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Anvil Al #59168

TG VOTE

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#1. A penalty after the fact, particulary on a proceedure that had been in place forever, means nothing.

#2. Responce made to comments already made.

#3. See Hipshots pinned comments.

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

My old model vaqueros have their original hammers. My new model vaqueros had theirs changed to old model hammers. But I'm not a "gamer".

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Wording on question THAT PASSED BY 80%

1] If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, should there be a "no call" if in fact the firearm is empty, or a penalty if a spent case or live round is ejected? If the gun closes the shooter will be the ONLY one to tough the gun until it is shown clear or otherwise at the end of the stage

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My NMV still have the factory hammers on them.

 

And isn't the bisley hammer narrower than the SBH hammer?

Yes. Montado, SBH in the center. Bisley on the right.

 

topview.jpg

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Hope all those that are now complaining. Did so to there TG BEFORE the vote.

And talked to there other club members about it. So there TG would know how

they wanted them to vote.

 

And hope they made sure that there clubs TG got there vote in.

As MANY clubs did not even send a vote.

 

If not.

 

Then they have NO room at all to say anything now. NONE.

 

As only 242 TG's managed to attend or send a vote.

And that is out somewhere around 650 clubs.

So roughly around 400 clubs did not bother.

 

Mine did.

 

If you are complaining. Are you sure you even bother do send a vote??

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

Ah yes, gotta blame those evil "Gamers"...such an easy out for many of you.

 

Fact is that the lower profile hammers help the older folks a lot...but it's just easier for you to simply say it's the "Gamers"...and THEY are ruining the game.

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

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Mr. Pettifogger,

If there is a live round still it the tube, for whatever reason, when the shooter stops shooting, puts down the gun and closes the lever, again for whatever reason, there is now a live round under a cocked hammer. Would you please explain what type of "research" you would propose to make that not so.

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Mr. Pettifogger,

If there is a live round still it the tube, for whatever reason, when the shooter stops shooting, puts down the gun and closes the lever, again for whatever reason, there is now a live round under a cocked hammer. Would you please explain what type of "research" you would propose to make that not so.

Nothing has changed here...I know you didn't direct your question to me...but I don't get it.

 

Tell me how the new rule affects the situation that you've described?

 

Phantom

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Mr. Pettifogger,

If there is a live round still it the tube, for whatever reason, when the shooter stops shooting, puts down the gun and closes the lever, again for whatever reason, there is now a live round under a cocked hammer. Would you please explain what type of "research" you would propose to make that not so.

Even before this new rule if a shooter had a live round in the gun and set it down and the lever closed and chambered the round he would get a stage DQ. He gets the same result under the new rule. The only difference is that when a shooter sets down a rifle and the lever accidentally closes and there is NOTHING in the chamber there is no penalty.

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Nothing has changed here...I know you didn't direct your question to me...but I don't get it.

 

Tell me how the new rule affects the situation that you've described?

 

Phantom

Here's my concern. I've witnessed more than once a rifle set down that had a round on the carrier. Shooter lost track and so did the RO and spotters. The rifle action was of course open.

 

The same thing could happen now with the additional possiblity of the action being closed when the rifle is restaged and it would now be loaded and cocked.

 

Everyone can say what they want about counting rounds and keeping up with the shooter all they want. I have shoot with some of the fastest shooters in the game. I shoot with some of them on a regular basis. It can and does happen!

 

I don't want to be the RO that calls a guy back during an incredible run and be wrong. I also don't want to be the guy that doesn't call the shooter back and have to go down range with a hot rifle behind me because I was wrong.

 

Stan who thought the action open rule was good

 

Stan

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Here's my concern. I've witnessed more than once a rifle set down that had a round on the carrier. Shooter lost track and so did the RO and spotters. The rifle action was of course open.

 

The same thing could happen now with the additional possiblity of the action being closed when the rifle is restaged and it would now be loaded and cocked.

 

Everyone can say what they want about counting rounds and keeping up with the shooter all they want. I have shoot with some of the fastest shooters in the game. I shoot with some of them on a regular basis. It can and does happen!

 

I don't want to be the RO that calls a guy back during an incredible run and be wrong. I also don't want to be the guy that doesn't call the shooter back and have to go down range with a hot rifle behind me because I was wrong.

 

Stan who thought the action open rule was good

 

Stan

How did you club vote?

 

KK

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The fact that you get a penalty is not material. The fact is that now you can put a hot gun down. One that sombody, if anybody on the posse at all is paying attention , probally knows is hot. The original was to clear the gun before moving on. It's you guys that need to explain to me why this is now ok.

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The fact that you get a penalty is not material. The fact is that now you can put a hot gun down. One that sombody, if anybody on the posse at all is paying attention , probally knows is hot. The original was to clear the gun before moving on. It's you guys that need to explain to me why this is now ok.

It's ok because it was voted on and passed. Also I'm sure people will make an effort to open and clear their rifle. Look guys the bottom line it will be a new rule your club can always stick with old one if you so choose, if this bothered you why didn't you make an effort to make your point, this rule passed by 80% of the TG's that showed up or bothered to give a proxy, your complaining or demanding explaination serves no purpose what so ever other than to stir the pot

 

KK

 

PS Penalties are material because last time I checked nobody wants them.

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How did you club vote?

 

KK

What difference does that make? I'm stating my opinion. PERSONALLY I think this was brought about by a few folks wanting to split hairs over what's "open" and "closed" and instead of dealing with them directly we now have a new rule that I feel reduces the safety of our game.

 

I have never had anyone argue a call about their lever being closed. Have you?

 

Stan

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The fact that you get a penalty is not material. The fact is that now you can put a hot gun down. One that sombody, if anybody on the posse at all is paying attention , probally knows is hot. The original was to clear the gun before moving on. It's you guys that need to explain to me why this is now ok.

 

You could put a "hot" gun down before...and get the same SDQ penalty.

The requirement to clear the action of ANY ammo to avoid a penalty remains as well.

The difference is that, if the previously OPENED action happens to somehow CLOSE upon restaging with no rounds (live or spent) remaining, there will be no MSV penalty for the action being in that condition.

 

If one insists on MISunderstanding what was passed, no amount of restating the rule will convince them otherwise...IMO.

 

 

I have never had anyone argue a call about their lever being closed. Have you?

 

 

YES...had a shooter at a STATE match try to invoke the "shag carpet rule" ... it went all the way from the PM to the RM & MD; then to a 3-person review panel.

The shooter LOST the appeal.

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What difference does that make? I'm stating my opinion. PERSONALLY I think this was brought about by a few folks wanting to split hairs over what's "open" and "closed" and instead of dealing with them directly we now have a new rule that I feel reduces the safety of our game.

 

I have never had anyone argue a call about their lever being closed. Have you?

 

Stan

No I haven't, but again if you were personally against this, why didn't you make a point on the wire, maybe you might have changed a few minds, but to state your opinion now serves what purpose?

 

KK

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KK,

You assume to know too much. Did I vote no when asked. YES. Did I explain my position? Certainly.

 

So it didn't go my way. That doesn't mean I can no longer oppose it. If that were the case we would all be liberals now.

 

It also doesn't mean it can't or won't be changed in the future.

 

Stan

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KK,

You assume to know too much. Did I vote no when asked. YES. Did I explain my position? Certainly.

 

So it didn't go my way. That doesn't mean I can no longer oppose it. If that were the case we would all be liberals now.

 

It also doesn't mean it can't or won't be changed in the future.

 

Stan

I never assumed anything? So it didn't go your way and now your making sure everybody knows your un-happy instead of giving it a chance and see if it has a benefit. I guess you can't make everybody happy but this vote made 80% of the represented happy.

 

KK

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The fact that you get a penalty is not material. The fact is that now you can put a hot gun down. One that sombody, if anybody on the posse at all is paying attention , probally knows is hot. The original was to clear the gun before moving on. It's you guys that need to explain to me why this is now ok.

Since it's a DQ, if the TO/RO knows it is or may be a live round in the gun, nothing changes. What happened prior to this was that the action stopped and the DQ given. Now, the TO/RO can stop it on the spot, and if they are wrong, the shooter gets a re-shoot. Alternatively, the stage may also continue if the TO/RO allows it. At the end, the gun is opened, as before, only now, if it's empty, the score stands. What are you walking in front of ANY gun for, empty or potentially otherwise? If safe stging is not provided, it's an unsafe stage.

 

CR

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I never assumed anything? So it didn't go your way and now your making sure everybody knows your un-happy instead of giving it a chance and see if it has a benefit. I guess you can't make everybody but this vote made 80% of the represented happy.

 

KK

Not sure what giving it a chance has to do with my pointing out a safety issue related to the new rule.

 

Explain to me how this doesn't reduce safety.

 

As a TO are you going to be comfortable with downrange movement and a cocked action closed firearm behind you.

 

What if its a 9 round stage and the shooter loads 10. Everyone counts the rounds and all ASSUME the rifle is clear. It happens.....do you want to be that TO?

 

But stan no one is supposed to touch that rifle except the shooter. Yep and of course everything always goes as planned.

 

Just sayin.....if you're a TO these are new things to consider.

 

Stan

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True, but a properly breifed posse and a properly written stage for down range movement reduces the possiblies you speak of. Also if for some reason that their is a 10th round in the rifle and lever closed, and I'm going downrange as a TO, if the rifle is position so it not able to hurt someone I wouldn't have a problem at all.

 

KK

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Since it's a DQ, if the TO/RO knows it is or may be a live round in the gun, nothing changes. What happened prior to this was that the action stopped and the DQ given. Now, the TO/RO can stop it on the spot, and if they are wrong, the shooter gets a re-shoot. Alternatively, the stage may also continue if the TO/RO allows it. At the end, the gun is opened, as before, only now, if it's empty, the score stands. What are you walking in front of ANY gun for, empty or potentially otherwise? If safe staging is not provided, it's an unsafe stage.

 

CR

 

Good point..

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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The fact that #1 passed and #2 failed leaves me a bit befuddled. My personal opinion is #1 was an unnecessary change, and not for the better. And yes my club's TG was present.

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The old rule was because it is a more safe condition to leave the gun in than others, and we chose to have a penalty to help make this happen. Now we are saying just throw it down and we will sort it out later. It has nothing to do with penalties, it's is this the condition we are willing to leave the gun. I too am waiting for an explanation as to how this does not reduce safety.

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What are you walking in front of ANY gun for, empty or potentially otherwise? If safe stging is not provided, it's an unsafe stage.

 

CR

 

You said it before I could and more simply than I would.

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The problem is that after picking up long guns for years some will just do it to help move the stage along out of habit. Before a closed action had all involved calling back shooter to open. That is over. Now we have to hope that the gun is empty and no one touches it. Lots to hope for when an open action made those points moot. Which would you rather stand in front of, a shotgun with an open action and spent hull in it or a closed and cocked rifle. I don't want to stand in front of any gun but I'll take the sg.

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Since it's a DQ, if the TO/RO knows it is or may be a live round in the gun, nothing changes. What happened prior to this was that the action stopped and the DQ given. Now, the TO/RO can stop it on the spot, and if they are wrong, the shooter gets a re-shoot. Alternatively, the stage may also continue if the TO/RO allows it. At the end, the gun is opened, as before, only now, if it's empty, the score stands. What are you walking in front of ANY gun for, empty or potentially otherwise? If safe stging is not provided, it's an unsafe stage.

 

CR

 

 

+1

 

If your club has you moving in front of the muzzle. There is bigger problems than this rule.

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The old rule was because it is a more safe condition to leave the gun in than others, and we chose to have a penalty to help make this happen. Now we are saying just throw it down and we will sort it out later. It has nothing to do with penalties, it's is this the condition we are willing to leave the gun. I too am waiting for an explanation as to how this does not reduce safety.

You won't get it . Welcome to the dance . Ask a question and get a question or get an answer to a different question .

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

That's funny and still true in my case because I installed standard NV hammers in my SASS Vaquero's because they work better for me using squaw grip. Guess I'm a gamer and proud to admit that I do what I can do within the rules to be as good as I can be. If I were use my SASS NV's for duelist or gunfighter I'd probably put the OEM Montado hammers back in......gotta live up to my competitive status as a self proclaimed gamer if for nothing else. :lol:

 

However, if & when I do decide to try single handed grip, I'll most likely do so with C&B guns. If that's not SOG then I don't know what is. After all, it's only a few nanoseconds. ;)

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Well, looks like the "Gamers" won out again!! I don't think there is a Ruger Vaquero left in the sport that still has it's original hammer. The Super BlackHawk hammers that have replaced them are an EXTERNAL modification according to the original rules, but the gamers had to have that little lower and wider hammer, now they want the even lower Bisley hammer to gain that nanosecond edge. This is yet another EXTERNAL modification. The Vaqueros' with the bisley hammers will be some weirdo looking pieces. Few seem to exhibit the "Spirit of the game" anymore. It's all about winning. IMHO

Al

You must not get out much...... :lol:

My wife's and mine, are unchanged.

Plenty are OEM stock here, from what I see.

I shoot dualist, and prefer the stock hammer profile.

LG

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Find it funny that we can trick out guns to the max - short stroke, straighten triggers, weaken springs, slix shot nipples, shoot 400 FPS bullets, make space age comfortable boots legal in classic cowboy but we rail against belt loops, wranglers, pointy toed boots and basic rodeo wear as not cowboy enough. Seems to me we should probably widen out tent a bit. Having been there I remember Gene Autry, Tom Mix, Wallace Berry etc., for the young folks Rodeo is what they know of the west and Cowboys.

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