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Ace_of_Hearts

B-Western - Your thoughts on changes

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That's it...I've heard(in this case read) enough...I'm taking my Wings and going to Silver Senior.....Faygo(that's getting oooo)Kid :o:P:D:D

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The only thing about B Western that was discussed at the EOT TG meeting was whether ladies should be allowed to wear dresses. After one lady explained the difference between a dress and a skirt to the uninformed males, the consensus was a firm -- who cares!!! (As long as the dresses have the required BLING.)

That is the smartest thing I have read tonight

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Seems like B Western shooters have enough difficulty dealing with the wording as it is now, and self policing their attire, changing it will just make it more difficult. Seems like a solution for a problem that does not exit.

This and the previous B Western thread are driven by only a couple of folks. The rest are appropriately chiming in with mostly humorous comments or an attempt to help where they think they can. Seems that the rest of the B Western shooters have long since figured it out and don't need nor want the controversy. Just sayin

BV

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Amen Blazen Vaquero!

 

I am amazed at how many non B-Western SASS shooters have jumped in on this topic and know so little about the rules for this shooting category.

 

I enjoy the category and I love my competitors. We like this category for the simple reason that it honors those who brought us many hours of fun in movie houses back in the 40s... like Dale Evans and Roy Rogers. If you wish to challenge anything I wear as a B-Western shooter...I owe it to you to show you the exact rules I am following....just like Classic Cowgirls are expected to reply when someone can't see the five required items they have incorporated into their outfit.

 

If I can't prove that I'm following the rules...I will thank you kindly for keeping me honest. I will correct the problem or change to an age category. No bending the rules allowed, no crying allowed. I either follow the rules or take the penalty stated in the rules.

 

My "panties" aren't in a wad and I don't think that of anyone concerned about others who might be breaking the rules. We're here to have fun and play within the bounds prescribed in order to keep things fair and safe. Also....I don't believe that any of my BW friends would "challenge my outfit to win through disqualification" nor suggest that they "oughta go practice instead." The rules we follow are not meant to be broken...they're meant to be followed and if anyone thinks I'm bending the rules...then I appreciate them speaking up.

 

And by the way folks...not every thing Dale Evans wore in her movies, or as a famed actress off stage is allowed....only the clothes spelled out in the rules. Just because she wore a peasant blouse in some movie or a bathing suit on some beach, doesn't make the blouse or suit B-Western. Want to wear a peasant blouse or a bathing suit...then find another category. Don't change the rules to fit your personal need to wear a sexy blouse or bathing suit. B-Western SASS shooting category rules don't promote "sexy"....unless you find the fringe around my hems sexy. :-) 'Nuff said...let it be. The rules are fine just the way they are.

 

"Happy Trails" to you all,

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I am amazed at how many non B-Western SASS shooters have jumped in on this topic and know so little about the rules for this shooting category.

 

I love the category and I love my competitors. We love this category for the simple reason that it honors those who brought us many hours of fun in movie houses back in the 40s... like Dale Evans and Roy Rogers. If you wish to challenge anything I wear as a B-Western shooter...I owe it to you to show you the exact rules I am following....just like Classic Cowgirls are expected to reply when someone can't see the five required items they have incorporated into their outfit.

 

If I can't prove that I'm following the rules...I will thank you kindly for keeping me honest. I will correct the problem or change to an age category. No bending the rules allowed, no crying allowed. I either follow the rules or take the penalty stated in the rules.

 

My "panties" aren't in a wad and I don't think that of anyone concerned about others who might be breaking the rules. We're here to have fun and play within the bounds prescribed in order to keep things fair and safe. Also....I don't believe that any of my BW friendss would "challenge my outfit to win through disqualification" nor suggest that they "oughta go practice instead." The rules we follow are not meant to be broken...they're meant to be followed and if anyone thinks I'm bending the rules...then I appreciate them speaking up.

 

And by the way folks...not every thing Dale Evans wore in her movies, or as a famed actress off stage is allowed....only the clothes spelled out in the rules. Just because she wore a peasant blouse in some movie or a bathing suit on some beach, doesn't make the blouse or suit B-Western. Want to wear a peasant blouse or a bathing suit...then find another category. Don't change the rules to fit your personal need to wear a sexy blouse or bathing suit. B-Western SASS shooting category rules don't promote "sexy"....unless you find the fringe around my hems sexy. :-) 'Nuff said...let it be. The rules are fine just the way they are.

 

"Happy Trails" to you all,

Thank you Lil and to the others that have posted thoughtful input into this thread.

It is always appreciated when adults have a conversation about a subject without injecting venom.

I would still like to hear from others that have constructive input, especially shooters that participate within the category.

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Ace may be right, do away with the 97 and require a certain number of pieces of bling on the side by sides

 

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I like it Grizz,,,,

 

maybe we oughta take a vote for this to continue or not, but then the TGs haven't asked for help and PW only asked for help tongue in cheek about the dress issue,,,

 

I've shot BW ever since it became a cat. I say leave it alone, as politely as possible...

 

and none of my comments here or in the other thread were aimed at no one except the instigators of all this hub bub...

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I know there are some people who rightfully get upset when someone else suggests that they are bending or breaking the rules or outright cheating when they are in fact meeting the minimum requirements.

 

So, if you move the requirement, and folks continue to only meet the minimum, then what?

 

Does it become a stock gun and spec-clothing class where everyone is shooting and wearing the same thing so everyone meets the new, new standard? Think of it as the NASCAR of SASS.

 

Without the logos, of course.

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I have always been interested in shooting B western. I don't feel it is just a costume category. After all, you have a specific time range on your rifle... for me using the marlin 1894. Also, the drop holsters are needed. A different style than used in other categories. Frankly, the leather requirement is what has kept me from trying it.

But, I do see it as more than a costuming category and I respect those that go to the extra work and expense to shoot it.

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Let re-name it to Western TV stars and let people have fun.

 

KK

 

+1

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Hi Folks,

 

You may have noticed that I included Senorita and men's Mexican costumes in my suggestion. Some of my friends have stated that they do not approve of the Senorita look. So, I'd like them (and anyone else reading this) to know why I listed them.

 

First, we have two local male shooters who shoot BW as what we call B-Mexican. I never thought it might not be appropriate until these threads. Their costumes are very flashy and fancy. If they are okay, it seems we should consider Senorita costumes.

 

Second, it seems that at least one lady was allowed to shoot BW in such a costume at WR and EOT (I've already seen her photo at EOT and checked scores). If, the PTB are allowing it at those matches, it should be in the rules. If it is not to be allowed, that should be stated. If any of you ladies or gentlemen object to such costuming, you should write SASS with your objections as they are already being allowed.

 

I hope you find this helpful.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Thank you Lil and to the others that have posted thoughtful input into this thread.

It is always appreciated when adults have a conversation about a subject without injecting venom.

I would still like to hear from others that have constructive input, especially shooters that participate within the category.

I'm supposed to know all the ins and outs of this category if I'm running a posse...and y'all want to make it so damn complicated that it makes that job impossible.

 

If you're going to go to the trouble of trying to make B-Western "Better", then make the requirements less wordy.

 

And stop with the injecting venom stuff...you live in a glass house...you shouldn't throw stones.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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Allie...this problem has arisen from the lax attitude of SASS Costume Contest Coordinators and Judges for B Western attire. They have different rules for B Western Costume Contests rather than sticking with SASS B Western Shooting Category Rules. It has caused confusion for SASS folks. Amigo outfits, Senorita outfits, saloon girl outfits, costumes with straw hats....they all get prizes in B Western costume contests...but you can't have those outfits on the shooting line registered as B Western as they don't meet the B Western shooting category rules.

 

I wish we could just stick to the Roy Rogers and Dale Evans look ANYTIME we refer to B Western....be it on the shooting line or in a costume contest at SASS events. If you want to be lax with the rules for Costume Contests...avoid the confusion by NOT calling it B Western. Call it Silver Screen Costume Contest or Western Movie Star Costume Contest....whatever...just not B Western if you want to be more lax in the rules.

 

When I dress as a Senorita...and I do sometimes....I select a SASS Age Shooting Category. B Western has always been and should continue to be....a category honoring the singing cowboys and cowgirls of the 40s....who wore rhinestoned cowboy and cowgirl shirts...not the Three Amigos and their senoritas. We have guys that dress as banditos with glitz at our local matches and they don't sign up for the B Western category.

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By the way....if a Senorita is able to show that she meets the rules for B Western, then so be it. I'll accept it....even though I don't think it meets the intent of the category. :-( It's pushing the envelope just like others do with boots and belts and hats, in my opinion.

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I'm supposed to know all the ins and outs of this category if I'm running a posse...and y'all want to make it so damn complicated that it makes that job impossible.

 

If you're going to go to the trouble of trying to make B-Western "Better", then make the requirements less wordy.

 

And stop with the injecting venom stuff...you live in a glass house...you shouldn't throw stones.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

Exactly! Even if you or I don't shoot a particular category anyone who runs a posse or timer for that matter is supposed to somehow know at a glance if a shooter is in compliance with footwear rules; leather rules; category rules; equipment rules; safety rules and stage rules .

 

For me- calling the category together before the match starts and daily thereafter to "police themselves" seems the least offensive way to invite a protest if there is going to be one.

 

But now I'm supposed to know a shirt from a bodice and a 'fancy stitching' or measure quarter-sized rowels? Will PM's have to actually carry quarters?

 

Gimme a break....

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Brother King....we expect our PMs to know the rules and we know it's hard. That's why so few are willing to come forward and take the jobs. I appreciate a PM who says, "I need help with costume categories. Can someone give me a hand at making sure all those in BW and Classic are dressed appropriately?" People who know those rules always jump up and offer the help.


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Exactly! Even if you or I don't shoot a particular category anyone who runs a posse or timet for that matter is supposed to somehow know at a glance if a shooter is in compliance with footwear rules; leather rules; category rules; equipment rules; safety rules and stage rules .

 

For me- calling the category together before the match starts and daily thereafter to "police themselves" seems the least offensive way to invite a protest if there is going to be one.

 

But now I'm supposed to know a shirt from a bodice and a 'fancy stitching' or measure quarter-sized rowels? Will PM's have to actually carry quarters?

 

Gimme a break....

I like the idea of the shooters in B western and CC policing themselves and performing a compliance check each day before they shoot.

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If I recollect, when I was growin' up I saw plenty of Senoras and Senoritas, and Gauchos and Vaqueros in B-Western movies. Rules are only (and should only be minimum) parameters or guidelines for accoutrements of categories. I've seen some pretty "fancy" Mexican outfits! As long as they stay within the confines of the rules what difference does it make if it's an American cowboy/cowgirl or a Mexican cowboy/cowgirl (called a Vaquero or Vaquera by definition). If someone wants to dress like a Vaquero as long as the hat is felt and not straw and the Vaquera wants to wear a split skirt (called gaucho pants) and their shirt or blouse has "frill or lace or piping and it has "snaps" it complies! As long as the Vaquero is wearing long pants with a belt (and not suspenders) and their boots have "fancy" stitching and spurs (with rowels) on them and have "no grip enhancing soles" what difference does it make!!!!!! Stop being hypocritical and PC! The Spanish/Mexican culture was very much an intregal part of our "western heritage". There is also a bit of irony in the fact that "buscadero" rigs are a requirement in B-Western category which was originally a Mexican style of gun belt and holsters! Loosen up folks before someone labels SASS as "racists'!

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Hi Folks,

 

You may have noticed that I included Senorita and men's Mexican costumes in my suggestion. Some of my friends have stated that they do not approve of the Senorita look. So, I'd like them (and anyone else reading this) to know why I listed them.

 

First, we have two local male shooters who shoot BW as what we call B-Mexican. I never thought it might not be appropriate until these threads. Their costumes are very flashy and fancy. If they are okay, it seems we should consider Senorita costumes.

 

Second, it seems that at least one lady was allowed to shoot BW in such a costume at WR and EOT (I've already seen her photo at EOT and checked scores). If, the PTB are allowing it at those matches, it should be in the rules. If it is not to be allowed, that should be stated. If any of you ladies or gentlemen object to such costuming, you should write SASS with your objections as they are already being allowed.

 

I hope you find this helpful.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

I whole heartily agree that the big shoots, annuals and above, especially WR and EOT should abide by clothing requirements. or why have quidelines at all....

 

if someone can meet the exisisting requirements, tha's good enuff for me...

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Come to think of it I think EOT handled the cc and be cats correctly. They, the MDs gathered all the shooters into a group and inspected them after the safety briefing. If they had you in these cats and you didn't show up they tracked you down on the range while you were shooting. I know they tracked me down for cc but I had changed to duelist because not all my required items made it to the hotel with me. If all MDs would inspect all cc and be shooters on the first day they would be no problems if a outfit is legal after they were inspected unless they changed it the following day(s). Then they know what is expected of them. In this instance it is better to ask permission the forgiveness since forgiveness comes with a pentaly.

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Wow !!! Really folks ??

No wonder BW is still classified as a "Dress Up" Catagory with all this kind of discussion !

I have shot BW for several years and thought my self and a couple others like copperhead joe and reverend trinity was finally turning BW around to a shooting category in the eyes of others. It's very simple , if you wanna Win freaking practice !! If ya just wanna look Purdy dress up !! If you wanna win by turning in your fellow BW shooter for some dressing rule then find another Catagory :(

Grow up folks and read the rules like big boys and girls and follow what they say. Geez

Next topic please !!!

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Once again...... This is not a thread about pointing fingers and whining.......

 

It is about adding language to the rules for B Western for women's dresses!!!!!!!!!!!

Making it the same for shirts won't work. Dresses are a different animal to put on.

 

If there are other things you would like to see changed while you are at it, then go ahead.

But try and stay on topic.

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I don't agree with just double barrels for shotguns. All legal sass shotguns should be allowed and not changed

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Actually, they are pretty much the same.

 

How about this....

 

Shirts or bodices must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons or any of the

following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes.

 

Looks simple enough....So easy, even a PM or TO can understand it.

 

d4191322r.jpg6b4d00ae39bb00de47172835819a2846.jpg

rileyred1_MED.jpg

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Guest Maker-Wright

Blue demin, chambray, and plaid (cotton, cotton-blends) seem to be the go-to materials for those I've seen who half-heartedly participate in B-western. Whereas, old photos of Roy and Dale decked-out, as well as many of the photos Branchwater Jack has posted, scream Polyester. Blue jeans (yeah, I know) and chambray or plaid shirts are what's most often worn for working or relaxing in. They're what's associated with being casual, not flashy. That's why when these materials are worn for B-western they don't stand out, even if be-dazzled, embroidered, etc.. Along with the existing rules, if blue denim/chambray and plaid/linear prints were outlawed for B-western, I'll bet it'd stop 90% of the controversy.

 

And, of course, if you want to wear blue jeans/chambray/plaid you could still participate in many other categories.

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If there was anything simple about all this it wouldn't be 3 pages and running...Hmm.... simple???? Are those high-heeled platform boots in compliance with all SASS & SASS BWestern rule requirements?

 

Who would know that at your Annual/ State/ Regional?

 

we expect our PMs to know the rules and we know it's hard. That's why so few are willing to come forward and take the jobs.

 

Just to underscore the obvious perhaps, but like Phantom, I do my best to know the rules, and unless you happen to shoot this category it's as frustrating as Slick's post ( #92) alludes for TO's. The tendency is to just ignore all the costuming rules unless someone happens to protest a shooter's alleged lack of compliance.

 

I think most of us shooters would like all of this to be about the shooting with minimum compliance being acceptable AND ACCEPTED unless someone protests it to the MD or it's just obvious (like in CC you best not show up with a buscadero rig and a palm leaf hat)

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This is Whirlwind Wendy's reply, proud Lady B-Western shooter. From the dictionary - Shirt, having a collar AND a front opening. Blouse, with or without collar, worn inside or outside skirt or pant. Our rules state "shirt" So a dress is a non-issue, as long as it follows the "shirt" requirement. Many of us feel strongly the Mexican blouse does not belong in the B-Western category currently. If the TG's clarify our current rule to add Mexican style costumes, then we follow the rule. I (as discussed on FB) did turn a shooter into the match director (annual match) for a Mexican costume, requesting a category change. Costume was approved. At 2014 WR & EOT Mexican costumes were approved in B-Western.

Sorry to say, we do need a few more words within our B-Western rules to clarify and help match directors make decisions on costuming "situations"

 

Havin fun in LBW, Whirlwind

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Whirlwind,

 

Where exactly does it saw that B-Western shirts must have a front opening and a collar? And by collar, what type do you mean?

 

Neither of these dresses have front openings.

 

Would you consider them to be inappropriate for B-Western?

 

Daleevansnudie-suit.jpg

kacey_dress_front.jpg

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And, just for the 4th of July

 

RileyRNW1_MED.jpg

 

Snaps, fringe, smiley pockets, fancy boots . . . . put some spurs on her and a nice red or white felt hat and maybe a white neck kerchief and as long as the butts of her pistols are below the top of her belt and her long guns were originally made after 1880 she's good to go! I'd shoot with her anytime!!!!!

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Branchwater Jack. What I feel is appropriate has no bearing on what the TG's are trying to decide. I am not a TG. Currently I am trying to follow the costume rules as written.

The green dress I would currently wear, the blue/gray dress I would figure out how to add a front snap/button closure - I would stress about being "tagged" - some will do whatever it takes to pull you off the podium, sadly (its a beautiful dress) Gotta love Roy's shirt, but it has a tie/laced closure - its all about how rules are written.

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Whirlwind,

 

Just so you know, the green dress actually zips up in the back. Those buttons are just sewn on for show. Does this change your opinion of the dress?

 

If Dale's shirt was worn in combination with a skirt instead of stiched together into a dress, can you or anyone else quote rules that would state why her top would not currently follow the rules as writen?

 

Also, can you please be more specific on why Roy's shirt is not currently legal with a tie/lace closure quoting a specific rule?

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Shirts must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons or any of the

following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes.

Shield shirts are also allowed if the shield/bib has piping or embroidery.

Whirlwind,

 

Just so you know, the green dress actually zips up in the back. Those buttons are just sewn on for show. Does this change your opinion of the dress?

 

If Dale's shirt was worn in combination with a skirt instead of stiched together into a dress, can you or anyone else quote rules that would state why her top would not currently follow the rules as writen?

 

Also, can you please be more specific on why Roy's shirt is not currently legal with a tie/lace closure quoting a specific rule?

 

 

Branchwater Jack. What I feel is appropriate has no bearing on what the TG's are trying to decide. I am not a TG. Currently I am trying to follow the costume rules as written.

The green dress I would currently wear, the blue/gray dress I would figure out how to add a front snap/button closure - I would stress about being "tagged" - some will do whatever it takes to pull you off the podium, sadly (its a beautiful dress) Gotta love Roy's shirt, but it has a tie/laced closure - its all about how rules are written.

SERIOUSLY? If it's got that much "BLING" (embroidery, rhinestones, appliques, stitching, etc) that I basically wouldn't wear it to a rock concert unless I was the guitar player then I'm referring any protest to someone with a pay grade above "PM".

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