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Anvil Al #59168

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Johnny, I answered a question for you yet you have not answered the one I posed to you. Again with 80% voting for it, it's obvious that folks wanted a change. What would you have proposed? Feel free to respond as well Arcadia Outlaw.

I would not of proposed rule change #1, did not feel there was a problem there. Around here I never heard anybody ever say that, hey that lever rule needs to be changed.

 

I'm glad that 3 & 4 passed, did not effect me personally though.

 

What bugs me is # 2 did not pass as it is not properly enforced anyway that I have seen most of the time.

 

I just pointed out in my original post some safety concerns, I did not believe #1 would pass, but I can live with it.

 

I think this rule is going to have it's own set of problems. I asked BJZack if it was improper coaching to tell shooter "lever" if lever closed he said no it's still proper coaching( he did say if proper amount of rds fired he rather RO say nothing), well I know whats going to happen some shooter is going to get mad at RO when called back or distracted by RO saying lever when the rifle is checked & clear, they're going to want a reshoot or they are to be mad at RO or both.So we will see.

 

 

see ya at the range AO

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I'm curious where the lever deal originated from, I hadn't heard any complaints in the areas I shoot... which is pretty vast..... well mostly east of the missasip anyway...

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#1 IMO - simply allows us to do away with the "How open is open?" arguments that we have had for years.

NO ONE is going to throw their guns down any harder now than they did before.

All this change does is FORCE some continuity between TO's posse to posse.

If "I" as the shooter know I cleared the long gun - I no longer have to get called back because my action is not open enough for that specific TO's taste.

I am a little bit excited as this does open up (some, limited and sane) staging options that we have moved away from because of actions closing.

 

#2 is a non issue.

I agree we already have rules in place that cover all the "negatives" associated with retrieving dropped shells. And maintaining this rule is simply duplication of other existing rules.

But honestly, who does it affect?

Experienced shooters already know it is far faster to pull from a known and practiced location i.e. your shotgun belt than attempt to grab a dropped shell from a table, shelf or the floor.

So the only folks (generally) attempting to go after those shells are newbies - folks that we should be training correctly anyways.

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I thought it came up as an out of the box solution on coming up with a definition of a closed versus an open lever. That was a 5th hand rumor and you know how trustworthy those are.

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I thought it came up as an out of the box solution on coming up with a definition of a closed versus an open lever. That was a 5th hand rumor and you know how trustworthy those are.

You are correct. The big issue was defining "open" and "closed." With this rule it doesn't make any difference any more.

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thank you, never saw it as a problem... sure won't be now,,,,, maybe.

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I normally don't post in these whining sessions but I had a week moment.

 

It's kinda cut and dry, the new ruling passed so either follow it or don't.

 

Its not gonna do any good to keep hashing out the same thing over and over. It's done so let's move on and all have a merry Christmas .

 

Geez,

 

Slick

Yup...points have been made already too....cyber-complaining ain't gonna change anything anyway...

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL...

 

GG

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...

#2 is a non issue.

I agree we already have rules in place that cover all the "negatives" associated with retrieving dropped shells. And maintaining this rule is simply duplication of other existing rules.

But honestly, who does it affect?

Experienced shooters already know it is far faster to pull from a known and practiced location i.e. your shotgun belt than attempt to grab a dropped shell from a table, shelf or the floor.

So the only folks (generally) attempting to go after those shells are newbies - folks that we should be training correctly anyways.

 

The primary beneficiaries of #2 (had it passed) would be those shooters who will habitually grab for a dropped/ejected round that lands right in front of them on a prop/table. Something I've seen done by newbies and experienced shooters at some time.

It's hard to practice NOT doing something that comes naturally (to most folks).

 

The others who might benefit are those shooters whose main goal is a CLEAN MATCH who might happen to drop a round needed to finish a stage without having enough "back up" ammo immediately available.

Those would also likely be the ONLY ones who might have considered going to ground (wherever that is) to retrieve a round.

 

All this is moot at this point.

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I don't think this is something I will forget to mention during our normal, routine, every match, safety meeting where the safety rules are advised to all of the shooters from notes that are written down on the same clipboard the we use every match for just this purpose. Clubs have unique rules all over the place and this hasn't been an issue with those rules so don't think this will be an issue here.

 

 

 

So how is this different than a "plant and poke" shotgun rule that is strictly enforced at at least one of our regionals? It's not a SASS rule.

 

JEL

Don't go to that one because of that, not interested in shooting any place that doesn't follow all the rules and especially a big shoot.

 

KK

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I personally like the plant and poke rule at clubs for this simple fact.

 

Shooter is moving safely from point A to point B with shotgun in hand as instructed by the stage scenario. Under current rules you can load on the move as long as the action is NOT closed. Shooter loads his/her double and trips over a raised board in the board walk , slips on empty hull or what ever and as they fall or hit the ground the action slames shut and the rounds goes off. Yes they will get the proper penalty but they might also have to live with blowing off someone's leg, foot or possibly head. Now with that fraction of a second saved by loadig on the move is it truly worth "possibly" seriously injuring or killing a fellow shooter or by stander?? Not to meantion the insurance for the range owner. Just another side of trying to keep our sport safer ;)

 

Slick

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+1 Slick

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I personally like the plant and poke rule at clubs for this simple fact.

 

Shooter is moving safely from point A to point B with shotgun in hand as instructed by the stage scenario. Under current rules you can load on the move as long as the action is NOT closed. Shooter loads his/her double and trips over a raised board in the board walk , slips on empty hull or what ever and as they fall or hit the ground the action slames shut and the rounds goes off. Yes they will get the proper penalty but they might also have to live with blowing off someone's leg, foot or possibly head. Now with that fraction of a second saved by loadig on the move is it truly worth "possibly" seriously injuring or killing a fellow shooter or by stander?? Not to meantion the insurance for the range owner. Just another side of trying to keep our sport safer ;)

 

Slick

Slick, I see your point but in all honesty if the boards are a tripping hazard problem then fix them and move on, there are to many shoots that people can pick and choose from and that for me is a critiera that I use when makeing up my mind where I'm going to spend my money, I have nothing personal against the shoot just wish to us all the rules available to me to play the game, thats how I practice so thats how I want to play.

Just like the new rules if a club wishes no to use them so be it, but what if one of the shooters at that club goes to a big shoot. asked to be a PM or TO starting running people thru and starts calling people back for closed levers when he or she shouldn't, the world won't come to an end but it could be a difference of somebody doing well or just getting distracted from a PM/TO that's not up to par.

 

KK

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It may be ok for SxS folks...but it does hurt the 97 shooters.

 

This is a fact...take a look at those that received penalties for loading on the move.

 

There is a little bias towards the SxS shooter there.

 

Phantom

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Take out the word double and replace with shotgun. All fixed now ;)

And the "boardwalk" was simply and example only. Not wanting to start a war , I was simply bringing out a point to think about . I can't believe I had two non restrained moments in a 24hr period :) LOL

 

Merry Christmas to all !!!!

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The best part of our sport is.............

 

You can be a gamer, if you want.

You can be a Clean Shooter, if you want

You can be an Age Based shooter, if you want

You can be a specific catagory shooter, if you want

You just enjoy shooting, if you want

My last years winnings tallied up to a whomping 3.6 million dollars!! ;)

 

Point is......when I was a kid my brother and I would make up games to entertain ourselves. We didn't have Video games and such. SO we had to make up our rules as we went along. We made rules to keep things as fair as we could and we tried our best to abide by them. Sure we cheated evey once in a while (we were kids) but not without getting caught and penalized. Now we enjoy a game called SASS and the rules are there for the same reasons. I take it as a personal challange to see if I can be the best at my game within the scope of the rules. I don't want to win by cheating or lose by being cheated. That's the true gem of our sport, we rely on each others integrity and I am proud to have this game with the best :) kind of folks I have been fortunate to share it with.

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I use to not like the plant and poke your myself.

 

But about 4 years ago. I was moving form one place to the other.

It was a good ways. Thinking I could get my SG loaded on the move.

I tripped (on level flat ground)

Down I went with the SG. It closed. But thank goodness it was pointed down range

and I did not get the shells in.

BUT. I very well could have before that trip.

I changed my mind on the P&P rule after that.

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I use to not like the plant and poke your myself.

 

But about 4 years ago. I was moving form one place to the other.

It was a good ways. Thinking I could get my SG loaded on the move.

I tripped (on level flat ground)

Down I went with the SG. It closed. But thank goodness it was pointed down range

and I did not get the shells in.

BUT. I very well could have before that trip.

I changed my mind on the P&P rule after that.

 

 

The point of the discussion was not the plant and poke rule itself, that was just used as an example.

 

The P&P rule came up as an example when asked how would a club would handle not complying to this new rule regarding lever changes especially at larger matches.

 

JEL

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

 

 

The point of the discussion was not the plant and poke rule itself, that was just used as an example.

 

The P&P rule came up as an example when asked how would a club would handle not complying to this new rule regarding lever changes especially at larger matches.

 

JEL

JEL,

 

I would try going along with the rule change a couple of matches and see what changes. I think you'll find that this isn't really as big a deal as you might think. Guns still have to be open and empty at the peril of receiving a non-eject/non-safe penalty. In the event a gun does close there is now a specific way to deal with it (as in inspect and show clear or apply the penalty).

 

Also I would suggest that because of certain stage design or range layout that this could be specified either okay if the action closes or that the action must be open and empty on a particular stage. The vast majority of shooters are not going to suffer action closing issues repeatedly or on every stage.

 

Good Luck!!

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JEL,

 

I would try going along with the rule change a couple of matches and see what changes. I think you'll find that this isn't really as big a deal as you might think. Guns still have to be open and empty at the peril of receiving a non-eject/non-safe penalty. In the event a gun does close there is now a specific way to deal with it (as in inspect and show clear or apply the penalty).

 

Also I would suggest that because of certain stage design or range layout that this could be specified either okay if the action closes or that the action must be open and empty on a particular stage. The vast majority of shooters are not going to suffer action closing issues repeatedly or on every stage.

 

Good Luck!!

 

 

I think that's just the way I'll handle the new rule change. The "sticky" part is our host range's safety director actually works for me in our day job. He saw me checking the rule change vote and asked about it. I explained and he said "not at our range". He usually watches several stages when we shoot and has even shot a few with us. I am going to just run our match as usual and if we have an issue where this new rule applies I'll make the call per the new guidelines and see what happens. If we have people getting reckless with the disgarding of ther guns then I'll just have to put a stop to that action.

 

I do like the not having to determine what is open, having to call a shooter back, and gaining the ability to vertically stage or restage on a horse prop without penalty if action closes (I shoot a double). So this thread has been warming the rule up to me, ain't the wire great!

 

JEL

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Were there eight pages of discussion on the proposed rules changes before they were voted on?

Just wondering.

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AND, who thought around these parts that it actually had a chance?

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Changing the wording from lever to action must have the double shooters jumping for JOY!

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Changing the wording from lever to action must have the double shooters jumping for JOY!

Not really. I'd have to change years of ingrained technique to take advantage of it. But it does give folks the opportunity to whine about a perceived advantage.

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Not really. I'd have to change years of ingrained technique to take advantage of it. But it does give folks the opportunity to whine about a perceived advantage.

i really like this new advantage I now have with my SXS....heck I always thought the 97 guys had an advantage when they re-staged their SG port down, if hull was there on carrier then it was on table when picked up. This is great..........................

 

In jest of course, but I have had my SXS close when setting on table after travelling with it to another position, although rae, this rule could save me confusion....and I need to be saved of confusion.

 

Thanks for work and travel to do it Duece.

 

See ya soon HC.

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I can not understand some of the criticism of this new rule. The jest of the criticism seems to be what happens when you have down range movement by the shooter/TO/spotters after a rifle has been shot and a rifle is put on a prop with the action closed, hammer back and a live round accidentally put into the chamber (due to overloading or not shooting the right number of rounds). Under the old rules, many times this is not noticed until after the stage is finished (usually because shooter/TO/spotters are moving down range). Other times the shooter is advised to open the action and presumably the round would be discovered when shooter complies. Other times the shooter is notified and is already at a different shooting location and/or already cocked another gun and decides to take the 10 second penalty for a closed rifle. Under the new rules the shooter can/should still be advised if the TO/spotters notice the closed action. The shooter still has the same options to to leave the gun as is or go back and open it. Only thing that is changed is shooter will no longer get the 10 second penalty when the gun is found to be empty.

 

I have never shot a stage with down range movement that the guns are not pointed to a side berm or on a vertical prop before down range movement can start. I have never seen posse members down range after a stage is completed (say to reset targets) before all long guns have been picked up by the shooter-a key job of TO to clear the range. The only time I have seen posse members down range with guns pointing down range (including loaded guns) say to fix a target is during a cease fire and all shooters must be back from all guns not touching them.

 

What am I missing?

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I can not understand some of the criticism of this new rule. The jest of the criticism seems to be what happens when you have down range movement by the shooter/TO/spotters after a rifle has been shot and a rifle is put on a prop with the action closed, hammer back and a live round accidentally put into the chamber (due to overloading or not shooting the right number of rounds). Under the old rules, many times this is not noticed until after the stage is finished (usually because shooter/TO/spotters are moving down range). Other times the shooter is advised to open the action and presumably the round would be discovered when shooter complies. Other times the shooter is notified and is already at a different shooting location and/or already cocked another gun and decides to take the 10 second penalty for a closed rifle. Under the new rules the shooter can/should still be advised if the TO/spotters notice the closed action. The shooter still has the same options to to leave the gun as is or go back and open it. Only thing that is changed is shooter will no longer get the 10 second penalty when the gun is found to be empty.

 

I have never shot a stage with down range movement that the guns are not pointed to a side berm or on a vertical prop before down range movement can start. I have never seen posse members down range after a stage is completed (say to reset targets) before all long guns have been picked up by the shooter-a key job of TO to clear the range. The only time I have seen posse members down range with guns pointing down range (including loaded guns) say to fix a target is during a cease fire and all shooters must be back from all guns not touching them.

 

What am I missing?

Nothing at all, nailed it.

 

KK

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Billy Boots your right us 97 shooters DiD have that advance now the SxS shooters can in joy the same benefits I appreciate u acknowledging that it will be more enjoyable. Looking forward to seeing you at WR.

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Billy Boots your right us 97 shooters DiD have that advance now the SxS shooters can in joy the same benefits I appreciate u acknowledging that it will be more enjoyable. Looking forward to seeing you at WR.

And some will continue playing as they always have. Glad to see you rejoicing so much for the SxS shoooter.

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