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Anvil Al #59168

TG VOTE

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Phantom , to answer your question I have seen live and shot ammo come out just a few times . I have never applied for a new safety rule . I am not looking for any more rules . You said nothing has changed and I showed you how it has . You could try and defend your statement but you would rather ramble on about over the top safety which no one is asking for . Its a weak way to dodge the issue which is the rule was changed for the wrong reason . I will benefit by this rule like everyone else ( as long as there are no accidents) I just don't agree with it .

You may want to believe something has changed...that's fine...I'll try to refrain from any more ramblings.

 

But, nothing has changed. I can't account for how folks will respond to the rule...so if you are saying that things have changed because people's behavior will change...where the change will have IMHO zero negative affect on safety...then fine...

 

I do find it funny how you throw in that last statement in parenthesis, like the new rule will make this game somehow less safe...when again, nothing has changed. If the gun laid down is pointed in a safe direction, then it's "Safe" regardless of whether there is a round in the chamber with the hammer cocked. If it's not safe, then it's not laying pointed in a safe direction. If that's the case, then calling the shooting back is futile in eliminating a penalty as that penalty has already been earned. As you noted, we should always consider a gun as loaded. Moving down range? Again, the position of the long gun must be such that it is safe regardless of whether the long gun's action is closed...open...in between...loaded...unloaded...vaporizing into a parallel universe.

 

Anyway, sorry for rambling...as I know you're sensitive to me doing so.

 

Phantomrambler

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Thanks Stan,

 

Spread the word if you can. I know some folks are having heartburn about the TO's role now, and how it should be applied.

 

I my opinion, it would not be "improper coaching" to advise the shooter that their action may be closed. It is now entirely up to the shooter, however, to decide what they want to do. They do NOT have to return to open it.....they alone run the risk of leaving an empty or live round in the long gun (if it was overloaded, etc).

 

If they are sure of their actions, they should continue....... This puts the onus on the shooter! (something which the sport has been moving away from, and to its detriment.....IMHO)

 

 

TO ALL:

 

I would advise giving the clarification some thought, and try to "get your heads" around it. The ROC has had months to work this out, and has had the benefit of having time to get our heads around it. :)

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Sensitive ? I've never been accused of having feelings . Thanks

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Phantom....you may want to edit your post where you quoted BJZ and his phone number appears in your posting where you quoted him.

 

Kajun

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Vertical staging sucks more than a 10 second penalty. Nothing like replacing sights after every match.

What about staging/making safe long guns in barrels (plastic like 3-Gun) muzzle down!?

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The problem with the new rule isnt that potentially a closed gun with a round in the chamber is being laid down because as many people have already pointed out, it could happen before. The problem is that instead of "LEVER!" being yelled, no one will say anything and it will be left there for probably 15 seconds to a minute longer depending on stage design/shooter. Yes, with the old rule some people may leave it and take the penalty, but now EVERYONE will leave it and there will be occasions where people will be down range of a cocked loaded gun and as stated before just because people are told not to touch it doesnt mean theyll listen.

 

Personally I think that the rule should be either action open or action closed with the hammer down. It may sound "gamey", but if you think about it a gun with a hammer down on a dead round is really as safe as possible being that youd have to open it and close it again for it to be cocked. You could say that you dont know its a dead round until you open it but the new rule leaves the same mystery only difference being the gun in the new rule will most likely be cocked.

 

Just food for thought.

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Sensitive ? I've never been accused of having feelings . Thanks

Sensitivity...and feelings. Two things that can have nothing to do with one another...but that's another rambling that I'll save for another time.

 

Phantomramblingonsensitivity

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The problem with the new rule isnt that potentially a closed gun with a round in the chamber is being laid down because as many people have already pointed out, it could happen before. The problem is that instead of "LEVER!" being yelled, no one will say anything and it will be left there for probably 15 seconds to a minute longer depending on stage design/shooter. Yes, with the old rule some people may leave it and take the penalty, but now EVERYONE will leave it and there will be occasions where people will be down range of a cocked loaded gun and as stated before just because people are told not to touch it doesnt mean theyll listen.

 

Personally I think that the rule should be either action open or action closed with the hammer down. It may sound "gamey", but if you think about it a gun with a hammer down on a dead round is really as safe as possible being that youd have to open it and close it again for it to be cocked. You could say that you dont know its a dead round until you open it but the new rule leaves the same mystery only difference being the gun in the new rule will most likely be cocked.

 

Just food for thought.

Tuco,

 

Thanks for your post. I am not sure how long you have been shooting, but it is common practice among all the clubs, at all the venues that I have been that nobody goes down range (past their staged or re-staged after use firearms) until all the firearms have been picked up and moved to the unloading table. If you have people in clubs doing that, then are bigger problems in that club.....know what I mean? This would, I hope, be a common sense issue. Problem is common sense is not so common......LOL.

 

Cheers,

BJZ

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Yep, I'm staging guns and returning them to poorly designed vertical racks in a rather timely manner. :huh:

However, have not had to deal with many in the last 5-6 years. Vertical staging has just about gone away like Elvis, gone but not forgotten.

 

See you at WR,

 

Assassin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

r

in the old west, vertical stageing was all over the place

and I see elvis from time to time (still)

 

geeese

 

arrrr

 

golly - cheeze - wiz

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What about staging/making safe long guns in barrels (plastic like 3-Gun) muzzle down!?

AR ,Bullpup sights are much tougher than those on our rifles. Tables and horizontal staging is fine as long as guns are pointed into the berm and not pointing downrange in the direction of the travel of the shooter and TO. I do feel some shooters will make a feeble attempt at best to insure their actions stay open when placed on tables or racks. This rule should, in theory, decrease the time it takes to run a scenario.

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in the old west, vertical stageing was all over the place

and I see elvis from time to time (still)

 

geeese

 

arrrr

 

golly - cheeze - wiz

In the old west during a gun fight, guns would be dropped in the dirt. I really don't like vertical racks and they could be a deciding factor when picking a match. You going to tell me you have never jacked up a sight on a POS vertical rack? How many guns have you seen hit the dirt when they fell out or off the side of a vertical rack? You and I have been shooting along time and typically agree on most subjects. Get your butt over to HOW this year, lots of down range movement, lots of lateral movement, and NO vertical racks. We have wide shooting bays with good berms and we take advantage of the berms. I need to talk with you about a couple trucks when you have time. Gotta go I have to chase an Elfis out of the barn.

 

Assassin

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Tuco,

 

Thanks for your post. I am not sure how long you have been shooting, but it is common practice among all the clubs, at all the venues that I have been that nobody goes down range (past their staged or re-staged after use firearms) until all the firearms have been picked up and moved to the unloading table. If you have people in clubs doing that, then are bigger problems in that club.....know what I mean? This would, I hope, be a common sense issue. Problem is common sense is not so common......LOL.

 

Cheers,

BJZ

Im not saying that people are walking in front of the barrels of the guns (being swept). Im referring to down range movement and situations like Stan referred to earlier.

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Im not saying that people are walking in front of the barrels of the guns (being swept). Im referring to down range movement and situations like Stan referred to earlier.

Hey Tuco,

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Even in that case, matches should be designed such that where there is down-range movement during the stage, any long guns used must be re-staged (after use) either vertically or with muzzles pointing into the berm. Shooters should not be allowed to move downrange in front of any muzzle. This is just good stage design.

 

At Winter Range I design down range movement for at least 3 stages. Shooters are required to re-stage either vertically or with muzzles pointing into berm. I will have some sort of marker/barrier by which the long gun muzzle will naturally point into the berm when re-staged horizontally on a flat surface (box or bale).

 

Cheers,

BJZ

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As a someone who spends much of his time TO'ing I am excited about the change. For me I will continue to count shots and watch the last casing clear all long guns. The new rule does not prohibit the TO from safely assisting the shooter. My focus can 100% can now be on the gun and muzzle direction rather than having to worry if I'm making that split second decision on whether a long gun is opened or closed. As a TO if a shooter only shoots 9 from the rifle instead of the prescribed 10 I will be letting the shooter know. Yes it will take some education to get used to this change. This does place more ownership on the shooter which is something we have been moving away from. Stage design approach will be as important as it always is. Believe me folks there was much thought and energy put into this, it was not a fly by night decision.

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I have to agree with Stan on this one. Safety is safety and fair or convenient comes second every time. The re-shoot exists as much for the incorrect safety intervention as it does for a full-on body check by the TO who thought you were going the other way. Ever seen someone shot on the range during a competition? I have, just before he fell on top of me (not SASS), and it was because of just such a judgment call where the shooter could have been stopped moments beforehand. If I, as a TO, Spotter, or just plain old waiting my turn to shoot, you can bet your *ss, that I will scream LOUD and FURIOUSLY, before I let anybody run downrange in front of a gun I suspect MAY have a round in the chamber. If I am wrong, then I will say "SORRY" and lobby for his re-shoot.

In addition, in the few hours since all this came down the pike, I have heard from not one, but two, local clubs, that they have simply decided to ignore the change and call it a "range rule". I suspect some more will follow, and that is the beauty of local "range safety rules". They allow for the range to be "more" safe if they disagree with the parameters of the sanctioned rules. For those that feel strongly about this, there is, at least, that option. Lobby your local club.

Celero

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Since we have a range that we frequently move downrange for the stages our club, as well as our host club, have decided this rule will not be implemented. I cannot see why it was changed in the first place. If the lever closed you had to open it plain and simple. I think this will just lead to some shooters (we all know who they are) to recklessly disguard their long guns.

 

JEL

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Hey boys I never said I wouldn't use the rule if I was running a match. I said I was concerned over the possibility stated. It is not the end of the world. I suggest we try it and be vigilante about the shooter being the only one to touch the gun IF the lever is closed.

 

JEL,

They still have to open the gun to eject the last round. It's all on the shooter if the fail to follow all the other safety rules.

 

Stan

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I like the new rule.

On most stages. It is a non issue.

 

 

And like I said. IF you have a stage that it MIGHT be an issue.

 

Just have the stage writer write it into the stage instructions, that on THAT stage, the lever

must remain open when restaging.

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I just read the last 2 1/2 pages and y'all made my head hurt :blink:

 

I took two Tylenol and I'm good for another two or three pages

 

Carry on

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Hey boys I never said I wouldn't use the rule if I was running a match. I said I was concerned over the possibility stated. It is not the end of the world. I suggest we try it and be vigilante about the shooter being the only one to touch the gun IF the lever is closed.

 

JEL,

They still have to open the gun to eject the last round. It's all on the shooter if the fail to follow all the other safety rules.

 

Stan

 

I still think the biggest problem with this rule is it leading to shooters just throwing the rifle down because they don't have to worry about the lever closing. It happens frequently now WITH the rule in place so take away the penalty and I think it will dramatically increase. Once a shooter gets in the habit of just throwing the rifle down and then add on the accidental 10 rds on a 9 rd stage?? It's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Only time will tell.

 

An please don't reply, "Then you should be penalizing them for unsafe firearm handling" because there are many, many, shooters who just throw their rifles down now (and IMO unsafely) and the "unsafe firearm handling" penality is never called. I've have only seen it called one time and the match director immediately overturned it, without even discussing it with the TO.

 

So my problem with this new rule change isn't with the after i.e. carrier is clear so it's a no call and if not a penality; it's with the before as with the reckless disgard of the rifle BECAUSE of the assumption that there is no penalty for what they believe is a empty chamber.

 

JEL

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Several people have posted about the new ruling of the straight trigger. Let me explain because maybe you don't know or maybe you don't shoot a marlin rifle. The trigger in marlin rifles have a lot of movement forward to back in them from the factory. The movement is from the trigger and sear not being connected in the rifle. Every time you lever the rifle the trigger is actually moving forward and backwards in the rifle and if the trigger is in the upward position when you close the lever it will pinch or stick through your finger

 

Example if you have a marlin at home take and put it to your shoulder and lever it open, now take your opposite hand and move the trigger forward with your finger and close the lever. Now your finger is caught between the trigger and the bottom of the finger lever and you will have just injured your self if you were shooting .

Marlins were never made from the factory to run at the speed cowboys are running them today. If you shoot them slower then you might not ever injure your self with one. But if your going to be competitive with a marlin and shoot it fairly fast I would bet good money you have at least pinched your trigger finger once or twice. If shooter "A" is shooting a blistering stage and levers his good ol' marlin and runs the trigger through his finger who knows what his reaction is gonna be. He might drop the rifle , turn with the rifle who knows ? Then it could possibly become a safety issue to the shooter, TO, counters and everyone one else in the path of the loaded rifle. The new designed straight triggers are simply only straight about the last 1/8 of an inch at the bottom portion of the trigger . The trigger is then connected to the sear to stop the trigger from moving forward and backwards in the rifle when levering it. This actually moves the trigger a little further back in the trigger guard and makes it almost impossible to get your finger caught. With the trigger being set back and a little further to reach it is not a "GAMER" advantage at all. This mod was done to help aid the shooter and make his/her shooting experience better for the sport.

At convention a "shooter/TG" came by the booth and looked at the trigger before vote time. They explained how they did not see the need for it and they had NEVER pinched their finger. I simply smiled and finished talking with them and shook their hand as they left to go shoot the wax match. The next morning the same "shooter/TG" was standing at my booth, this time holding up their trigger finger. Shooter/TG stated "look what I did at the wax match yesterday on that marlin rifle !!!!" Yep, pinched their trigger finger ,I just simply smiled and shook the shooters opposite hand . Shooter/TG said " think I will vote for it now". With all this being said if you shoot a marlin it will happen just give it time.

Thanks for all the hard work and time that the RO commitee and the TG's put into our sport to make it a better place to shoot.

 

Cheers,

 

Slick McClade

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Since we have a range that we frequently move downrange for the stages our club, as well as our host club, have decided this rule will not be implemented. I cannot see why it was changed in the first place. If the lever closed you had to open it plain and simple. I think this will just lead to some shooters (we all know who they are) to recklessly disguard their long guns.

 

JEL

I don't understand...you mean you'll move down range with a long gun pointed at ya if the lever is open?

 

Sorry...don't get it.

 

Phantom

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Last thought on lever. How can anything place more responsiblity on the shooter then, Cowboy will safely ground rifle with the action open.

You missed the "pointed downrange" part.

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There is a procedure and proper paperwork . These mods have been done since early 2000 and everyone thought it fell under the re profiling section. After further re view the powers that be thought it needed to be addressed , so everything was put on hold ( hip shots pinned post) until a proper vote could be held. I submitted the proper paperwork and went through the process to have it voted on with the help of a couple other key people. And now here we are :). I did not take offense to any of the previous comments but I only wanted it explained to those whom might not have known the reason .

 

Slick

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You know what's funny?

 

These Voting items had zero issue here on the Wire before the vote (with the exception of the trigger item)...I figured that they would all pass since folks seemed to have no problems with them...wish they ALL passed myself.

 

The only thing that seemed to raise a fuss was the Jeans issue...which wasn't even a voting item...

 

And now, after the fact, folks are complaining. Guess they figured that the items wouldn't pass so there was no need to debate.

 

I don't know why I find this funny...just do.

 

Phantom

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You know what's funny?

 

These Voting items had zero issue here on the Wire before the vote (with the exception of the trigger item)...I figured that they would all pass since folks seemed to have no problems with them...wish they ALL passed myself.

 

The only thing that seemed to raise a fuss was the Jeans issue...which wasn't even a voting item...

 

And now, after the fact, folks are complaining. Guess they figured that the items wouldn't pass so there was no need to debate.

 

I don't know why I find this funny...just do.

 

Phantom

+1

 

KK

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You know what's funny?

 

These Voting items had zero issue here on the Wire before the vote (with the exception of the trigger item)...I figured that they would all pass since folks seemed to have no problems with them...wish they ALL passed myself.

 

The only thing that seemed to raise a fuss was the Jeans issue...which wasn't even a voting item...

 

And now, after the fact, folks are complaining. Guess they figured that the items wouldn't pass so there was no need to debate.

 

I don't know why I find this funny...just do.

 

Phantom

+2

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I don't understand...you mean you'll move down range with a long gun pointed at ya if the lever is open?

 

Sorry...don't get it.

 

Phantom

 

If your asking in regards to one of our CAS matches...the stages are always written to where the long guns are to be disgarded in a downward angled barrel or on a prop that is angled away from the shooter.

 

If your talking about the host club's shooting line then Yes. We ALL walk in front of firearms with the levers, bolts, slides etc. open every time the range is called cold and we are checking targets.

 

In both cases the rules call for no-one touching any firearm until the person's downrange are clear.

 

 

You know what's funny?

 

These Voting items had zero issue here on the Wire before the vote (with the exception of the trigger item)...I figured that they would all pass since folks seemed to have no problems with them...wish they ALL passed myself.

 

The only thing that seemed to raise a fuss was the Jeans issue...which wasn't even a voting item...

 

And now, after the fact, folks are complaining. Guess they figured that the items wouldn't pass so there was no need to debate.

 

I don't know why I find this funny...just do.

 

I just got back from a 3 month hiatius (I went back to school) and didn't learn of the agenda items until the week before the convention. My club doesn't agree with the change and I agree YMMV and that's fine. I'll continue to open my lever and place my rifle down like I usually do. At the clubs that allow the new rule change, with a shooter I know likes to throw down their rifle, I guess they'll have to get someone else to run the timer because i'm not coming out of my comfort zone and don't want any mistakes, either mine or theres, to cause any issues.

 

JEL

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If your asking in regards to one of our CAS matches...the stages are always written to where the long guns are to be disgarded in a downward angled barrel or on a prop that is angled away from the shooter.

 

If your talking about the host club's shooting line then Yes. We ALL walk in front of firearms with the levers, bolts, slides etc. open every time the range is called cold and we are checking targets.

 

In both cases the rules call for no-one touching any firearm until the person's downrange are clear.

 

 

 

I just got back from a 3 month hiatius (I went back to school) and didn't learn of the agenda items until the week before the convention. My club doesn't agree with the change and I agree YMMV and that's fine. I'll continue to open my lever and place my rifle down like I usually do. At the clubs that allow the new rule change, with a shooter I know likes to throw down their rifle, I guess they'll have to get someone else to run the timer because i'm not coming out of my comfort zone and don't want any mistakes, either mine or theres, to cause any issues.

 

JEL

I respect you position...not trying to change it nor poo-poo it. What do you do right now if the lever closes and the shooter just moves on?

 

The lever still has to be opened at some point prior to it being placed, put, thrown (which is never a good thing IMHO), so in a practical sense, I see no change other then the "Call".

 

Phantom

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If your asking in regards to one of our CAS matches...the stages are always written to where the long guns are to be disgarded in a downward angled barrel or on a prop that is angled away from the shooter.

 

If your talking about the host club's shooting line then Yes. We ALL walk in front of firearms with the levers, bolts, slides etc. open every time the range is called cold and we are checking targets.

 

In both cases the rules call for no-one touching any firearm until the person's downrange are clear.

 

 

 

I just got back from a 3 month hiatius (I went back to school) and didn't learn of the agenda items until the week before the convention. My club doesn't agree with the change and I agree YMMV and that's fine. I'll continue to open my lever and place my rifle down like I usually do. At the clubs that allow the new rule change, with a shooter I know likes to throw down their rifle, I guess they'll have to get someone else to run the timer because i'm not coming out of my comfort zone and don't want any mistakes, either mine or theres, to cause any issues.

 

JEL

Let me understand something, are saying that you believe that people will just throw there rifle or shotgun down without even trying to open them, is that your fear?

 

KK

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You know what's funny?

 

These Voting items had zero issue here on the Wire before the vote (with the exception of the trigger item)...I figured that they would all pass since folks seemed to have no problems with them...wish they ALL passed myself.

 

The only thing that seemed to raise a fuss was the Jeans issue...which wasn't even a voting item...

 

And now, after the fact, folks are complaining. Guess they figured that the items wouldn't pass so there was no need to debate.

 

I don't know why I find this funny...just do.

 

Phantom

I'm not complaining I just think it's a crazy ,The only reason I brought up disagreement with rule change #1 was that #2 did not pass which has another safety rule already covering it, the fact you could not addd some wording like you can't pick up rds up off the ground to get #2 to pass is crazy,.

 

What I think is funny is how some folks must never shoot anything but cowboy and have never been to a gunrange where when folks walk in front of dozens of guns pointed downrange with actions open after a cold range is called.

 

I think post # 137 does say it best both the quote & the response.LOL

 

AO

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