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Muleskinner_Pat

Dropped Holster

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This weekend, while shooting at a yearly match, I saw something that I hadn't seen before.

One of the shooters was wearing a gun belt that actually went BELOW his back pockets. He had to cinch the belt up really tight to get it to stay up, and as a result, on the first stage, the hook on the belt buckle bent, and the holster ended up on the ground with the guns in them.

The shooter had already shot the pistols, so they were empty, but they were pointed at the crowd, with at least the grips on the ground. We ruled it a Stage DQ, but this was over-ruled later because a senior SASS official ruled it a no-call. No-call? What it they were loaded? What would the ruling have been then - minor safety?

In my 25 years of cowboy action shooting, I have never seen a gun belt fall completely down to the ground before, especially while shooting.

One competitor I can think of - Dr. George - even wears his gunbelt fastened to his suspenders so they can't fall down.

 

After all of this happened, we contacted another VERY SENIOR SASS official, who said it was a no-brainer - of course it was a Stage DQ!

I would like to see some a discussion on this, and would hope SASS will come up with a definitive judgement in case it every happens again.

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No call. As long as the guns remain holstered.

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No call. As long as the guns remain holstered.

 

...... yep ...... that an' all the embarrasment and ribbing that goes with it.

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I forget the exact wording, but holstered guns with the hammer on an empty chamber or spent cartridge are always considered safe. I believe "always" is actually in there.

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I've seen a few fall. Most have been where the shooter had been ill and was slowly working themselves back in the game. As above, as long as they remained holstered, no call.

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No call.

 

"A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster."

 

ROI Page 15

 

The only time I've seen holsters hit the ground the shooter was given a reshoot. I would probably do that the first time, but if I observed that the holsters falling was due to them being worn improperly I would probably make the shooter fix the problem on the clock thereafter.

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Shooters handbook, page 21:


A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.

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Muleskinner -

 

"One of the shooters was wearing a gun belt that actually went BELOW his back pockets"

 

I was there and have never seen anyone wear a gun belt like that and still be able to walk... It may work for him, but it sure does not look safe.

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Muleskinner -

 

"One of the shooters was wearing a gun belt that actually went BELOW his back pockets"

 

I was there and have never seen anyone wear a gun belt like that and still be able to walk... It may work for him, but it sure does not look safe.

 

ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

SHB p.2 “CLOTHING AND ACCOUTERMENTS”

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"A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster."

ROI Page 15

 

 

Hmmm. While it is not stated, I think the spirit and intention of this ruling is that the holster(s) referred to are properly worn on the shooter. How different is that from a rifle or shotgun being dropped? I know the caveat that the "hammer is down on an empty chamber" but what if.... ? (Of course, many of us hang our gunbelts with revolvers in them on our carts.) ??? ...R

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This issue was addressed a few yrs ago by the ROC. As long as the pistols did not come out of the holsters, then it is a "No Call".

 

Snakebite

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SHB p.2 “CLOTHING AND ACCOUTERMENTS”

So would you call a penalty (and if so what), or is my statement about a single reshoot then have to fix the problem on the clock?

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PWB,

 

In my opinion the holster was not worn correctly, but I was told he wore it that way at the CA. state shoot a few weeks ago...

 

The match officials did not call it and as a guest I decided not to start, which I guarantee you would have been a real sh*t storm with at least his dad if I did.

 

BTW: The shooter "Cowboy Upped" and was OK with the call and did not make an issue.

 

Peer pressure won that time -

 

Thanks.

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I know the shooter you speak of and have shot with him dozens of times. This has never happened before to my knowledge.

 

The OP says he had his rig cinched up real tight and something bent and the the rig fell. I cinch up my rig real tight and if something broke like this it would be a no call.

 

I admit the way he wears his rig looks a little different than you and me, but it has never been a problem before.

 

Fillmore

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PWB,

 

In my opinion the holster was not worn correctly, but I was told he wore it that way at the CA. state shoot a few weeks ago...

 

The match officials did not call it and as a guest I decided not to start, which I guarantee you would have been a real sh*t storm with at least his dad if I did.

 

BTW: The shooter "Cowboy Upped" and was OK with the call and did not make an issue.

 

Peer pressure won that time -

 

Thanks.

Hi Folks,

 

I saw the cowboy and holster in question at CA State on the last day during the shootoff. He holds it up with a SG shell in each back pocket.

 

As PWB indicated, it needs to comply with the following, "ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television." IMO, he needs a Buscadero or other rig with drop loops if he wants to wear his holsters that low.

 

I will look for a photo by the match photographer and post it here.

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

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Found it.

 

I'm not sure it is legal to copy photos from this Website. So, here are links to photos of the holster in question.

http://shutttterbug.instaproofs.com/buy_print.php?event=814281&type=original&id=210526734

 

http://shutttterbug.instaproofs.com/buy_print.php?event=814281&type=original&id=210532829

 

From the second link you can go to the "Previous" or "Next" photos to see more of the holster.

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

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I'm not commenting YET on the manner that the holsters were worn... but the issue of them dropping and the gun staying in the holsters should not be an issue at all.

 

Snakebite

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There's a guy in my part of the world who wears his holsters like that. So far, at least that I know of, he's never had a mishap like the one described in the opening post. On the other hand, I didn't think about the fact that wearing them like that could actually be interpreted as against the rules. Hmm...

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Like to see him sit a horse...

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I'm not commenting YET on the manner that the holsters were worn... but the issue of them dropping and the gun staying in the holsters should not be an issue at all.

 

Snakebite

It isn't for me either. (No call.) I am just looking for thoughts on the appropriateness of the positioning of the belt according to the comment of PWB's I copied.

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Snakebite and pards: One of the problems with the CAS rulebooks is that there are "statements/rules" which if violated have no clear penalty attached. IMO wearing the gunbelt in this manner is a Procedural for "shooting out of category" as the gunbelt was not worn in the prescribed manner. I wasn't there and I know this has happened before, but if those in charge want the practice stopped there must be a penalty for doing it.

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I am sure he is a nice person.

 

But got to say. That looks dumb and I see no advantage for him to wear it like that.

 

So not real sure even why he would think he needs to.

 

Oh well. As GG said. To each his own.

 

Well wait to see what Palewolf says on it being legal. I personally hope it's not.

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But got to say. That looks dumb and I see no advantage for him to wear it like that.

 

So not real sure even why he would think he needs to.

It lets him shoot with what are essentially buscadero holsters in a non-buscadero class...

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I agree with Snakebite and Allie (for what it's worth). I don't see how the way the holster is worn negates the rule about holstered revolvers. I was thinking along the same lines as Happy Jack that this would be a progressive penalty if the way the holster is being worn doesn't conform to SHB page 2 ie. first failure to adhere is 10 seconds, second is a SDQ and third is a MDQ. Having said that I think this type of penalty should be called prior to shooting, better yet if you spot it give the shooter a heads up so he has an opportunity to correct it before coming to the line.

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Snakebite and pards: One of the problems with the CAS rulebooks is that there are "statements/rules" which if violated have no clear penalty attached. IMO wearing the gunbelt in this manner is a Procedural for "shooting out of category" as the gunbelt was not worn in the prescribed manner. I wasn't there and I know this has happened before, but if those in charge want the practice stopped there must be a penalty for doing it.

Hap... I think that you know my opinion. We've talked before about the short comings and road blocks that the system has. The ROC does a great job dealing with such issues.... even though their hands are tied on many issues. I salute their efforts.

 

Snakebite

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I appreciate a shooter who is that fast all the time. I'm more concerned with safety and he is safe all the time!

Why do we look for ways to spoil all the fun? One of the days I hope to have a faster time :blink: , but since he shoots

the whole match faster than I can shoot a couple of stages I know he's not worried. ;) I for one will just keep

on trying and at the same time enjoying accomplished shooters. :)

Just my thoughts folks.

Quick Draw Grandpa 48525

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It lets him shoot with what are essentially buscadero holsters in a non-buscadero class...

What category was he shooting in?

 

Classic Cowboy is the only one that does not allow Buscadero rigs. And he didn't look like he met the other requirements for CC, either. So I assume he was not.

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What category was he shooting in?

 

Classic Cowboy is the only one that does not allow Buscadero rigs. And he didn't look like he met the other requirements for CC, either. So I assume he was not.

He shot Wrangler.

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Like to see him sit a horse...

So would Wyatt Earp get a re-shoot (or would those shooting at him), when his gun belt slipped down, hindering his mounting up at the springs shootout? :huh:

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I see nothing in the rules that indicate wearing his holsters low is a rule infraction. Certainly dropping his holstered guns is a no call. If dropping his holsters is a problem, it will be self correcting as it surely took extra time to finish his stage, since pistols were already shot per OP. Nothing in the rules that says anyone has to be able to ride a horse or be able to fight a gun fight with how their equipment is set up. We shoot steel targets. The rule about worn in a manner approporiate to the old west is for a lot more severe dress such as wearing spurs on elbows or equivalent. We do not need a rule on how low a gun belt may be worn.

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Are we going to have a "low holster" rule like last years Rattlesnake rule?

Both designed to hinder a particularly fast shooter.

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This reminds me of the way my students wear their pants sometimes. Looks kinda silly but I guess to each their own.

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