....Dale Evans was my hero...oh wait... maybe that was Linda Evans? And who has to actually wear the dress? Culpepper?

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If they allow dresses then I may switch....Dale Evans was my hero...oh wait... maybe that was Linda Evans? And who has to actually wear the dress? Culpepper?

If it would put all this silliness to bed, then yes I would.....maybe

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I agree with Cheyenne if it ain't broke no need to mess with it and it is the one category I have no plans to shoot since I had to part with my marlin a few years back. No dog in the fight just a point of view.

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I doubt I will ever shoot B Western, but I do enjoy seeing the B western folks at shoots. Some are easy to tell, others I wonder if they are B western or not. I guess if you have to ask......maybe they aint! Anyways, I don't have a dog in this hunt, other than just enjoying seeing the B western garb.

 

Seems to me a reasonable thing to do would be to put together a commitee of 10 or so DEDICATED B Western shooters, and let them write the costume regs. The term bling or flashy or even traditional style (boots) leaves too much room for interpretation.

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Isn't if funny that we have as much controversy about B Wetern?

 

I guess it is because it is near and dear to so many of us since we saw a lot of it growing up.

 

I think a little clarification may be helpful and I sure like what Allie Mo suggested - well written and includes a little more that is appropriate for the B Western movies and TV, without adding more restrictions that most would not like.

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Many of us interested in B Western have been discussing this for a while. And we do not all agree, however I would hope the Rules committee will take note of our ideas and ask for more input if they need it. I do not agree with Ace's idea to get rid of the '97s, and Allie and I have agreed to disagree on the Senorita clothing. Doesn't mean we can't disagree civilly and remain friends. I just feel all the shirt requirements should be the same for all the costumes. They are lovely costumes, and I would love to see the Senorita costumes, in other categories!!!!!! :wub:

This is not "only" a costume category, it is the ONLY one you can shoot any style you wish at any time. It also has gun, ammo, etc. requirements, just like Classic Cowboy. We have seen this same thing happen with many of the other rules, and they have been clarified or changed as necessary. I would just hope when it is done all will respect the rules and the Match Directors will enforce them.

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It was my hope that people would add to the discussion instead of blind criticism.

Helpful comments that ADD to the discussion is always appreciated even if your dog won't hunt.

I would love to see a committee appointed to clarify the rules of B-Western and allow a clear point of delineation for a match director.

 

I put my comments in purple to indicate my thoughts and the changes I put in red. If it is printed in black, that's the way it already is in the rule book. I did move the Flashy and Fancy to the top as it often gets overlooked at the end of the category rules.

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As a strictly outside observer, I find myself agreeing with Purdy Boy and Phantom. With all of the requirements that are already in place, it seems silly to add some minor change just to try to satisfy a few who still are likely not to be satisfied.

 

Miss Allie, if it MUST be done, yours is simple and fair enough. To mess with the shotgun seems counter productive, and yes in some of those B Westerns with cars in 'em there were in fact pump shotguns used!! I don't recall exactly which ones, so don't expect me to quote scripture and verse. Maybe the name of the category is what is wrong. These were not really B Westerns. They were MATINEE Westerns if you want to get technical!!

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Howdy - it's not Ramrod but Fannie Mostly/Queen of Bling here. Have to say I can't believe a whole new thread has been started about B Western costuming since I last looked at the "dress" language thread a few days ago. Short and simple, I like everything in the language proposed by Allie Mo above except one item. I personally feel very strongly that MEXICAN SENORITA costumes have no place in the B Western category. One appeared at Winter Range, and was clearly unbefitting of the category. There are plenty of other categories to wear them in, and they are not as restricting to movement and comfort as most B Western costumes. Just trying to keep us all on the same level playing field.

 

And for those of you who think this is strictly a "costume" category, most of us shooting the category had to give up our treasured and slicked up '73s in order to comply with the gun requirements of the category. Thank you Fillmore Coffins for reminding folks about the types of guns and shooting styles - they make this a "style" category, not a costume category. In my mind, there are age-based categories and style-based categories, and B Western falls into the latter. Lots of people also had to give up their crossdraw rigs, and learn or re-learn how to deal with two straight hang holsters. If you've never shot B Western on a 100 degree day, you have no idea what it means to shoot in the heat, wearing all the appropriate costuming garb. Those of us who honor the category embrace the discomfort we deal with having to wear felt hats, sometimes uncomfortable stylish boots, etc., in order to comply with the rules and, yes, it really ticks us off when people "cheat" by not following the costuming portion of the rules for this category. If someone in the Duelist category used 2 hands, they would be "cheating" and penalized, right? If a gunfighter showed up with a butt forward holster rig, they would be required to change rigs or suffer the not conforming to category requirements progressive penalty, right? If I (being under the age of 60) tried to sign up for the Ladies Senior category, I would be denied because I didn't meet the category requirements, right? Well, it's no different for the B Western or Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl "style" categories as it applies to the costuming requirements. If you don't meet them, you either shoot a different category or suffer the progressive penalty at that match.

 

Can we just leave the category requirements alone for now, other than adding the "dress" language the ROC wanted, and possibly moving the "flashy and fancy" language to the top of the costuming requirements? THEN, educate match officials and posse leaders about enforcing the rules we DO have. That's where the main problem lies, a lack of willingness to make contestants comply with the current rules.

 

Stepping down off of my soap box throne now...

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Queen of Bling (posting under Ramrod's ID) and Nevada Skye,

 

Thank you for your polite disagreement! That should be what the Wire does best. To those of you who choose to ridicule anyone whose opinion differs from yours :P !

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who should be allowed to express her opinions without fear of personal attacks too" Mo

 

PS If you don't know what I meant by that, I hesitate to hide attacks on me where I will not hesitate to protect others. :angry:

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With all of the "senoritas" in the B Western movies, how would that be inappropriate? Dale Evans wore those clothes often. Of course we can't have indian scouts or soldiers or the like either, so that sort of discrimination would only be normal! :lol::rolleyes::lol:

 

I can't shoot the category because I have to wear lace up shoes and I recently sold the rifles that were acceptable in that category, but I have several good friends who do, and they don't seem to have any objection to the rules as they are now!!

 

I see more participants joining the ranks. Must be something working right. :unsure:;)

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How about we do away with a category that has nothing to do with shooting?

B Western is a costume category that will never satisfy the participants because "bling" and "flashy" will always mean different things to different folks. Any attempt to "define" or enforce subjective opinions is destined for failure.

 

The costumes within B Western can be legally worn (without debate, article counters, or pre shoot inspections) in nearly every other category. With all due respect to Coyote Calhoun and without meaning to diminish the fine folks who shoot the category, the idea of a category that encourages costuming above and beyond the norm is admirable, but B Western, as a shooting category has caused more headache than it is worth.

Hi Creeker,

 

You forgot that BW is the only category where one can shoot GF, Duelist, or "squaw grip." That makes it a unique shooting-style category.

 

I do agree that some things are currently too subjective to enforce. That is why I agree with AoH on replacing the "or" with "and" in the following, "Shirts must be of the B–Western style with snap buttons and any of the following..."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I mean no offense to the folks shooting B Western.

 

But it is a costume Category.

That does not denigrate the work or effort folks put into their equipment, practice or dress.

Or diminish the skill of the shooters in the category.

But the heart and soul of B Western is costuming.

 

There are no "Specific" challenges to shooting B Western that are not found in many other categories.

I don't consider being "forced" to shoot a Marlin, wearing a felt hat & keystone belt loop pants, owning an ugly shirt (kidding), pull on stitched leather boots and drawing from a buscadero rig as a challenge worthy of protection.

 

The "Shoot pistols - any style" argument is a red herring as that language exists solely to try to stave off the "Costume Category" criticism.

HONESTLY - when is the last time you saw someone change shooting styles to fit the stage?

I admit - I have not attended every shoot there is - but I have NEVER seen a serious B Western shooter change styles.

Supported shooters shoot B Western supported

Gunfighters shoot B Western as Gunfighters

 

Make a requirement of B Western that they are required to exercise their options and I will shut up right now.

In a 12 stage match - Mandatory 4 stages supported - 4 stages Duelist and 4 stages Gunfighter?

Now it is a shooting category - with true challenges and obstacles specific to the category.

 

Until then - it is a costuming category using equipment, shooting style, propellant or attire that is regularly found in other shooting categories.

And it is the only category where I have seen shooters make others cry because of their imposition of subjective and ill defined opinions.

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How about we do away with a category that has nothing to do with shooting?

B Western is a costume category that will never satisfy the participants because "bling" and "flashy" will always mean different things to different folks. Any attempt to "define" or enforce subjective opinions is destined for failure.

 

The costumes within B Western can be legally worn (without debate, article counters, or pre shoot inspections) in nearly every other category. With all due respect to Coyote Calhoun and without meaning to diminish the fine folks who shoot the category, the idea of a category that encourages costuming above and beyond the norm is admirable, but B Western, as a shooting category has caused more headache than it is worth.

I don't and haven't seen any controversy or problems coming from any other area of the country or other clubs. Could be wrong but that's how I see it over the last 8 years.

 

If certain folks want to control the category, they can in there own club, and others can choose not to participate.

BV

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I mean no offense to the folks shooting B Western.

 

But it is a costume Category.

That does not denigrate the work or effort folks put into their equipment, practice or dress.

Or diminish the skill of the shooters in the category.

But the heart and soul of B Western is costuming.

 

There are no "Specific" challenges to shooting B Western that are not found in many other categories.

I don't consider being "forced" to shoot a Marlin, wearing a felt hat & keystone belt loop pants, owning an ugly shirt (kidding), pull on stitched leather boots and drawing from a buscadero rig as a challenge worthy of protection.

 

The "Shoot pistols - any style" argument is a red herring as that language exists solely to try to stave off the "Costume Category" criticism.

HONESTLY - when is the last time you saw someone change shooting styles to fit the stage?

I admit - I have not attended every shoot there is - but I have NEVER seen a serious B Western shooter change styles.

Supported shooters shoot B Western supported

Gunfighters shoot B Western as Gunfighters

 

Make a requirement of B Western that they are required to exercise their options and I will shut up right now.

In a 12 stage match - Mandatory 4 stages supported - 4 stages Duelist and 4 stages Gunfighter?

Now it is a shooting category - with true challenges and obstacles specific to the category.

 

Until then - it is a costuming category using equipment, shooting style, propellant or attire that is regularly found in other shooting categories.

And it is the only category where I have seen shooters make others cry because of their imposition of subjective and ill defined opinions.

That is what I would like to see addressed here....

Clear and concise guidelines.

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And it is the only category where I have seen shooters make others cry because of their imposition of subjective and ill defined opinions.

 

I'm another one who doesn't have a dog in this fight but, I'm gonna have to jump in and defend Ace of Hearts. First and foremost, this is exactly what he's trying to prevent in the future. There's far too much subjectivity in the costuming requirements. I don't think he's adding any extra "restrictions", simply clarifying what's already there to help Match Directors avoid conflicts in the future.

 

As far as doing away with the category, that ship has sailed. B Western is here to stay so let's embrace it and make it work just as well as all the other categories. If you want to do away with a category, let's get rid of Gunfighter. Those people are just weird. :P

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Problem is you cannot legislate someone to do more than the minimum requirements who does not want to.

 

For instance, say you do change the 'snap buttons or' wording to 'snap buttons and'...

 

Cowboy takes his existing button up shirt (the one that is giving you heartburn as not being flashy enough) down to the local sewing shop and spends $5 to have a small cactus embroidered just above his pocket.

 

His shirt now has snap buttons AND is embroidered.

 

But then folks will be back here again with wailing and gnashing of teeth because the cowboy or cowgirl is doing only what is required of them.

 

What are we going to do then?

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With all of the "senoritas" in the B Western movies, how would that be inappropriate?

B-Western is uniquely AMERICAN.

It is a movie genre with its heydays in the 1940's. Although many Native Americans and Mexican characters appeared in the B Western movies, the category is modeled after the "stars" of those B-Westerns not the characters. If we were to allow supporting actors dress in the B Western category we would be allowing Gabby Hayes at the top of the list who appeared with Roy Rogers alone in over 60 films. He also worked with Gene Autry and Hoppalong Cassidy as well as appearing as a "bad guy" in many earlier B Westerns.

The Lone Ranger's shirt disqualifies that character under the rules for shirts, yet it allows the replication of the costume if :

Also, costumes that depict leading role characters in B–Western movies are allowed as long as the costume is complete with all accessories, but the costuming must still adhere to the boot, leather, spur, hat, and firearm requirements above.

I would be in favor of adding the word "material" after hat in the above sentence to allow the Cisco Kid into the mix.

 

The category, unfortunately, was not made unique enough in the firearm part to satisfy many. Myself included. Which is why I would like to see 97s and 87s removed from the category. To be honest, many of the B Western have characters driving around in cars and trucks and a Model 12 shotgun is probably more true to the genre that either of the above.

 

The purpose of this thread is to define additional outfits that the Rules Committee has allowed.... Manly "dresses". And the clean up misunderstandings in how men are suppose to dress to shoot in this category. In other words, to get rid of the misunderstandings and make the rules clear(er) on what is expected, instead of a subjective ruling by someone else.

 

As evidenced by the term FLASHY AND FANCY, plain shirts with snaps were not ever suppose to be in the mix. Unless you want to attribute the term to pants or the hat. The category is defined by the beholder by the shirt. It is easily recognizable and separates the wearer from the group. B Western like porn........ You know when you see it.

 

This is an expensive category to shoot in many respects. A shirt is almost $100.00.... and you collect a closet full. (thankfully "jeans" are cheap)

A tooled rig can run $500.00 and WAY up from there.

Wearing a felt hat when it is 110 in the shade is not comfortable sometimes and they have to be worn until the awards are passed out.

Gene, Roy, and Hoppy were regular visitors to my home as a kid. I had the whole outfit then and I am working on it now.

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I'm not beating up on Ace of Hearts (I consider Ace of Hearts a friend {he can't stand me, but that's another story})

But I question whether you can define subjective.

And what seems to be the sticking point is "Fancy and Flashy" by leaps and bounds the most subjective terms in the whole set of rules.

The B Western category already has definitions of acceptable attire - but these rules allow what some feel aren't in compliance with their opinion of the categories intent.

Short of having a governing board and requiring every B Western shooter to submit their costume to the board for review and approval - you will always have folks with differing opinions of subjective issues.

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Interesting arguments...for such a grey area. The definition of B-Western cannot even be agreed upon.

 

From an outsiders POV, if ya look like you belong in one of them old western (Hollywood interpretation of), movies...then yer good to go in my untrained eye.

 

Trying to make this category into a mini version of NCOWS is, or seems to be, anti-SASS.

 

And to drag into the discussion the usage of the 1897 makes all this seem as one's personal crusade rather then what's actually best for the category.

 

YMMV...

 

Phantom

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