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Anvil Al #59168

TG VOTE

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Find it funny that we can trick out guns to the max - short stroke, straighten triggers, weaken springs, slix shot nipples, shoot 400 FPS bullets, make space age comfortable boots legal in classic cowboy but we rail against belt loops, wranglers, pointy toed boots and basic rodeo wear as not cowboy enough. Seems to me we should probably widen out tent a bit. Having been there I remember Gene Autry, Tom Mix, Wallace Berry etc., for the young folks Rodeo is what they know of the west and Cowboys.

For the records I dont wear wranglers but you are right about the young cowboys, Who is Gene Autry, Tom Mix, Wallace Berry?

 

Wonder if they fussed about the rules changing? :blush:

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+1

 

If your club has you moving in front of the muzzle. There is bigger problems than this rule.

you got it......and were we all not taught that ALL guns are HOT (loaded) until proved different. I don't like walking in front of my downed long gun's muzzle when practicing even knowing they are empty and can see ACTION OPEN.....just ain't cool.

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Not sure what giving it a chance has to do with my pointing out a safety issue related to the new rule.

 

Explain to me how this doesn't reduce safety.

 

As a TO are you going to be comfortable with downrange movement and a cocked action closed firearm behind you.

 

What if its a 9 round stage and the shooter loads 10. Everyone counts the rounds and all ASSUME the rifle is clear. It happens.....do you want to be that TO?

 

But stan no one is supposed to touch that rifle except the shooter. Yep and of course everything always goes as planned.

 

Just sayin.....if you're a TO these are new things to consider.

 

Stan

Just my 2cents. But at any range I have ever shot at with Down range movement either the guns are staged vertical or pointed to the side berm. You should NEVER move down range if there is a gun pointed in the direction you are headed to. And ANY T/O worth a lick will either make the shooter point the muzzle twords the berm or if it's questionable, push the muzzle over a little farther as they go by. In my time with sass I have NEVER seen competitions down range in front of a muzzle. If I ever did see it I would voice my concern for people's safety and if it continued I would leave.

 

If you have ever found yourself down range with your muzzle pointed at you,

 

1) YOU SCREWED UP.

If the stage required it and you decided to do it, well ya can't fix stupid folks

 

If the stage didn't require it and you set the gun wrong, and if your T/O didn't call you back to fix an unsafe gun staging then you deserve a DQ for unsafe gun handling and your T/O needs to be replaced !!!!

 

Muzzle control both while shooting and staging the firearm is YOUR RESPONSABILITY, but every one is a safety officer if anybody sees down range movement where you are gonna be in front of a muzzle they need to yell stop. It's really that simple

You are trying to make a mountain out of a nonexistent molehill. Hell your trying to make a mountain out of a valley.

 

And quite frankly if you think this makes our game insanely unsafe I will gladly trade you some knitting needles and a ball of yarn for your cowboy guns and you can make sweaters as a hobby

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At my club and a few other clubs around FL and the SE sometimes we will shoot the rifle then restage pointed in a safe direction so shooter and TO maybe spotters can go down range without rifle pointed thier way , now that does not mean that somebody could not pick it up and point it down range accidently , to bring up it would not happen because somebody will get a penalty is absurd ( & I never use that word). Sure folks are not suppost to touch it but I would feel a heck of alot better if action were open.

 

My gun club and a few other clubs I go to as a casual shooter (just shooting , not cowboy) how you leave your firearm is action open & empty pointed downrange and shooters go downrange to set or change targets, nobody's allowed to touch guns while this is happening this a "cold range", it does not bother me at all to have a open empty gun pointed at me in fact it happens everytime I pull my gun cart.

 

I hate when a shooter gets a MSV for the lever not being open but that said it's safe position even if there is around in it and you can usually tell there is a round in it visually without even touching the firearm.

 

LIke I said before it's crazy that #1 passed and #2 did not.

 

I dont really care that much about #2 but I dont see a need for it with the 170 covered it and like I said before it not enforced properly that I have seen.See post #56 for example.

 

I think clubs are going to have to decide whether there going to have add back the lever open especially if there is downrange movement.

 

AO

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I gues once you see a round go off from a vertically staged rife that the shooter and RO thought was safe AFTER the stage was over and that round was not too far from the RO's head you think about the what ifs a little more than others.

 

It's not during the stage that concerns me it is the AFTER the stage.

 

So you can call it a valley all you want. I've seen it happen.

 

Stan

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Guess any club could have a club rule that it still must stay open.

Or the stage writer can write it into the stages that if might come up.

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You could put a "hot" gun down before...and get the same SDQ penalty.

The requirement to clear the action of ANY ammo to avoid a penalty remains as well.

The difference is that, if the previously OPENED action happens to somehow CLOSE upon restaging with no rounds (live or spent) remaining, there will be no MSV penalty for the action being in that condition.

 

If one insists on MISunderstanding what was passed, no amount of restating the rule will convince them otherwise...IMO.

 

 

 

YES...had a shooter at a STATE match try to invoke the "shag carpet rule" ... it went all the way from the PM to the RM & MD; then to a 3-person review panel.

The shooter LOST the appeal.

True. But before, the shooter would HAVE to clear that gun, provided someone noticed the lever was closed....

 

I see this rule change as a positive one BUT...there are some valid concerns. You wouldn't think that a LOADED rifle/shotgun would be able to fire if it is HORIZONTALLY staged and no one touches it. Until someone touches it, that is. People really need to watch their muzzles when picking this type of rifle up AND, clear it safely before proceeding further would be my preference.

 

Vertical staging, whole different animal.

 

Given the penchant for cowboys to tinker with the guts of their firearms, it is not beyond the realm that said long gun may in fact BE ABLE TO FIRE if it falls from a staged position or is DROPPED when retrieved.

 

This is not a negative to the new ruling, I actually think the new ruling is a good thing HOWEVER.....it behooves RO's to take the above issues into account. Just a different way of doing business.

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We should long ago have adopted the rule we have in WBAS -- no one but the shooter touches the shooter's guns at any time.

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True. But before, the shooter would HAVE to clear that gun, provided someone noticed the lever was closed....

 

I see this rule change as a positive one BUT...there are some valid concerns. You wouldn't think that a LOADED rifle/shotgun would be able to fire if it is HORIZONTALLY staged and no one touches it. Until someone touches it, that is. People really need to watch their muzzles when picking this type of rifle up AND, clear it safely before proceeding further would be my preference.

 

Vertical staging, whole different animal.

 

Given the penchant for cowboys to tinker with the guts of their firearms, it is not beyond the realm that said long gun may in fact BE ABLE TO FIRE if it falls from a staged position or is DROPPED when retrieved.

 

This is not a negative to the new ruling, I actually think the new ruling is a good thing HOWEVER.....it behooves RO's to take the above issues into account. Just a different way of doing business.

I'm not aware of any previous Rule that required the shooter to open the lever if told to do so. They can just take the MSV and move on.

 

Therefore...nothing has changed.

 

Phantom

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I'm not aware of any previous Rule that required the shooter to open the lever if told to do so. They can just take the MSV and move on.

 

Therefore...nothing has changed.

 

Phantom

You said it.

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I'm not aware of any previous Rule that required the shooter to open the lever if told to do so. They can just take the MSV and move on.

 

Therefore...nothing has changed.

 

Phantom

Right, there is/was no such rule. Many shooters, especially if they had cocked the next gun, would just leave the lever closed. When you go through all the parade of horribles posted so far, everything that has been mentioned can and did occur under the "old" rule. The new rule will only save someone from a penalty if it is empty.

 

As a matter of information, I attended at least three Regional TG meetings, EOT and WR where this was discussed. A lot of people kept getting excited that the "gamers" (those nasty gamers again) would simply fire the last shot, not lever the gun and put it down. There are, in fact, many people that support letting shooters do this. The reasoning is that virtually every time we shoot a revolver the hammer is down on a spent round and that a rifle hammer (or any long gun) that is down on a spent round poses no more of a hazard. The new rule did NOT do that. The shooter is still required to open the gun after the last shot. The rule simply makes the circumstance where the action closes on an empty chamber a no call. If there is an empty casing or a loaded round in the gun the penalties are the same as they have always been. (MSV and SDQ respectively.) I for one will be glad not hearing the TO screaming "OPEN THE LEVER" when it is down and half closed.

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I'm not aware of any previous Rule that required the shooter to open the lever if told to do so. They can just take the MSV and move on.

 

Therefore...nothing has changed.

 

Phantom

As you know if the lever was closed the 10 sec penalty was in place as soon as you shot the next gun . So everyone I have seen that HEARD that the gun had closed took the time to open it to save 10 sec . Now there is no 10 sec if gun closes as long as its empty . That is a change because most people if not all will not take the time to open the gun ASSuming it is empty . What is the first rule of gun safety ? I am curious how many times you've seen someone take the 10 sec rather than open it .

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Under this rule change would it be improper coaching if you tell shooter lever because it's closed and shooter opens and it's clear ?


I'm assuming under rule change you just dont say anything to shooter if lever closes and if lever is closed Shooter & TO check rifle to see if clear of a empty or live rd or if not penalty is added ?

 

 


 


 


AO

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As you know if the lever was closed the 10 sec penalty was in place as soon as you shot the next gun . So everyone I have seen that HEARD that the gun had closed took the time to open it to save 10 sec . Now there is no 10 sec if gun closes as long as its empty . That is a change because most people if not all will not take the time to open the gun ASSuming it is empty . What is the first rule of gun safety ? I am curious how many times you've seen someone take the 10 sec rather than open it .

The rule hasn't even been posted yet, but it is my understanding that the long gun must be shown clear by the shooter on the line before it is moved to the unloading table. Something pops out that is not aupposd to, assess the alpropriate penalty. No assuming about it being empty.

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The rule hasn't even been posted yet, but it is my understanding that the long gun must be shown clear by the shooter on the line before it is moved to the unloading table. Something pops out that is not aupposd to, assess the alpropriate penalty. No assuming about it being empty.

That's why after the action closes the shooter yells out "malfunction" and continues to shoot through the course of fire. Oh, my extractor is weak!

I don't disagree with the new rule, I do have some questions. Need to see how the rule is written.

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Everyone had a chance to get there TG to vote.

 

Did yours???

How did your club want it to go?

Do you even know how your club voted?

Or if your club voted??

Vote was : yes, no, no, no

Al

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Jack lets keep it simple . We could be down range of a loaded , closed and cocked gun . I will operate by this new rule . I just don't think it was made with safety being the priority . The ASSuming part comes from post #76 saying how much do they need to do to make an EMPTY gun open .

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My NMV still have the factory hammers on them.

 

And isn't the bisley hammer narrower than the SBH hammer?

But it a LOT lower!!

Al

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I think I'll just pick up brass (with a long picker) from now on.

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But it a LOT lower!!

Al

Even if it was, with all the short stroke kits or mods legally available, why would it matter?

 

But when you say it is a lot lower...lower than what? The SBH hammer, the standard, what?

 

http://s228.photobucket.com/user/pettifogger1/media/topview.jpg.html

 

Mr pettifogger provided a good picture of the Ruger Hammers for comparison.

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Jack lets keep it simple . We could be down range of a loaded , closed and cocked gun . I will operate by this new rule . I just don't think it was made with safety being the priority . The ASSuming part comes from post #76 saying how much do they need to do to make an EMPTY gun open .

I must be missing something here. Can this not happen under the old rule and the new rule both? Under the old rule, shooter puts down a rifle with lever closed, moves on and completes stage. Under new rule same thing happens. Only thing new is that if the gun is empty completely (checked by shooter and RO at end of stage) the shooter gets a no call. Anything else, the penalties are the exact same.

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This is a good rule change.

 

Billy Boots said it, we should always assume a gun is loaded and treat them that way. Stage writers and match directors will have to be a little more specific on down-range stages. That might have been needful anyway, if this will be an issue now where you shoot.

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As you know if the lever was closed the 10 sec penalty was in place as soon as you shot the next gun . So everyone I have seen that HEARD that the gun had closed took the time to open it to save 10 sec . Now there is no 10 sec if gun closes as long as its empty . That is a change because most people if not all will not take the time to open the gun ASSuming it is empty . What is the first rule of gun safety ? I am curious how many times you've seen someone take the 10 sec rather than open it .

Oh fer gawds sake...here it is, a gun is always considered loaded...so...I guess we should just stop playing this game.

 

To answer your question...though not real relevant...I've seen just about everything done...many times. Now since we are on irrelevant topics, how many times have you seen someone come back to open their action only to find out that NOTHING came flying out of the action????

 

The idea that any element that can improve safety is worthwhile and should be imposed would lead to a shooting sport that required no bullets and padded suits!

 

Phantom

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Hello the Camp!
Well folks, as promised, I have the ROC's clarifications for you below.
I must take a moment to tell you all that we strongly urge you all to pass the word along to your club membership, and to those TGs and RO Instructors who were not at the TG meeting, and to those who do not keep up on changes in the rules. It is essential that we all take on the responsibility to educate and inform our shooting pards of the following information.
The following is essentially what was passed and is NOW in effect:
"If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied (at the end of the string), it will be a NO CALL if in fact, the firearm is empty. If a spent case or live round is ejected, a penalty will apply. The shooter will be the only person allowed to handle the firearm, and the firearm should be left for the shooter to open at the end of the stage."
So this is what we have, as an example:
Shooter shoots the rifle/shotgun, then opens and empties it at the end of the string. After doing so the shooter places the long gun down, and for whatever reason, the action closes. In our view, three possibilities exist:
1. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
If nothing is ejected = NO CALL
2. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF an empty casing is ejected = MSV (Minor Safety)
Clarification: If shooter returns to open & clear the action of a long gun before firing the next gun on the stage = NO CALL (same as current rule...exception is #3 below): In other words nothing stops the shooter from returning before being committed to the next firearm to open the action, if they wish, as per the current rule.
3. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF a live/unfired round is ejected = Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooters hand, with
the action closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber.
In this case there is no opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the
next firearm - penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.
NOTE: This is the same penalty for a cocked/loaded revolver leaving the shooter's hand, and will be added to the SDQ section of the "Penalty Overview" in the RO1. (This has been an oversight until now).
One of the biggest issues that needs to be understood by ALL SHOOTERs is that if a long gun action inadvertently closes after being opened and emptied, THE SHOOTER is the ONLY PERSON who may touch the firearm.
To all CROs/TOs:
It is imperative that CROs/TOs supervise and control the situation appropriately. The CRO/TO must ensure that the long gun remains untouched until the shooter, and only the shooter, returns to open it, and also under the supervision of the CRO/TO, to determine the penalty, if any.
I have read in the previous posts folks talking about walking in front of long guns that have been staged after use. As many have said before me, if your club is writing stages that allows shooters to move IN FRONT of their long guns, then I would strongly suggest that you get some better stage writers. This practice is clearly unsafe and NOT supported by the lowest, basic of common sense. In reality, I would be very surprised to see that it is a common practice. If you need to move down range after using your long guns, then you must restage your long guns vertically or with muzzles pointed into a safe area (berm), as per the practices of many well produced matches do.
There will be questions I am sure. We shall do our best to answer them.......
Cheers,
BJZ

 

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Phantom,

Give me a call when you can.....Thanks!

 

BJZ

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Hello the Camp!
Well folks, as promised, I have the ROC's clarifications for you below.
I must take a moment to tell you all that we strongly urge you all to pass the word along to your club membership, and to those TGs and RO Instructors who were not at the TG meeting, and to those who do not keep up on changes in the rules. It is essential that we all take on the responsibility to educate and inform our shooting pards of the following information.
The following is essentially what was passed and is NOW in effect:
"If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied (at the end of the string), it will be a NO CALL if in fact, the firearm is empty. If a spent case or live round is ejected, a penalty will apply. The shooter will be the only person allowed to handle the firearm, and the firearm should be left for the shooter to open at the end of the stage."
So this is what we have, as an example:
Shooter shoots the rifle/shotgun, then opens and empties it at the end of the string. After doing so the shooter places the long gun down, and for whatever reason, the action closes. In our view, three possibilities exist:
1. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
If nothing is ejected = NO CALL
2. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF an empty casing is ejected = MSV (Minor Safety)
Clarification: If shooter returns to open & clear the action of a long gun before firing the next gun on the stage = NO CALL (same as current rule...exception is #3 below): In other words nothing stops the shooter from returning before being committed to the next firearm to open the action, if they wish, as per the current rule.
3. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF a live/unfired round is ejected = Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooters hand, with
the action closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber.
In this case there is no opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the
next firearm - penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.
NOTE: This is the same penalty for a cocked/loaded revolver leaving the shooter's hand, and will be added to the SDQ section of the "Penalty Overview" in the RO1. (This has been an oversight until now).
One of the biggest issues that needs to be understood by ALL SHOOTERs is that if a long gun action inadvertently closes after being opened and emptied, THE SHOOTER is the ONLY PERSON who may touch the firearm.
To all CROs/TOs:
It is imperative that CROs/TOs supervise and control the situation appropriately. The CRO/TO must ensure that the long gun remains untouched until the shooter, and only the shooter, returns to open it, and also under the supervision of the CRO/TO, to determine the penalty, if any.
I have read in the previous posts folks talking about walking in front of long guns that have been staged after use. As many have said before me, if your club is writing stages that allows shooters to move IN FRONT of their long guns, then I would strongly suggest that you get some better stage writers. This practice is clearly unsafe and NOT supported by the lowest, basic of common sense. In reality, I would be very surprised to see that it is a common practice. If you need to move down range after using your long guns, then you must restage your long guns vertically or with muzzles pointed into a safe area (berm), as per the practices of many well produced matches do.
There will be questions I am sure. We shall do our best to answer them.......
Cheers,
BJZ

 

 

Hello the Camp!
Well folks, as promised, I have the ROC's clarifications for you below.
I must take a moment to tell you all that we strongly urge you all to pass the word along to your club membership, and to those TGs and RO Instructors who were not at the TG meeting, and to those who do not keep up on changes in the rules. It is essential that we all take on the responsibility to educate and inform our shooting pards of the following information.
The following is essentially what was passed and is NOW in effect:
"If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied (at the end of the string), it will be a NO CALL if in fact, the firearm is empty. If a spent case or live round is ejected, a penalty will apply. The shooter will be the only person allowed to handle the firearm, and the firearm should be left for the shooter to open at the end of the stage."
So this is what we have, as an example:
Shooter shoots the rifle/shotgun, then opens and empties it at the end of the string. After doing so the shooter places the long gun down, and for whatever reason, the action closes. In our view, three possibilities exist:
1. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
If nothing is ejected = NO CALL
2. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF an empty casing is ejected = MSV (Minor Safety)
Clarification: If shooter returns to open & clear the action of a long gun before firing the next gun on the stage = NO CALL (same as current rule...exception is #3 below): In other words nothing stops the shooter from returning before being committed to the next firearm to open the action, if they wish, as per the current rule.
3. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF a live/unfired round is ejected = Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooters hand, with
the action closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber.
In this case there is no opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the
next firearm - penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.
NOTE: This is the same penalty for a cocked/loaded revolver leaving the shooter's hand, and will be added to the SDQ section of the "Penalty Overview" in the RO1. (This has been an oversight until now).
One of the biggest issues that needs to be understood by ALL SHOOTERs is that if a long gun action inadvertently closes after being opened and emptied, THE SHOOTER is the ONLY PERSON who may touch the firearm.
To all CROs/TOs:
It is imperative that CROs/TOs supervise and control the situation appropriately. The CRO/TO must ensure that the long gun remains untouched until the shooter, and only the shooter, returns to open it, and also under the supervision of the CRO/TO, to determine the penalty, if any.
I have read in the previous posts folks talking about walking in front of long guns that have been staged after use. As many have said before me, if your club is writing stages that allows shooters to move IN FRONT of their long guns, then I would strongly suggest that you get some better stage writers. This practice is clearly unsafe and NOT supported by the lowest, basic of common sense. In reality, I would be very surprised to see that it is a common practice. If you need to move down range after using your long guns, then you must restage your long guns vertically or with muzzles pointed into a safe area (berm), as per the practices of many well produced matches do.
There will be questions I am sure. We shall do our best to answer them.......
Cheers,
BJZ

Under this rule change would it be improper coaching if you tell shooter lever because it's closed and shooter opens and it's clear ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm assuming under rule change you just dont say anything to shooter if lever closes and if lever is closed Shooter & TO check rifle to see if clear of a empty or live rd or if not penalty is added ?

 

 

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Phantom,

Give me a call when you can.....Thanks!

 

BJZ

Done...now edit this post and remove yer number...never know who might be wantin to call ya.

 

:o:P

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Phantom , to answer your question I have seen live and shot ammo come out just a few times . I have never applied for a new safety rule . I am not looking for any more rules . You said nothing has changed and I showed you how it has . You could try and defend your statement but you would rather ramble on about over the top safety which no one is asking for . Its a weak way to dodge the issue which is the rule was changed for the wrong reason . I will benefit by this rule like everyone else ( as long as there are no accidents) I just don't agree with it .

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

At the risk of whining...

 

The action rule could be looked at as an ease up deal. Folks will still fire the requisite rounds and eject them. Once the rounds are fired and ejected the rifle goes into a scabbard or such and then closes a little or completely then no call. The long gun can be shown clear if closed or if not taken to the ULT per usual.

 

All of the same penalties apply and I guess all of the safety issues could happen either way. Just easing up?

 

I gave Palewolf heart burn over changes for change sake but also examined these and came to accept the merits of each. The trigger deal wasn't really needed, the dropped rounds was good either way and so on.

 

Maybe pushing to have dropped rounds a mandatory retrieve can be next :)

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Cinch,

 

I think you got the point. Thanks for seeing the merits of the rule changes.

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.

Phantom , to answer your question I have seen live and shot ammo come out just a few times . I have never applied for a new safety rule . I am not looking for any more rules . You said nothing has changed and I showed you how it has . You could try and defend your statement but you would rather ramble on about over the top safety which no one is asking for . Its a weak way to dodge the issue which is the rule was changed for the wrong reason . I will benefit by this rule like everyone else ( as long as there are no accidents) I just don't agree with it .

 

And you do not have to agree with this rule. As Match Director, depending upon your club's rules regarding range rules, you can decide to not implement it. The rule passed by an overwhelming majority of the TGs.

 

What I don't understand is how this rule passed yet we still are concerned by the evil empty hull left in an open shotgun action.

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.

 

And you do not have to agree with this rule. As Match Director, depending upon your club's rules regarding range rules, you can decide to not implement it. The rule passed by an overwhelming majority of the TGs.

 

What I don't understand is how this rule passed yet we still are concerned by the evil empty hull left in an open shotgun action.

 

 

+1 thats was my point from the beginning, like #2 with the dropped rds

 

AO

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.

 

And you do not have to agree with this rule. As Match Director, depending upon your club's rules regarding range rules, you can decide to not implement it. The rule passed by an overwhelming majority of the TGs.

 

What I don't understand is how this rule passed yet we still are concerned by the evil empty hull left in an open shotgun action.

Exactly , that is a rule I would have liked to see go .

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