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Anvil Al #59168

TG VOTE

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I agree totally dude with Arcadia!!

 

put springs back in yur guns if they close that easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

argggg

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All that stuff is well and good, but do you get a MDQ is you wear blue jeans or Wranglers? There's been a lot more discussion on that topic than any of the others.

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If yer knocking your sights off, have you considered that maybe yer doin' something wrong??

 

...

 

:wacko:

 

Yep, I'm staging guns and returning them to poorly designed vertical racks in a rather timely manner. :huh:

However, have not had to deal with many in the last 5-6 years. Vertical staging has just about gone away like Elvis, gone but not forgotten.

 

See you at WR,

 

Assassin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

r

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

The trigger straightening thing was totally un-needed! A perfectly good gun that has been as is visually for all of these years is hurting my finger...

 

The real solution is to have a designated shooter handle the things that cause discomfort to the contestant. "Cowboy Up"!! Comes to mind. I may take up bowling... oh, I forgot them holes in the ball hurt my thumb. Maybe they would allow me to use a large rubber prosthetic hand while sipping suds and establishing an average :)

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:o

The trigger straightening thing was totally un-needed! A perfectly good gun that has been as is visually for all of these years is hurting my finger...

 

The real solution is to have a designated shooter handle the things that cause discomfort to the contestant. "Cowboy Up"!! Comes to mind. I may take up bowling... oh, I forgot them holes in the ball hurt my thumb. Maybe they would allow me to use a large rubber prosthetic hand while sipping suds and establishing an average :)

 

 

Nobody said you had to put it in yours. :huh:

 

I had the holes in my bowling ball drilled to fit ME.

Going to have the trigger to fit ME also. :o

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Yep, I'm staging guns and returning them to poorly designed vertical racks in a rather timely manner. :huh:

However, have not had to deal with many in the last 5-6 years. Vertical staging has just about gone away like Elvis, gone but not forgotten.

 

See you at WR,

 

Assassin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

r

We still see lots of vertical staging in AZ. And I saw lots of it in the NW in OR and WA.

 

I have seen several occasions where a shooter stages his gun and is already in the process of moving on to the next shooting position before ANYONE realized his gun had closed.

 

I accept it's the shooters responsibility, but at what point does a shooter have to give up trying to be competitive for the sake of making sure an EMPTY gun also is open?

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Penalties may not prevent a accident what I described in Post #56 is very possible situation and dont like the idea of being downrange in that situation, but I love downrange movement and it seems alot of shooters dont like vertical staging.

 

#2 would of been simple to word differently to say you cant retrieve ammo from ground

 

I probaly would not of posted at all if #2 would of passed but because to me #2 is not a true safety issue and #1 is and it passed doesn't even make common sense.

 

 

Regards AO

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

 

 

Nobody said you had to put it in yours. :huh:

 

I had the holes in my bowling ball drilled to fit ME.

Going to have the trigger to fit ME also. :o

I won't...

 

I used to have a ball drilled to fit me too. It' always been like that in bowling. Folks have different diameter fingers! They even have lighter balls for the kids. I now shoot them out of a cannon when we find them at yard sales.

 

Now as far as "cowboy" guns go they pretty much came in some configuration that remained unchanged for 130 years or so. Then came the technique of late that makes the finger vulnerable and we gotta change the gun instead of saying; use at your own risk. What happened to that little lever deal what ya flip up on a cap gun to hit the trigger? That should be the next progression for sure!

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I won't...

 

I used to have a ball drilled to fit me too. It' always been like that in bowling. Folks have different diameter fingers! They even have lighter balls for the kids. I now shoot them out of a cannon when we find them at yard sales.

 

Now as far as "cowboy" guns go they pretty much came in some configuration that remained unchanged for 130 years or so. Then came the technique of late that makes the finger vulnerable and we gotta change the gun instead of saying; use at your own risk. What happened to that little lever deal what ya flip up on a cap gun to hit the trigger? That should be the next progression for sure!

The NRA had a display of Hollywood guns, including Chuck Connor's rifle from The Rifleman. Not only was the screw in the trigger guard clearly visible, they had the original drawings with dimensions that the armorer used to modify the gun. I saw several people taking pictures and making notes. ;)

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

The NRA had a display of Hollywood guns, including Chuck Connor's rifle from The Rifleman. Not only was the screw in the trigger guard clearly visible, they had the original drawings with dimensions that the armorer used to modify the gun. I saw several people taking pictures and making notes. ;)

There ya go... I still like the flip up deal better than a screw. It would make a better cottage industry too

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I won't...

 

I used to have a ball drilled to fit me too. It' always been like that in bowling. Folks have different diameter fingers! They even have lighter balls for the kids. I now shoot them out of a cannon when we find them at yard sales.

 

Now as far as "cowboy" guns go they pretty much came in some configuration that remained unchanged for 130 years or so. Then came the technique of late that makes the finger vulnerable and we gotta change the gun instead of saying; use at your own risk. What happened to that little lever deal what ya flip up on a cap gun to hit the trigger? That should be the next progression for sure!

 

 

You really don't think folks did mods on there guns back then??? Really??

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

 

 

You really don't think folks did mods on there guns back then??? Really??

Yep ya lived in Montana and had one gun so ya decided to screw it up and there were no replacement parts for 6 months... I do believe that 3 people probably modified their lever guns in some way back then. I have a few old Winchesters and my buddy has a fairly extensive collection too, I have been to Cody and saw a few examples of lever guns and some that were factory special order modifications. I have one that is an old Rez gun that hangs by the back door and it's totally ugly but honest. The triggers are all the same... Not straightened, ground, re-shaped, or nuthin.

 

Folks doing mods on the guns is a kinda weak argument but could be accepted if say 100 or so original guns that had been exactly modified in the same method could be produced...

 

Now I was in favor of the Bisley hammer thing cuz the cat was out of the bag with the Monpotato hammer being allowed, and not because I believe that back in the day every other cowpoke had a Bisley.

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Howdy; The modifications that are happening are so far past what anyone could dream of at the start of this game!

It may come to one day needing a " box stock " category to save the events.

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Howdy; The modifications that are happening are so far past what anyone could dream of at the start of this game!

It may come to one day needing a " box stock " category to save the events.

Box stock comes up frequently. What is box stock? Does it include an action job? Etc., etc., etc. Such a category is impossible to govern.

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Box stock comes up frequently. What is box stock? Does it include an action job? Etc., etc., etc. Such a category is impossible to govern.

And box stock is not the same from mfg to mfg. the thrown on the new Winchester is different then the Uberti which is different than the Beretta which is different than an original 73.

 

Really. I am not making this up.

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Howdy; The modifications that are happening are so far past what anyone could dream of at the start of this game!

It may come to one day needing a " box stock " category to save the events.

 

 

It's come up for years. Some on here use to bring it up all the time.

 

But none of them have ever been able to even get it going on a local level.

It has fallen by the way side ever time they bring it up and are challenged to

even get it done at there local club.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, December 10, 2013 - Personal atttack.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, December 10, 2013 - Personal atttack.

The trigger straightening thing was totally un-needed! A perfectly good gun that has been as is visually for all of these years is hurting my finger...

 

The real solution is to have a designated shooter handle the things that cause discomfort to the contestant. "Cowboy Up"!! Comes to mind. I may take up bowling... oh, I forgot them holes in the ball hurt my thumb. Maybe they would allow me to use a large rubber prosthetic hand while sipping suds and establishing an average :)

 

Ya know, There is nothing preventing you from using box stock guns. Modifying a weapon to prevent injury while using it would seem to me to be a good thing. Your whining about people following the rules of the competition is really kind of childish. Your "cowboy up" comment even more so. Please take up bowling, maybe we wouldn't have to listen to you whine so often.

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It is pretty easy to define box stock, but it takes a rule book the size of the NASCAR rule book. There would have to be exact specs and drawings on every single part of every approved gun. Then winners guns and other shooters guns randomly would be torn down after the match to see if they were really stock. Now who would put up with that kind of a situation? The box stock lobby fails a lot of other tests. How do you compare a rifle coming from a mfg that has all the after market mods we currently do to the gun already installed in the box from the mfg compared to another comany's rifle equal inside to how it was built in 1890? They are both box stock.

 

I actually believe we have a very workable set of gun covenants which were approved by a very large vote of the clubs through their TGs. This set of standards for guns has been at least as stable as all our sports rules and probably more stable. There is a good process to approve or disapprove a new covenant for a gun mod which seems to be working.

 

Anyone paying attention, knew immediately when the Ruger Montado was approved for SASS matches, all lowered hammers would have to be shortly approved so Italian made guns and Colts could compete if for no other reason. Well shortly took about 5 years. Too bad it did not happen sooner.

 

Folks somehow believe gun mods are something new to this sport. From what I have been told about the history of the sport, even before SASS started, CAS shooters were already modifying guns with lighter springs, smoothed parts, modified sights, looser chambers, modern butt pads, etc. Remember a lot of the early shooters came to the sport from fast draw and gun modifications there were quite common.

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Yep ya lived in Montana and had one gun so ya decided to screw it up and there were no replacement parts for 6 months... I do believe that 3 people probably modified their lever guns in some way back then. I have a few old Winchesters and my buddy has a fairly extensive collection too, I have been to Cody and saw a few examples of lever guns and some that were factory special order modifications. I have one that is an old Rez gun that hangs by the back door and it's totally ugly but honest. The triggers are all the same... Not straightened, ground, re-shaped, or nuthin.

 

Folks doing mods on the guns is a kinda weak argument but could be accepted if say 100 or so original guns that had been exactly modified in the same method could be produced...

 

Now I was in favor of the Bisley hammer thing cuz the cat was out of the bag with the Monpotato hammer being allowed, and not because I believe that back in the day every other cowpoke had a Bisley.

 

You are right. Because you have not seen it. It did not happen.

And the only thing a gunsmith back in those days did was factory repairs only.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433
Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, December 10, 2013 - Response to insult.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, December 10, 2013 - Response to insult.

 

Ya know, There is nothing preventing you from using box stock guns. Modifying a weapon to prevent injury while using it would seem to me to be a good thing. Your whining about people following the rules of the competition is really kind of childish. Your "cowboy up" comment even more so. Please take up bowling, maybe we wouldn't have to listen to you whine so often.

Let's see... Cowboy Shooting, Cowboy Guns, Cowboy Clothes, Cowboy up! How about Cowboy Up Cupcake? Shooting with bonesz or bowling hmmm... Move over Earl Anthony!!

 

Please find where I advocate a box stock category before going off half cocked ;)

 

Then show all of the injuries to all of these fingers...

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

 

You are right. Because you have not seen it. It did not happen.

And the only thing a gunsmith back in those days did was factory repairs only.

C'mon Al,

 

That's not what I said at all. Like I said if someone can show that it was prevalent back in the day then good on ya! I have the Madis Winchester book and don't see too many examples there. There is one on page 173 that looks like the trigger is slightly farther forward than the others so maybe one is different...

 

If it has passed it is water under the bridge.

 

Good Shooting!!

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...and NO, it's NOT 4 SALE!

(this one rounds out the requisite "3" needed for CAS competition...one in the cart, one in the truck & one in the shop)

 

:P

...now that's funny! ...and sad, but true!

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Sorry.

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I can hardly believe that #2 didn't pass??? Oh well:(

 

 

Vertically staging is easy and simple. Also, it's the same for everyone. Put together quality V racks and start doing it for your down range stages...no big deal!

 

All this talk of stock v.s. not, triggers? Yea it's a problem. But all the other stuff we do to guns is fine?:) Yawn fest already (boring).

 

Please excuse me, I need to go practice how carless and fast, I can start throwing down my long guns:)

 

Ringer

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Good job with the votes TG's - whether one likes 'em or not it is what it is.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I can hardly believe that #2 didn't pass??? Oh well:(

 

 

Vertically staging is easy and simple. Also, it's the same for everyone. Put together quality V racks and start doing it for your down range stages...no big deal!

 

All this talk of stock v.s. not, triggers? Yea it's a problem. But all the other stuff we do to guns is fine? :) Yawn fest already (boring).

 

Please excuse me, I need to go practice how carless and fast, I can start throwing down my long guns:)

 

Ringer

Vertical staging is the same for everyone. I think not. Double shooters are at a disadvantage when dealing with V racks. The new rule will help in placing the SXS back in the V rack. I've seen and made about every kind of rack and vertical racks are not the way to go. We have alot of down range movement and have no problems staging guns on tables. As for a safety issue with shooters setting guns down more forcefully than before only time will tell. This is all speculation and when putting together a match one must think about the potential problems that may occur when dealing with new rules. Seen alot of change over the years, not always good.

 

Assassin

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I agree with the TG vote. #2 would be hard to define. If you say not on the ground, what about the one rolling off the edge of the table that the shooter is diving for while trying to control the muzzle? Too many situation to justify the change, IMO. Down range with a lever closed is covered my muzzle direction, confinement. A cocked gun with a round in the chamber won't go off unless somebody touches it. pointed in a safe direction or confined should cover all down range movement. As for rough handling, if you abuse your guns enough, they'll probably fail you when you need them.

 

CR

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Our TG voting system is certainly not perfect, but compared to our national elections it shines. I see a couple of areas our TG system can be improved with little effort. A lot of clubs start shutting down for the winter about their Sept match. Getting the final agenda for voting by early Sept would help a lot. I think this year most TGs got the proposed rule changes about 1 Oct, which for sure is better than many years. Getting it out a month earlier would give many clubs more time to discuss it and give their TGs direction. Second, many clubs give their TGs firm direction on how to vote on each rule change no matter how it is modified in the Convention. This is not wise. Clubs should trust their TGs to modify a club's vote if substantial changes are made that would allow the change to be accepted by the club. One big issue is that many clubs vote by proxy and miss all the discussion and changes to the wording. This could improve if they were to give their proxy vote to another TG attending the Convention with permission to change their club's vote. Many send their proxy directly to SASS and this does not allow a change to the vote. Maybe an electronic vote after the Convention could solve this issue. Right now we get about 100 TGs present with over 600 SASS clubs, and likely less than half the clubs voting so changes to the rules are getting made by many clubs not being represented.

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Bottom line: if the gun is clear it's a NO CALL. That took about what...25 years? And I'm sure that there was plenty of dissent. Some things should change very slowly. But, still.... what do you suppose it will take to get a single rule book? Seriously? Is it money? Committee? Lack of volunteers or lack of perceived need?

 

I look at the way IDPA did their all new completely comprehensive rule book. Far and away more detailed and complex, but it's well- thought, well- written; vetted by multiple layers along with multiple points of review and input by the shooters.

 

I suppose that's another thread... and another year... or two... or 20.

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#1 So now we have sanctioned putting down a cocked loaded gun. Hope the lawyers never get to use this.

 

#2 " Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control." See #1.

 

#3 "This modification sets the trigger closer to the lever so it is less likley to wound the shooter's trigger finger." ?, when the gap between the trigger and the lever is less than your finger is wide/thick there is a pinch point.

We forget that this stems from a commerical offering of a part that had not been thru the already in place procedure. The new Cowboy way - It's better to ask forgiveness that permission.

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If you think your interpretation of #1 is correct, you need to do a little more research. And, I have no idea what you mean by #2. The retrieving dropped round proposal was not passed.

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#1 So now we have sanctioned putting down a cocked loaded gun. Hope the lawyers never get to use this.

NOT SO...that will still get you a SDQ...no lawyers required.

Stand by for a really BASIC explanation of #1 later today.

 

#2 " Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control." See #1.

Moot point...item FAILED to pass due to, IMO, an inability (or refusal) to understand the definition of "SAFELY".

 

#3 "This modification sets the trigger closer to the lever so it is less likley to wound the shooter's trigger finger." ?, when the gap between the trigger and the lever is less than your finger is wide/thick there is a pinch point.

We forget that this stems from a commerical offering of a part that had not been thru the already in place procedure. The new Cowboy way - It's better to ask forgiveness that permission.

This "stemmed from" a misunderstanding of the "reprofiling" allowance in the SHB "Firearms Covenants". The agenda item was to resolve that issue.

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

Actually, the Bisley hammer is not lower. It has a different profile, but the cocking surface is no lower than a SBH hammer. The Bisley hammer sure does look neat in a birds head frame. I already put some in mine. I'm sure it will make me much faster.

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

 

 

Everyone had a chance to get there TG to vote.

 

Did yours???

How did your club want it to go?

Do you even know how your club voted?

Or if your club voted??

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