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Ace_of_Hearts

B-Western - Your thoughts on changes

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I'd be happier if more than two women show up at any match I attend.

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Allie...this problem has arisen from the lax attitude of SASS Costume Contest Coordinators and Judges for B Western attire. They have different rules for B Western Costume Contests rather than sticking with SASS B Western Shooting Category Rules. It has caused confusion for SASS folks. Amigo outfits, Senorita outfits, saloon girl outfits, costumes with straw hats....they all get prizes in B Western costume contests...but you can't have those outfits on the shooting line registered as B Western as they don't meet the B Western shooting category rules.

Yes, I understand the difference between the category and costume contests. I'm talking about shooting costumes only. The Senorita costumes are being allowed in the BW category. Again, to be clear and to stave off hurt feelings, it should be mentioned in the rule as not allowed or allowed. Expectations should be clear.

 

Ditto the feeling by some that shirts with just snaps are sufficient and flashy/fancy is only a recommendation. Others feel they are not flashy and fancy enough. That is what I see folks trying to resolve.

 

The rules as currently written are not being uniformly understood in regards to the Senorita costumes or flashy and fancy. If they were, this would never have come up.

 

Phantom,

 

The following is from the ROII. I think it is a lot to expect of the TO and think it might be a better option for the PM to appoint someone to assist.

 

"Duties of the Chief Range Officer (CRO) / Timer Operator (TO)

 

The Timer Operator is the Chief Range Officer on the stage at the time. The person who holds the timer is responsible for the safe conduct of the stage, and for safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire. A positive attitude, a thorough knowledge of the safety rules and a helpful demeanor is essential for success in this role. When the stage is clear, targets have been reset, spotters are in position, and it is safe to do so, the CRO or Expeditor will call the next shooter to the line. Use of phrases that are positive and cheerful to call the shooter always sets a good tone for the stage, and may relax a nervous shooter. (“Next Cowboy/Cowgirl….come on up!” or something similar) Shooters should not be allowed to walk onto the course of fire for the purposes of engaging the stage without being called by the CRO or the Expeditor. Avoid the temptation to engage the shooter in unrelated banter or discussion. Generally, shooters are concentrating on the stage sequence, and some may not appreciate the distraction.

SHOOTER EVALUATION As each shooter approaches the course of fire, the Chief Range Officer (CRO) or Expediter (XP) Officer shall conduct a visual inspection. This may be best accomplished by asking oneself the following questions as you observe the shooter approaching:

IMPAIRMENTS Does the shooter appear to be physically and mentally capable of safely navigating the requirements of the stage? Will the shooter need any special assistance to safely navigate the requirements of the stage?

FIREARMS Without physical inspection, do all firearms appear to be SASS legal? Are the firearms correct for the category in which the shooter is participating?

LEATHER Does the shooter’s leather (gun belt, holster, pouch, bandoleer, shotgun belt) conform to SASS rules? Remember, it is the ammo on belts that must be at or below the belly button.

CLOTHING Does the shooter’s clothing conform to SASS rules and the rules of the category in which the shooter is participating?

AMMUNITION Does the shooter have all the necessary ammunition on their person or in the correct staged positions to complete the course of fire?

EYE AND EAR PROTECTION Does the shooter have the necessary eye and ear protection? In the event the shooter is found to have illegal equipment or to be unprepared to begin the course of fire, the Chief Range Officer shall direct them to the loading or unloading table where the necessary corrections can be made prior to returning to the firing line.

SHOOTING CATEGORY In which category is the shooter competing? This information should aid in determining the best location for the spotters and Timer Operator to position themselves in order to assist the shooter, as well as what to expect of the shooter and their equipment upon engaging a stage. Prior to shooting the stage, Gunfighters should declare to the Timer Operator their intended option for shooting their revolvers. There is no penalty if the Gunfighter changes his or her option after declaring their intent. See Gunfighter shooting options in this material. Some categories require specific clothing and firearms. The Timer Operator needs to be aware of these restrictions.

 

The Course of Fire Once the Chief Range Officer / Timer Operator has completed the evaluation of the shooter, he or she will prepare to “safely assist” and supervise the shooter through the course of fire..."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Can't we please have a polite discussion! :(

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In one of the posts on the first page, someone stated that this was an "American Cowboy" category and that only "Gene and Roy and Hoppy" were acceptable as model guidelines for the category!!

 

REALLY???

 

You're ignoring the Cisco Kid and Zorro and Sgt. Preston of the RCMP?? Dale Evans wore loose fitting "señorita" blouses in some of her movies with Roy but you say that's not B-Western?? S.A.S.S. is world wide!! These are, or were, true B-Western shows! A very legitimate part of the genre!! These "My way or the highway" ideas are just plain wrong!!! You are free and welcome to do it any way you want to within the rules as they are written so why can't others do the same???

 

I'm really with Slick and Copperhead Joe and Cheyenne Culpepper (all of them more than meet the criteria, by the way) on this one. Two are past and likely future World Champions and Purdy Boy may one day be also. "It ain't broke!!"

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Allie Mo. Good response to all the questions. Very good response!

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Alpine Lill...good write up. I agree with you...Maddog.

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I see B Western as a shooting category with other requirements just as classic cowboy is

 

 

You are filling out a annual match form, for a shooting event, just like all other category shooters for that same event

 

Let them refine the wording, what is so wrong with that?

 

Post script

I am simply flabbergasted that grown men (tg,s etc) did not know the difference between a skirt and a dress

Did they not have a momma, sister or girl cousin, or go to school??????

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I see B Western as a shooting category with other requirements just as classic cowboy is

 

 

You are filling out a annual match form, for a shooting event, just like all other category shooters for that same event

 

Let them refine the wording, what is so wrong with that?

+1. It's a shooting category with specific equipment requirements.

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Guess you will have to rob Porter Wagoner's closet to make some happy. :ph34r:

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Once again...... This is not a thread about pointing fingers and whining.......

 

It is about adding language to the rules for B Western for women's dresses!!!!!!!!!!!

Making it the same for shirts won't work. Dresses are a different animal to put on.

 

If there are other things you would like to see changed while you are at it, then go ahead.

But try and stay on topic.

The TGs handled it at EOT, dresses have to have the same bling as skirts and shirts...

 

that said very politely and quietly!

 

so, with that answered, what really is your goal? not said quiet so politely...

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Quit using the word "bling". It ain't in the costume rules and it confuses folks.

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As Blackwater said. The Cisco Kid was VERY B-western and anything that would disallow that bent would be sad.

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Bling (or bling-bling) is a slang term popularized in hip hop culture, referring to flashy, ostentatious or elaborate jewelry and ornamented accessories that are carried, worn or installed, such as cell phones or tooth caps.

 

Is perhaps the new word to describe what is required in B Weatern

Or then again

MayBe not

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After reading all of this I propose 2 new categories: FCGF and Mexican Senorita.

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Quit using the word "bling". It ain't in the costume rules and it confuses folks.

Puhhhhleeeeeze.... everyone....even TEX knows what "BLING" is.....

 

Bling (or bling-bling) is a slang term popularized in hip hop culture, referring to flashy, ostentatious or elaborate jewelry and ornamented accessories that are carried, worn or installed, such as cell phones or tooth caps.

 

Is perhaps the new word to describe what is required in B Weatern

Or then again

MayBe not

Way to take a stand, MM. Can we quote you?

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The list of NOT ALLOWED would be endless....

You can't wear a coon skin cap in the category.....

 

95% of the people that shoot B Western know exactly what is allowed by the descriptions in the rules. It is just a few that take "minimal" to the limits.

At many larger shoots you cannot tell if some people are shooting B Western by what they are wearing it is so minimal. You really get surprised when you read the published scores that these shooters were even shooting in the same category.

 

I am Soooo over hearing people complain about people meeting the "minimal requirements". And not just in B-western but in all of it. If they meet the requirements, who cares?????

 

I have shot with people who met the minimum for b-western

The minimum for classic

The minimum smoke for BP

The minimum for power factor

Shoot in wranglers (the minimum for costuming)

 

This argument about people being wrong for meeting the requirements but not going above is nothing more than sour grapes from everyone who goes "all in".

 

You want to spend 1000 dollars to be super flashy in B western because that's what you enjoy than good for you. But don't piss on other people for not living up to YOUR standards.

 

And as a side note I have seen people dressed up so flashy the looked like they where trying to be an Elvis impersonator, and was suprised by there catagorey as well. (Duelist)

 

Shot with a guy who was on my posse at an annual who shot the entire match double duelist. I was suprised when he took 2nd place gunfighter

 

 

Being suprised at awards isn't a good reason to say someone isn't living up to YOUR expectations of a catagorey

 

your expectations have nothing to do with weather or not they are following the rules

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Hi. My name is Flying W Ramrod and I shoot B Western.(sometimes)

Leave the gun requirements alone.

Make it all flashy and fancy.

Just checking once at the start of an event is NOT keeping an eye on the category. All day, every posse there is someone looking at the cant of a holster, the caliber of gun, the sight of a revolver. Why is it the people who are in charge of a posse don't (or in most cases, won't) take the initiative and keep an eye on the costume requirements.

As a PM, I have a printed copy of the costume requirements for CC and BW. I have those competitors stand forward each day and check them against the list. If they don't fit, they go fix it or get moved to another category. (side note, I had a RO Instructor tell a posse member they couldn't change categories as it wasn't allowed in the rules. My comment was, show me where it says you can't.)

Keep BW Fancy and Flashy, (thanks Slick for setting the bar) and leave the guns alone.

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You are incorrect, sir. Bling assumes your attire must glitter in the sun. Not true.

 

Puhhhhleeeeeze.... everyone....even TEX knows what "BLING" is.....

 

 

Way to take a stand, MM. Can we quote you?

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Just curious folks, (a real question, even) I do have most of what I need for B-Western. Embroidered, Fancy, and everything else. My question is about boot. My calves are kinda wide, (as is the rest o' me) and tall boots just don't fit. But there are plenty on mid calf boots with appropriate colors and stitching and such. My thought is that pants tucked into mid-calf boots looks awful. If I where appropriate boots, can I wear them without the pants tucked in??

 

thanks.

Duc

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Of course. No requirement there.

 

Just curious folks, (a real question, even) I do have most of what I need for B-Western. Embroidered, Fancy, and everything else. My question is about boot. My calves are kinda wide, (as is the rest o' me) and tall boots just don't fit. But there are plenty on mid calf boots with appropriate colors and stitching and such. My thought is that pants tucked into mid-calf boots looks awful. If I where appropriate boots, can I wear them without the pants tucked in??thanks.Duc

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Puhhhhleeeeeze.... everyone....even TEX knows what "BLING" is.....

 

 

Way to take a stand, MM. Can we quote you?

Puhhhhleeeeeze.... everyone....even TEX knows what "BLING" is.....

 

 

Way to take a stand, MM. Can we quote you?

"Maybe and that is final"

Hey, I am being forced into the new world is not flat order / crowd every day

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Here is my suggested rules with changes:

 

”B” WESTERN CATEGORY

The “B” Western Category has unique clothing, firearms, and shooting requirements.

The RO should be familiar with the following requirements:

 

All costumes are expected to be fancy and flashy. The B–Western costuming must be worn during the entire match and awards ceremony with exception of evening formal occasions.

Revolvers: All SASS–legal revolvers are allowed.

Rifles: Any SASS–legal rifle of 1880 or later design or a replica thereof (i.e.

Burgess, Lightning Rifle, 1892, 1894 Winchester or Marlin).

Shotguns: Any Sass legal Double barrel shotgun. (Never saw a pump or lever action shotgun used in a B-Western film)

Ammunition: All SASS–legal ammunition is allowed

Leather: Buscadero holster rigs or drop holster rigs. (All of the revolvers must be

carried below the top of the gun belt.) All belt and holster rigs must be

embellished (fancy stitching, conchos, spots, or tooling). All holsters must be of

the “double strong side” type. No cross-draw, shoulder rigs, or butt forward

configurations allowed.

Shooting style: Any SASS–legal shooting style may be used at any time, including Gunfighter.

Clothing: Men -Shirts must be of the B–Western style with snap buttons and (without the AND a plain western work shirt would qualify) any of the following: “smiley pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes. Shield shirts are also allowed if they have piping or embroidery. Pants must be full length (Yes! People have actually tried to wear shorts) jeans, ranch pants, or pants with flap over the rear pocket, keystone belt loops, and/or piping or fringe. Pants must be worn with a belt. Suspenders are not allowed on pants or gun belt. (Suspenders takes away from the overall apperance of the B-Western appearance) Felt Cowboy style (Bowler hat and felt caps are definitely not B-Western. Neither is a Mexican Vaquero hat. B-Western is uniquely American) hats only, no straw,or palm leaf hats. Hats must be worn. Boots are required and must be of traditional design with fancy stitching or multi-color fancy design with non-grip enhancing (i.e. “NO Lug”) soles. Lace-up boots and moccasins are not allowed. Western spurs with rowels and spur straps are required for men. Rowels must be at least the size of a quarter. (This was a comment made by Coyote Calhoun when asked how big rowels should be)

Clothing: Women – Shirt, pant, boot, and hat requirements are the same as men except:

Women may wear skirts or split skirts instead of pants.

Women may also wear dresses if the bodice of the dress has : “smiley pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes. Shield bodices are also allowed if they have piping or embroidery. Dresses must have a defined waistline and may have zippers or button closures.(This is a proposed addition to the rules to allow women to wear B-Western style dresses)

 

Both men and women must choose at least one or more of the following optional items: gloves or gauntlets, scarves with slides or tied around the neck or bolo tie, coat, vest, chaps, or cuffs.

Also, costumes that depict leading role characters in B–Western movies are allowed as long as the costume is complete with all accessories, but the costuming must still adhere to the boot, leather, spur, hat, and firearm requirements above. John Wayne, spaghetti western, and town persons (correction to spelling) characters are not acceptable.

 

Failure to comply will result in a penalty for not adhering to category guidelines. The

first offence is a procedure, the second offence in the same match is a stage

disqualification, and the third offence in the same match is a match disqualification.

Ace of Hearts, I have shot in the B-Western category since its inception and I agree with most of what you have written.

 

I do not think that shotguns should be limited to doubles, the 1887, and 1897 both fall into the time line you use for rifles, so should be alright for the shotguns also. Also I do not understand why you feel there is a need to set a rowel size, all rowel sizes can be seen in any B-Western movie.

 

The "and" in the shirt requirement is excellent, I shot a match this past weekend on a posse with a shooter listed as B-Western, he had a snap front plaid shirt, jeans, boots, and felt hat. He did not look like a B-Western shooter at all, the "and" would have fixed that. Most of us that shoot B-Western understand very well what the dress for this category is meant to look like, it is just a very few people who always try to just skate by.

 

Mexican outfits for both men and women should be alright as long as they are flashy and fancy, the Mexican culture contributed a great deal to our to our western heritage and had a big influence on the costumes for the B-Western films.

 

To those that have a problem with a shooters outfit should take their concerns to the match director and have them address the situation.

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Ace of Hearts, I have shot in the B-Western category since its inception and I agree with most of what you have written.

 

I do not think that shotguns should be limited to doubles, the 1887, and 1897 both fall into the time line you use for rifles, so should be alright for the shotguns also. Also I do not understand why you feel there is a need to set a rowel size, all rowel sizes can be seen in any B-Western movie.

 

The "and" in the shirt requirement is excellent, I shot a match this past weekend on a posse with a shooter listed as B-Western, he had a snap front plaid shirt, jeans, boots, and felt hat. He did not look like a B-Western shooter at all, the "and" would have fixed that. Most of us that shoot B-Western understand very well what the dress for this category is meant to look like, it is just a very few people who always try to just skate by.

 

Mexican outfits for both men and women should be alright as long as they are flashy and fancy, the Mexican culture contributed a great deal to our to our western heritage and had a big influence on the costumes for the B-Western films.

 

To those that have a problem with a shooters outfit should take their concerns to the match director and have them address the situation.

Thank you for your input.

Suggestions that are well intentioned and constructive is always appreciated.

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One of our multi time B-Western World Champions often shoots in a snap front shirt that is otherwise only plaid with a yoke turned perpendicular to the pattern. If you think he isn't B-Western you're sadly mistaken! The shirt, I think has some sentimental significance. I might add that he also often wears a set of purple and green chaps and on other days he has a set of copper colored chaps that matching boots, and if I recall, holsters as well.

 

Ace of Hearts, I have shot in the B-Western category since its inception and I agree with most of what you have written.

 

I do not think that shotguns should be limited to doubles, the 1887, and 1897 both fall into the time line you use for rifles, so should be alright for the shotguns also. Also I do not understand why you feel there is a need to set a rowel size, all rowel sizes can be seen in any B-Western movie.

 

The "and" in the shirt requirement is excellent, I shot a match this past weekend on a posse with a shooter listed as B-Western, he had a snap front plaid shirt, jeans, boots, and felt hat. He did not look like a B-Western shooter at all, the "and" would have fixed that. Most of us that shoot B-Western understand very well what the dress for this category is meant to look like, it is just a very few people who always try to just skate by.

 

Mexican outfits for both men and women should be alright as long as they are flashy and fancy, the Mexican culture contributed a great deal to our to our western heritage and had a big influence on the costumes for the B-Western films.

 

To those that have a problem with a shooters outfit should take their concerns to the match director and have them address the situation.

 

This is your opinion and isn't shared by many of the top shooters in this category, as Slick McClade and Cheyenne Culpepper have stated!

 

Much like many of my pards in Frontiersman have said when folks start to monkey with our category. "LEAVE IT ALONE!!" I reckon that's all I'll say since I don't, and likely never will shoot in this category.

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Thank you for your input.

Suggestions that are well intentioned and constructive is always appreciated.

You may want to specify how much fringe or embroidery is necessary to make your requirement.

 

Otherwise, you'll have someone take their plain snap up shirt, have $5 worth of cactus embroidered over the pocket, put an inch of fringe under the pocket and you'll still be complaining that they are just meeting the minimum even though they exceeded the 'and at least one of the following' requirement that you like so well.

 

Just sayin.

 

:rolleyes:

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Just an observation since I don't shoot in a "costume category," but why would someone want to shoot B Western or Classic Cowboy and then try to do the absolute minimum possible to qualify for that category? Seems like the people that enjoy these categories get part of their enjoyment from the costuming.

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Just an observation since I don't shoot in a "costume category," but why would someone want to shoot B Western or Classic Cowboy and then try to do the absolute minimum possible to qualify for that category? Seems like the people that enjoy these categories get part of their enjoyment from the costuming.

Because they're just gettin started, and the guns are expensive enough that there's not a lot left over to buy a complete outfit.

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Because they're just gettin started, and the guns are expensive enough that there's not a lot left over to buy a complete outfit.

Hi Tom,

 

I think a best practice would be to shoot an age-based, duelist, or GF category until they acquire "flashy and fancy" attire.

 

I've got quite a few costumes that could work for BW if only I could find shoes I like that I can stand to wear for an entire day. So, I shoot age-based.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Just an observation since I don't shoot in a "costume category," but why would someone want to shoot B Western or Classic Cowboy and then try to do the absolute minimum possible to qualify for that category? Seems like the people that enjoy these categories get part of their enjoyment from the costuming.

 

Said I was done, but just to answer your question, my dad would have met the clothing portion of B-Western with his day to day wearing apparel. It would have been exactly to the minimum, but since he owned the guns and leather already it would have only required that he go to his shed and drag out an old pair of spurs and straps to get in. Sadly, he passed before he ever got the opportunity!

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Just an observation since I don't shoot in a "costume category," but why would someone want to shoot B Western or Classic Cowboy and then try to do the absolute minimum possible to qualify for that category? Seems like the people that enjoy these categories get part of their enjoyment from the costuming.

My personal thought on the matter is - The reason Classic Cowboy isn't as much as a problem is that it has a caliber and shooting style requirement that is difficult to master.

You can put a couple of conchos on a straight hang holster set and shoot any way you want to. It is easy and inexpensive to shoot B Western with minimum costuming.....

 

Once again... This thread is not about dressing minimum. It is about the standards for "dresses" for the ladies.

If someone wants to add other changes they think is needed then hop on board.

 

Whatever the rules are, if you follow them, then you get to shoot.

My hope is that the rules become more clearly defined rather than the subjective "flashy and fancy" we have now.

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I thought I was done with this, but,,,,

 

shoot another cat under you can afford fancy and flashy???? BW is small enough now without requiring $100 shirts, at least....

 

you wana shoot BW with me? bring your snap shirts, jeans with belt, spurs, felt hat, neck tie or tightly worn scarf and fancy holsters and appropriate boots and lets go play....maybe yule git bit by the bug,,, if not, tha's ok too....

 

Allie, earthwalkers are legal if adorned with fancies,,, come play with us

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...

 

Allie, earthwalkers are legal if adorned with fancies,,, come play with us

I thought about getting pull-ons; but, went with lacers instead.

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Hi Tom,

 

I think a best practice would be to shoot an age-based, duelist, or GF category until they acquire "flashy and fancy" attire.

 

I've got quite a few costumes that could work for BW if only I could find shoes I like that I can stand to wear for an entire day. So, I shoot age-based.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

I agree, and that's what I've done for CC...

 

But, say I was more comfortable shooting several styles and wanted to look like Hoppalong Cassidy while I did it. I've got some shirts that fit the bill, but they'd be minimalist... I have spurs, scarves, etc too, just because I happened to have them prior to joining SASS. My boots aren't painted, but they have fancy stitching.

 

So, I'd be the guy that everyone is complaining about in the past couple threads. I just barely meet the rules. But by my own new and unbiased reading of them, I've complied with the rules.

 

But I'm really excited about shooting CAS, an BW.

 

So I show up to match like that, and people get upset.

 

You think I'll continue to be excited about this game when that happens? Or that I'll ever try again?

 

Maybe in addition to that, I'm spending every bit of my part of my families disposable income on reloading and gettin to the matches.

 

My point is, any of these games, shooting, racing cars, riding horses, etc... Depend on new people showing up and becoming members to keep moving forward.

 

If you allow an environment to form that shuns people for only making a black and white minimum, you'll do more than damage the category. You'll damage the sport.

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yur welcome to shoot with me anytime,,,, and at 99% of the clubs in SASS!! dunt know about those clubs complaining about minimal dress tho, maybe I'm wrong..

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Like Larsen E. Pettifogger said, "... why would someone want to shoot B Western or Classic Cowboy and then try to do the absolute minimum possible to qualify for that category?"

 

I once saw someone try to claim the small maker's stamp on the belt of an otherwise plain leather rig constituted "embellishment".

The rules say, "All belt and holster rigs must be embellished (fancy stitching, conchos, spots, or tooling).

So is an inch wide oval stamp that says, "Joe's Leather" an acceptable embellishment by itself? No, of course not, but it meets the minimum requirement as stated. Bleedin' Christ, there could be another half dozen pages added to the rule book just to define costuming and accoutrements.

 

For the people that "are just getting started" and can't afford a fancier outfit, I would have to ask, when they were just getting started, were they allowed to use their one newly acquired sixgun with their existing Taurus 24/7 and 10/22 because they couldn't afford the rest right away? Not likely.

 

If they're just getting started and can't put together the proper attire for a category, then do what Allie Mo suggested and shoot in a category that is easier to outfit for. If someone is shooting B-Western and nobody else realizes it (which I've seen more than once), then they need to put a lot more work into what they're wearing.

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yur welcome to shoot with me anytime,,,, and at 99% of the clubs in SASS!! dunt know about those clubs complaining about minimal dress tho, maybe I'm wrong..

Honestly, I haven't met a single person face to face in SASS that would lead me to believe I'd have a problem.

 

But...

 

My last hobby has been all but destroyed by an elitist attitude that led to a few threads like this blowing up on a couple forums.

 

Next season you had guys out there spending 5-6 grand on stuff to conform to the rules and keep an edge, with everyone that couldn't afford that standing around PO'd that they didn't win.

 

In no time at all nobody remembered why they got into it in the first place, and fun and fellowship went right out the window in the name of "doing this the way it ought to be done."

 

Not my idea of a good time.

 

And it all started with a couple threads on a forum.

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