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Muleskinner_Pat

Dropped Holster

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Thanks for the link Allie! I needed a good chuckle. As a high school teacher I see kids 'saggin' their pants all the time. In our school it's a violation that gets you sent home, or someone in the administration will zip tie a couple of belt loops together so the pants stay up. Some kids try to sag so low you can actually see the bottom of their underwear! I think it's hilarious. They don't do it in my class because I laugh at em and mock their choice of underwear.

 

I never thought I would see a saggin cowboy! But, I wouldn't make a call against him for it. I would call him for wearing his shotgun belt too high, I'm surprised no one mentioned that.

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:ph34r: Wow-- I get home from work and look what I find-- 2 full pages and mostly my fault, I guess.

 

The original question was as to the safety of dropped/uncontrolled guns-- holstered pistols in this case. I was 4 feet from the muzzle of one of them, as I was picking brass. I was also Posse Marshal and made the call based upon the RO card stating 1-Dropped gun; 2-broke 170 degree line; 3-swept posse.

Nothing on the card said these conditions were trumped by guns being holstered, and as control of the firearms by the shooter had been lost, I considered it a safety issue.

I apparently need the RO refresher course, as the "obviously a 'no call' situation" was not apparent to me, even though I try to familiarize myself with the updated rules each year. As Allie Mo stated, I think we can all learn from this inconsistency in rules. My concern was for safety, and fairness to the shooter in question, as well as any others in his category. At the time, I wasn't aware there were others in the same category.

Believe me, I was trying to find a way out of having to make that call--- but from what the card indicated, there was no other choice. My effort was to maintain the integrity of the rules and system, while being fair to the competitors, regardless of my own feelings.

 

All the above being said, I know and respect everyone involved and would not hesitate to shoot with them again anytime, anywhere. The issue of wearing style/position of gunbelt, while unorthodox, didn't occur to me as anything more than a perception by the shooter as an edge, which may be pushing the envelope but within the rules nonetheless. There are other very accomplished shooters using the same style of whom I'm aware, so to me, the precedent is set. While it's not for me,I've no problem with anyone else exploring that avenue. While granting THAT freedom, I also feel that control of the guns is a responsibility. Buckle failure due to strain required by needed amount of tension was a calculated risk on shooter's part. The shooter in question was in every way a standup cowboy who fully participated in posse chores and was a hard and willing worker, as well as a good and fast shooter.

 

I had just one stage previously had to SDQ one of my closest SASS friends for holstering an empty pistol with a cocked hammer. He didn't know how it happened--- had it brushed against belt/body during movement to holster, or was it simply heat of competition? Regaqrdless, we KNEW pistol was empty (we had just watched him empty it); it was under his control (safely WORN in his holster); and the muzzle hadn't swept anyone. No matter--according to RO card, a SDQ.

 

To the degree my error in judgement and (mis)application of rule system has caused heartburn or distress, I offer my profound apologies to any so affected by my incorrect call.

I extend my thanks to those who constructively have helped me see the error of my ways, especially AM :wub: .

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BB,

 

Don't feel too bad. I made the same incorrect call a couple of years ago at the state match here. A holster fell off a shooter's belt with the gun still in it. I did the same thing you did based on the same information you had. Never saw anything about "doesn't apply if the gun is still in the holster".

 

To me, this is just another illustration that we need ONE complete rule book.

 

BUT let me also say this: I can't think of any other action shooting sport that would think that it's ok to drop a gun, holstered or not, during a stage of fire. Maybe this rule needs to be revisited. What if this had happened while the local TV crew was out there filming? Wouldn't look too good for us, would it?

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BB,

 

If I ever am in your neck of the woods I would like to shake your hand. You made what you thought was the right call at the time, and after further review, realized you made a mis-call, and appologized. Stand up guy in my opinion. I woiuld be honored to have you as my TO, anytime. And I feel it is always better to err on the side of safety than the other way. We must keep our game safe, or simply put, we wont be playing. Thank you for being willing to "take the hard seat" and be a RO.

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BB,

 

If I ever am in your neck of the woods I would like to shake your hand. You made what you thought was the right call at the time, and after further review, realized you made a mis-call, and appologized. Stand up guy in my opinion. I woiuld be honored to have you as my TO, anytime. And I feel it is always better to err on the side of safety than the other way. We must keep our game safe, or simply put, we wont be playing. Thank you for being willing to "take the hard seat" and be a RO.

+1

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BUT let me also say this: I can't think of any other action shooting sport that would think that it's ok to drop a gun, holstered or not, during a stage of fire. Maybe this rule needs to be revisited. What if this had happened while the local TV crew was out there filming? Wouldn't look too good for us, would it?

 

And I feel it is always better to err on the side of safety than the other way. We must keep our game safe, or simply put, we wont be playing.

 

Having participated in SASS for a decade and half I never realized that SASS is the most dangerous shooting sport in America today. I thank the Wire Forum for enlightening me.

 

As I read the posts on this subject I realized that properly holstered guns sliding to the ground violated so many safety rules and exposed other shooters and onlookers to being swept by the muzzle These rules need to be enforced starting in the parking lots. I am agast in horror when I realized how many thousands of shooters and visitors are swept by shooters unloading cased firearms from their vehicles. Folks are walking back and forth are swept by the muzzles while gun cases are being unloaded and worse even sat on the ground more roughly then the shooters holsters sliding down his legs.

 

Since the #1 Rule in firearms safety is Treat Every Gun As If It Is Loaded than it doesn't matter whether the gun is cased. In fact it actually more dangerous since a match official, such as the unloading table person, has not checked it.

 

Clearly the rules committee must act to address this dangerous situation. While D.Q.ing shooters in the parking lots will undoubtly reduce attendance it will prove once and for all how committed it is towards safety.

 

Come to think of it with the ammunition situation the way it is switching to Airsoft guns is way over due.

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Dear Bad Bascomb,

 

You are a good man. I would never, ever suspect you of making a call that was not in good faith.

 

Some of us have read previous threads on this subject. That helped us to know the correct call.

 

Regards and :wub:

 

Allie

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Dear Bad Bascomb,

 

You are a good man. I would never, ever suspect you of making a call that was not in good faith.

 

Some of us have read previous threads on this subject. That helped us to know the correct call.

 

Regards and :wub:

 

Allie

+1

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Fortunately this situation does not come up often. If I remember the background of this issue correctly, it grew out of the discussions on the Cross draw holsters, trying to determine just when the gun was considered holstered, and thus, safe and not subject to the 170 rule. The outcome of that was if the muzzle of the handgun was in leather, the gun was considered safe. Other rules could come into play... i.e. hammer cocked, live round under the hammer.. etc. But if the gun is safe within leather, if follows that it is safe whether it is around the shooter's Waist, Butt, Knees, Ankles or ????? the ground. Since it very rarely comes up, it is not something that everyone is familiar with.

 



We all know that every possible situation can't be covered in the rule books. I hear the call that all rules should be in one place, but that is easier said than done. When obscure situations (like this one) arise, the person making the call is going to have to use various rules and apply them as best they can to the situation. In this case I would have to consider that it is not a dropped gun per the rules and it was maintained within the holster. Admittedly I had the advantage of being in on the original discussions of this exact scenario when I was on the ROC. I strongly support those who make hard decisions. They are the backbone of the game. Monday morning Quarterbacking is always going to yield a different turn of play. We all learn from these experiences.

 


Snakebite




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Well said Snakebite, we do the best we can and we move on. And hopefully we keep learning as we go along so that we will do better the next time.

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About the called made...ya made the best one you could. Yer human!

 

Folks REALLLLLLLLY need to understand that those that make hard "on the spot" decisions usually don't do it to piss ya off. They don't do it to make life hard on ya...they don't LIKE having to make some dicisions...they're just doin the best they can under stressful situations.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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That gunbelt is very low.

What would be your call if it fell off on the next stage, too?

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LET IT GO!!!!!!

 

p.s. 2nd the motion about Bad Bascom really being good (not Goode)!

Know him, have shot with him and will always be happy to do it again!

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About the called made...ya made the best one you could. Yer human!

 

Folks REALLLLLLLLY need to understand that those that make hard "on the spot" decisions usually don't do it to piss ya off. They don't do it to make life hard on ya...they don't LIKE having to make some dicisions...they're just doin the best they can under stressful situations.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

 

+1 - it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it. Thankful for the folks that do....

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I've been reading these posts and I understand how some feel, but post #59 by Beartrap

say's more than most know. I was also involved with posse 13/14 and Beartrap say's it all.

It's a joy to watch him shoot and I must say he's one of the safest cowboys I've had the

pleasure of shooting with. Whether he's shooting or working with the posse. Think about it

a little more His belt buckle broke! :huh: if it hadn't would we this topic have been brought up?

It's just my take on this post. :D

Happy trails :)

Quick Draw Grandpa

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I think most folks are missing the point here,

 

Guns falling on the ground, out of control of the shooter, is the issue.

 

What does being in a holster or not being in a holster, have to do with this?

 

-tex fiddler

I agree, lost control is just that

lost control

if the barrels break the 170 rule during the lost control, it should be penalty

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REF: SHB p.21 / RO1 p.15 (#2)

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See also post #'s 6 / 7 / 12 / .....


The OP's comment re: a "...VERY SENIOR SASS official..." does NOT preclude an error being made on the call.

 

...apparenty the first "senior SASS official" contacted didn't provide a satisfactory answer.

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See also post #'s 6 / 7 / 12 / .....

 

The OP's comment re: a "...VERY SENIOR SASS official..." does NOT preclude an error being made on the call.

 

...apparenty the first "senior SASS official" contacted didn't provide a satisfactory answer.

Keep asking until you get the answer you want...

 

Fillmore

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Having participated in SASS for a decade and half I never realized that SASS is the most dangerous shooting sport in America today. I thank the Wire Forum for enlightening me.

 

Congratulations! You have shot SASS for 15 years, but as a wise man once put it; "just because you've always done it that way, doesn't make it right".

 

As I read the posts on this subject I realized that properly holstered guns sliding to the ground violated so many safety rules and exposed other shooters and onlookers to being swept by the muzzle These rules need to be enforced starting in the parking lots. I am agast in horror when I realized how many thousands of shooters and visitors are swept by shooters unloading cased firearms from their vehicles. Folks are walking back and forth are swept by the muzzles while gun cases are being unloaded and worse even sat on the ground more roughly then the shooters holsters sliding down his legs.

 

You missed the point. We are not talking about guns in the parking lot, we are talking about guns on the firing line. But then I am sure you knew that, but why miss a chance to be sarcastic instead of actually offering some constructive thoughts on the matter.

 

Since the #1 Rule in firearms safety is Treat Every Gun As If It Is Loaded than it doesn't matter whether the gun is cased. In fact it actually more dangerous since a match official, such as the unloading table person, has not checked it.

 

Again, not talking about guns in a case but in a holster at the firing line. BUT since you brought it up do you remember when folks were accidently shooting themselves by putting a loaded Glock into the factory case that they came in? Treating every gun as if it were loaded is still a good rule of thumb.

 

Clearly the rules committee must act to address this dangerous situation. While D.Q.ing shooters in the parking lots will undoubtly reduce attendance it will prove once and for all how committed it is towards safety.

 

The rules committee has already acted on this and Snakebite was kind enough to enlighten us on that. My thought was that maybe we should think about it again. It was just my opinion considering it just flat doesn't look good to drop a gun ON THE FIRING LINE.

 

Come to think of it with the ammunition situation the way it is switching to Airsoft guns is way over due.

 

I am sure no one would stop you if you decided to switch to Airsoft. Please go right ahead.

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Keep asking until you get the answer you want...

 

Fillmore

+ 1

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Having participated in SASS for a decade and half I never realized that SASS is the most dangerous shooting sport in America today. I thank the Wire Forum for enlightening me.

 

Congratulations! You have shot SASS for 15 years, but as a wise man once put it; "just because you've always done it that way, doesn't make it right".

 

As I read the posts on this subject I realized that properly holstered guns sliding to the ground violated so many safety rules and exposed other shooters and onlookers to being swept by the muzzle These rules need to be enforced starting in the parking lots. I am agast in horror when I realized how many thousands of shooters and visitors are swept by shooters unloading cased firearms from their vehicles. Folks are walking back and forth are swept by the muzzles while gun cases are being unloaded and worse even sat on the ground more roughly then the shooters holsters sliding down his legs.

 

You missed the point. We are not talking about guns in the parking lot, we are talking about guns on the firing line. But then I am sure you knew that, but why miss a chance to be sarcastic instead of actually offering some constructive thoughts on the matter.

 

Since the #1 Rule in firearms safety is Treat Every Gun As If It Is Loaded than it doesn't matter whether the gun is cased. In fact it actually more dangerous since a match official, such as the unloading table person, has not checked it.

 

Again, not talking about guns in a case but in a holster at the firing line. BUT since you brought it up do you remember when folks were accidently shooting themselves by putting a loaded Glock into the factory case that they came in? Treating every gun as if it were loaded is still a good rule of thumb.

 

Clearly the rules committee must act to address this dangerous situation. While D.Q.ing shooters in the parking lots will undoubtly reduce attendance it will prove once and for all how committed it is towards safety.

 

The rules committee has already acted on this and Snakebite was kind enough to enlighten us on that. My thought was that maybe we should think about it again. It was just my opinion considering it just flat doesn't look good to drop a gun ON THE FIRING LINE.

 

Come to think of it with the ammunition situation the way it is switching to Airsoft guns is way over due.

 

I am sure no one would stop you if you decided to switch to Airsoft. Please go right ahead.

 

Here we go again! Banning something, not because it's unsafe, but because "it just flat doesn't look good". Kinda like the droopy holsters, don'tcha think?

 

I'd rather be swept by the dropped guns in a holster that were checked for the # of rounds at the loading table and just shot till empty than by the guns in holsters being put on by the shooter before the match. Get swept by those all the time and have personally witnessed a match directors wife come to the first loading table and discover a cylinder full of hollow points she'd left in hers.

 

I don't think Seldom was being sarcastic, just realistic.

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One "last" question. What if they were loaded?


If the guns are considered safe because they are in a holster, could a shooter pick up the rig, put it on a table with the muzzles facing down range and finish the stage with them?

 

-tex fiddler

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Why not?

 

Please see the RULE referenced in post #88

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One "last" question. What if they were loaded?

 

If the guns are considered safe because they are in a holster, could a shooter pick up the rig, put it on a table with the muzzles facing down range and finish the stage with them?

 

-tex fiddler

 

IMHO he would be required to do something similar to the often quoted but actually non-existent 'cross draw dance' i.e. ensure that when the muzzle cleared the holster it was not breaking the 170.

 

edited to reflect being beat on the draw by PWB, once again. :(

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Good question...I don't have a quick answer for that... if the stage did not call for the handguns to be staged, that might present a proceedural issue..... I would expect that some discussion would/should be done in regards to that question. I had the hook on a buckle used on my shotgun belt bend and allowed the belt to come loose. I caught it, and threw it over my shoulder and pulled the shells from it there.... but that could present a problem with the gun belt if muzzle direction was not watched very closely. Hummmmmm???

 

Snakebite

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One "last" question. What if they were loaded?

 

If the guns are considered safe because they are in a holster, could a shooter pick up the rig, put it on a table with the muzzles facing down range and finish the stage with them?

 

-tex fiddler

 

Why not?

 

Please see the RULE referenced in post #88

 

 

While I do agree entirely with the what you we have said here, I do understand the confusion drawn when referencing SHB page 21

 

A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.

 

and SHB Pg 23

 

A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (from the loading table to the unloading table) results in the shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped gun. The Range Officer will recover the gun, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter.

 

the claim is not that you should be penalized for sweeping someone, but you should be penalized that the firearm was dropped.

 

The pistols were dropped. Just like a rifle that was staged by shooter in such a manner that it fell over, or off a table, or whatever.

 

The takeaway from this discussion is that we need to remember as ROs is that a pistol in leather is special. It is safe no matter where it is.

 

While cleared up by the ROC, the shooter handbook and RO manual really do not get that point across.

 

Now, do we need to define how much pistol must be in leather for it to be 'holstered' when on the ground? :unsure:

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SASS matches above the club level are "no alibi" matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability.

SHB p.19

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I honestly think that the only logical answer here is that guns are safe in the holsters as long as the holsters remain safely on the shooter.

 

The truth is that two SASS principles clash here: dropped guns vs. guns in holsters.

 

When both happen at the same time, one principle has to trump the other. The current rule says holsters trump. I think the rule should be change to dropped guns trump.

 

Just my humble opinion....

 

-tex fiddler

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I honestly think that the only logical answer here is that guns are safe in the holsters as long as the holsters remain safely on the shooter.

 

The truth is that two SASS principles clash here: dropped guns vs. guns in holsters.

 

When both happen at the same time, one principle has to trump the other. The current rule says holsters trump. I think the rule should be change to dropped guns trump.

 

Just my humble opinion....

 

-tex fiddler

I don't necessarily disagree, however, how does a broken belt, with the subsequent dropping of the holstered guns differ from the pard that slips and falls during movement on a stage. Guns, even if they stay in the holsters are not moving in a controlled fashion; might sweep any or all folks at the stage. Should we deem that worthy of a penalty also?

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Here we go again! Banning something, not because it's unsafe, but because "it just flat doesn't look good". Kinda like the droopy holsters, don'tcha think?

 

I'd rather be swept by the dropped guns in a holster that were checked for the # of rounds at the loading table and just shot till empty than by the guns in holsters being put on by the shooter before the match. Get swept by those all the time and have personally witnessed a match directors wife come to the first loading table and discover a cylinder full of hollow points she'd left in hers.

 

I don't think Seldom was being sarcastic, just realistic.

 

You don't think he was being sarcastic? DQ'ing folks in the parking lot? Airsoft?

 

But to the point, dropping a gun, again on the firing line, should not be acceptable (IMHO). It is not acceptable to any other action shooting sport that I know of, and for good reason. It does not demonstrate good gun control and presents the possibility of injury or worse.

 

I agree with Tex on this one.....dropped guns in a holster (again, just for clarity, on the firing line) should be the same for a dropped gun without a holster.

 

This is just my .02 worth. My humble opinion. The view from my saddle. Your mileage may vary. Doesn't mean a dang thing at the end of the day.

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A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully
down on an empty chamber
or expended case is considered safe and
may not be interpreted

as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. SHB pg 21

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I wonder if he is going to wear his rig as low in the future.

 

I remember reading somewhere that an excessively low hanging holster doesn't give the shooter any real advantage. If you think about it an excessively low hanging holster lengthens the distance the gun has to travel to reach a proper shooting position actually slowing the draw, It also makes reholstering more difficult. Looking at the position of his holster I suspect wearing the holster like that impedes his movement from position to position. He might think wearing the holster like that makes him faster and because he is young he might have enough natural speed to make it seem that way to outside observers, but I don't think there should be any penalty if somebody wants to handicap himself.

 

Since we really shouldn't grade on style and it probably handicaps him, and because the guns never left the holsters, I think we should let this go.

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And you have to also realize, that by definition, the pistol, in a holster, on the ground by whatever means does not meet the definition of a dropped firearm...

 

ROI Page 29

  • Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

by definition it is not a dropped firearm because the pistol was never in the shooter's control.

 

A shooter may be penalized for a open, empty long gun that slips to the ground

 

An open, empty long gun that slips and falls after being set down and does not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone will result in either a "Prop Failure" call or a 10-second Minor Safety Violation, depending upon the circumstance.

 

But there are not such provisions for pistols that I can see other than under the dropped firearm rule which does not apply. And we have already established that a holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber is not subject to the 170 rule.

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