Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Muleskinner_Pat

Dropped Holster

Recommended Posts

I've been in the game maybe 6 years now.

 

I have seen gunbelts fall down, it's a no call, loaded or not, as long as the guns stay in the holsters.

 

My opinion is that it is not grounds for a reshoot. But if at a monthly one was offered, I wouldn't argue the point.

 

I have seen at least two dropped loaded guns, one was mine at the loading table, MDQ every time. At a monthly, after informing of MDQ if your club wants to let the shooter finish the match, that's your call.

 

I have seen a dropped pistol that was shot dry, SDQ.

 

Now as far as gunbelts being worn low to where you wonder what, if anything is holding it up, yup, I've seen that too. In my opinion it doesn't violate any current rule, and I would hate to see a rule written just to address it.

 

That is the view from my saddle, yours may differ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pants on the ground, holsters on the ground.

 

 

Basically, it's a silly way to wear the holsters and belt. Not sure it's a safety infraction, but he loses 10 style points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yepper..makes you look twice and wonder, but there are limits to the tyranny of rules, too. Even if we made the rule, no one would enforce it so why bother? It's like the footwear rule... not gonna happen and really, you can no more define "athletic shoe" than you can "worn as intended".

 

We aren't reenactors so old west photos are NOT our rules guidance. Either specify it or let it go.

 

Loaded guns with hammer down on empty HOSTERED...NO CALL either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It lets him shoot with what are essentially buscadero holsters in a non-buscadero class...

Then just get dropped holsters for goodness sake. They make some really nice ones now. Dropped and canted.

 

Are we going to have a "low holster" rule like last years Rattlesnake rule?

Both designed to hinder a particularly fast shooter.

 

You will have to let me know just how making him wear them correctly.

OR

Just having him get some that will ride in the same place but the belt is in a better position would slow him down any at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Snakebite,

 

If that was a no call, what is the call if the guns are loaded?

 

-tex fiddler

Still a No Call, if the guns were loaded according to the rules: hammer down on a spent cartridge or empty chamber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This issue was addressed a few yrs ago by the ROC. As long as the pistols did not come out of the holsters, then it is a "No Call".

 

Snakebite

cept fer

As PWB indicated, it needs to comply with the following, "ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television." IMO, he needs a Buscadero or other rig with drop loops if he wants to wear his holsters that low.

 

did the holster fall due to improper position of the holster to start with

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folks, let's be reasonable. Guns falling on the ground should not be a no call.

 

Every rule in SASS errors on the side of safety. If a person loaded 6 rounds by accident and that revolver doesn't have a safety bar, it could fire and maybe kill somebody if it falls to the ground. Staying in the holster obviously does not make it safe.

 

Why have a special rule if it stays in the holster? Don't we have enough rules?

 

-tex fiddler

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone seems to be getting worked up about how the holsters were worn - which is not really why I started this topic.

Forget the rule book for just a second.

What part of losing control of your guns and having them hit the ground doesn't apply in this case? Just because they are in the holsters? And if they are loaded, it is the same call? Are Tex Fiddler and I the only ones having a problem with this?

 

If I put my rifle down safely pointed down range, with the chamber empty, and the lever closes as it hits the table, it is a minor safety, even though the chamber is empty. But it is empty. No shells, hulls, nothing in the gun.

If I leave an empty shell sticking out of my 97 shotgun at an angle with the action open, it is a minor safety. Even though it is not pointed at anyone and an empty cartridge can't hurt anyone.

If I break the 180 with my crossdraw as I put it away (and I DON'T use a crossdraw rig), the hammer is down on an empty chamber, but I get a Stage DQ for the barrel pointing in the wrong direction.

But you don't have a problem with guns hitting the ground as long as they are still in their holsters, even though they are pointed straight back at the crowd. Even when they are loaded?? As the holsters are picked up, they are still breaking the 180, right up until the time they get vertical.

 

If you put this holster rule in context with all your other rules, it doesn't make sense. It seems to me that SASS went overboard on rules a long time ago in the interest of being safe. OK. While I don't agree with some of the rules, and the empty hull in the 97 is one of them, I abide by them. I just don't see how pistols falling to the ground, out of control of the shooter, is safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Tex is I sit down to lunch while wearing my holstered guns and they're laying across the top of my leg and sweep you would you call that a SDQ? What if I'm squatting down to pick up brass, or I've taken them off, in the holsters to put them in my cart? I like the rule as it's written, dropped holstered guns are a no call, loaded or not.

 

I personally won't quibble with your position on safety Muleskinner, but as the rules are written it seems to be pretty clearly a no call in terms of the holstered guns falling, perhaps not in terms of wearing the accoutrements correctly.

 

I don't understand saying to forget the rule book, but then immediately asking why losing control doesn't apply. If we're not using the rules to determine what the call is, what are we supposed to be using? You say 'just because they are in the holsters?' The rule book says yes because they're holstered it's a no call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

to each his own, I guess. Seems mighty risky to me, would be pretty easy to get tripped up running from one location to another. I dont see a competative advantage, but I also dont think he could comfortably ride a horse either.

 

Kind of remids me of an old Tim Conway movie!

 

But...if they stay holstered, no call would be my interpretation of the dropped gun question, as for the legality of the way he wears them, I have no opinion, other than if I was RO/TO, and they fell during a match, I would request that they be made secure, for the safety of the shooter and others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Capt. Burt - I sort of thought the reason we had to have someone check our guns at the un-loading table was to ensure that once the shooter left the line that the guns were unloaded. Also, are you forgetting about the rule that says that once you approach the line with your pistols loaded, you may not bend over to pick up shotgun shells you dropped, whether on the clock or not? I thought all those rules were to protect us from having to stare down the barrel of a loaded revolver, and hopefully keep us all safe. That is why you can sit down with your guns on and it doesn't bother me - not because they are in your holsters, but because they have been checked at the unloading table and are known to be safe. Otherwise, why are we checking them at the unloading table????

 

That's a little different from looking down the muzzles of guns that have just been fired (as was the case last weekend) or in the case Tex and I are really arguing - guns that were loaded, and hopefully with the chamber under the hammer empty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got my summer 2013 edition of GUNS OF THE OLD WEST. On page 26 in an article by La Vista Bill Bell, there is a photo of a cow hand wearing his holster in the manner previously illustrated by Allie Mo. When I saw it, I was in disbelief and couldn't understand why anyone would wear their gun belt in such a fashion. If this is going to become a trend, I think it should be addressed now. What PWB stated should be enforced by all clubs. No way was this ever portrayed on the silver screen, television, or used during the old west .

 

WR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shooters handbook, page 11:

Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

 

Proposed corresponding rule:

Gun belts must be worn at or above anus.

 

I'm not volunteering to be the two finger checker. :blink:

 

I can just imagine if Dahlin' (she'll be 16 Saturday) saw this. She'd probably say, "Seriously?!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mabey, just mabey, they was shooti'n a new show a the monkeys!!!!

 

Hee, hee!!!!!

 

Furball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok last time I checked their isn't a person shooting in SASS that was around during the Old West, so who's to say at least a few people wore them that way, because it was all they could afford and made it work, really folks making something out of nothing.

 

KK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shooters handbook, page 11:

Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

 

Proposed corresponding rule:

Gun belts must be worn at or above anus.

 

I'm not volunteering to be the two finger checker. :blink:

 

I can just imagine if Dahlin' (she'll be 16 Saturday) saw this. She'd probably say, "Seriously?!"

Maybe no butt cracks above the gun belt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok last time I checked their isn't a person shooting in SASS that was around during the Old West, so who's to say at least a few people wore them that way, because it was all they could afford and made it work, really folks making something out of nothing.

 

KK

I think only Cowboys in prison did...if they were..."available".

 

:mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm...

 

Although the dropped holster is a no call, as long as the guns remain in the holster, I don't think the discussion is "making something out of nothing."

 

I hope we all can learn something here.

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

PS Both Allie Mos hate when folks are ridiculed for asking opinions or questions. One of my least favorite statements, which I didn't see here, is "some folks need to get a life," when asking a rules question that someone disagrees with or with their "all knowing superiority" knew the correct answer. We wouldn't have this type of thread if all rules were "crystal clear." That is not a slam on the rules or ROC, it is just something I've learned. It is rare that everything is ever crystal clear to everyone.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Capt. Burt - I sort of thought the reason we had to have someone check our guns at the un-loading table was to ensure that once the shooter left the line that the guns were unloaded. Also, are you forgetting about the rule that says that once you approach the line with your pistols loaded, you may not bend over to pick up shotgun shells you dropped, whether on the clock or not? I thought all those rules were to protect us from having to stare down the barrel of a loaded revolver, and hopefully keep us all safe. That is why you can sit down with your guns on and it doesn't bother me - not because they are in your holsters, but because they have been checked at the unloading table and are known to be safe. Otherwise, why are we checking them at the unloading table????

 

That's a little different from looking down the muzzles of guns that have just been fired (as was the case last weekend) or in the case Tex and I are really arguing - guns that were loaded, and hopefully with the chamber under the hammer empty.

Hi Muleskinner. Let me start by saying It's not my intent to belittle you or your position, merely to take a different position and explain why, so I mean no offense. You mentioned checking our guns at the unloading table as being important with respect to being swept by the holstered guns of a shooter who isn't on the firing line correct? We're also checked at the loading table to ensure an empty round is under the hammer aren't we? If you feel secure in the first situation, why not the second? In both cases an error could result in a loaded gun. What about someone shooting crossdraw with a canted holster? There's a pretty good chance that posse members are going to be swept by that holstered gun when he is setting up for the stage, will that be a no call? A loaded holstered gun will be pointed at you. I've seen that many times (admittedly it's your feet or lower legs), as long as the shooter doesn't do it while drawing, it's still a no call.

 

It's just my opinion, but I think if you make calls on holstered loaded guns, you're opening up a can of worms and there are a lot of permutations that will have to be thought through. The rule book would have to grow accordingly. I don't think it will be as simple as we might like. Just my opinion, YMMV. ^_^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most folks are missing the point here,

 

Guns falling on the ground, out of control of the shooter, is the issue.


What does being in a holster or not being in a holster, have to do with this?

 

-tex fiddler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most folks are missing the point here,

 

Guns falling on the ground, out of control of the shooter, is the issue.

 

What does being in a holster or not being in a holster, have to do with this?

 

-tex fiddler

Hi Tex!

 

I think that is a question for the ROC. The rest of us don't really have the "authority" to give a definitive answer.

 

However, I wouldn't be me if I let that stop me from replying. :rolleyes:;)

 

I think that a holstered revolver is less likely to have a trigger and hammer movement, which could result in a firing, than an unholstered revolver. :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Tex!

 

I think that is a question for the ROC. The rest of us don't really have the "authority" to give a definitive answer.

 

However, I wouldn't be me if I let that stop me from replying. :rolleyes:;)

 

I think that a holstered revolver is less likely to have a trigger and hammer movement, which could result in a firing, than an unholstered revolver. :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Just Allie Mo

I think Tex was stating a rhetorical question...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue of dropping holstered pistols has been addressed and declared a no call. End of that story. Don't need any rule changes!

 

Now onto the holster issue. I shot the Ca State match on the same possee with the shooter wearing the holsters in question. If you were not there I'll mention that there was a LOT of movement required and at no time were his pistols in danger of falling down because of the way he wears his holsters. Items in his pockets keep the belt above them, just as a wallet does for many other "flat-back" shooters. As stated in original post his buckle broke. No call, end of story.

 

If you want to DQ him for wearing holsters "too low" just because YOU think it looks silly and "not how it was worn" you have my blessing to AFTER you DQ everybody wearing a digital watch or a cell phone holder, pushing a plastic baby buggy gun cart etc, etc, etc. Don't need any more rule changes to make the clothing police happy.

 

p.s. He's a really nice guy, hard worker, full of "the cowboy way" and one HELL of a shooter!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think only Cowboys in prison did...if they were..."available".

 

:mellow:

Ok now I have to poke my minds out, thanks for that image.

 

KK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Capt. Burt

I wasn't offended, I was just trying to argue that the rules are not consistent. Your guns, when holstered, are checked at the unloading table so they will be safe when you leave the table. Am I willing to trust the check at the loading table that there is not a round under the hammer - not so much at most matches, since most of the time there is no one checking guns at the loading table. But that digresses -

If I drop a loaded gun and it hits the ground it is a match DQ. Why make a special rule that says if you drop the whole holster it is a no-call? The result is the same. The gun is on the ground, out of the control of the shooter, pointed at the gallery. Why is one safe and the other not? In this whole thread, not one person has even attempted to answer that question. And, if they are both safe, then lets just get rid of the match DQ rule for dropping a loaded gun, since all of you agreed it was safe to do so.

 

I really don't care where anyone wears their holsters, although I have to admit it looked funny, and a buscadero rig would leave the guns at the same height but with the belt a lot higher. I certainly didn't mean to have this whole thing go off at a tangent. My goal was to point out that the rules are inconsistent regarding safety, and I guess I failed at that since no one but Tex and I feel guns falling to the ground while in a holster are unsafe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What part of losing control of your guns and having them hit the ground doesn't apply in this case? Just because they are in the holsters? And if they are loaded, it is the same call? Are Tex Fiddler and I the only ones having a problem with this?

 

If I put my rifle down safely pointed down range, with the chamber empty, and the lever closes as it hits the table, it is a minor safety, even though the chamber is empty. But it is empty. No shells, hulls, nothing in the gun.

If I leave an empty shell sticking out of my 97 shotgun at an angle with the action open, it is a minor safety. Even though it is not pointed at anyone and an empty cartridge can't hurt anyone.

If I break the 180 with my crossdraw as I put it away (and I DON'T use a crossdraw rig), the hammer is down on an empty chamber, but I get a Stage DQ for the barrel pointing in the wrong direction.

But you don't have a problem with guns hitting the ground as long as they are still in their holsters, even though they are pointed straight back at the crowd. Even when they are loaded?? As the holsters are picked up, they are still breaking the 180, right up until the time they get vertical.

 

If you put this holster rule in context with all your other rules, it doesn't make sense. It seems to me that SASS went overboard on rules a long time ago in the interest of being safe. OK. While I don't agree with some of the rules, and the empty hull in the 97 is one of them, I abide by them. I just don't see how pistols falling to the ground, out of control of the shooter, is safe.

 

I think most folks are missing the point here,

Guns falling on the ground, out of control of the shooter, is the issue.

What does being in a holster or not being in a holster, have to do with this?

-tex fiddler

 

If you look at the rule book carefully, there are rules that cover circumstances like having 6 loaded in your revolvers, whether they're holstered or not, dropped or not. All apples will not necessarily taste the same. Just because 2 are red, 1 green doesn't mean the 2 red ones will taste the same. Generally speaking, the difference between dropped guns and dropped holsters, is that one doesn't have the holsters in your hand. Ergo, while you may have them tied around your waist (or in some proximity thereto), you don't really EVER have control of them. So how do you LOSE control of something you didn't have control of in the first place? So, you gonna penalize a shooter who's belt breaks or drops while the guns are out in the shooter's hands?

 

It's the same "non-issue" as having rules against stuff like carrying a double-bbl shotgun, broken open, with the muzzles pointed down. And why are carts that carry the long guns in a horizontal fashion with the actions open illegal? In the one case, because some fastidious nincompoop got their knickers all wadded up because someone had two tubes pointed at their feet, and by God, shells could fall from the sky like mana and cause the shotgun to close and fire! Do we really need to carry such foolishness to the very real possibility that someone's gunbelt is likely to break, and give them a MDQ if the guns were loaded, a SDQ if the guns weren't? Do we need to carry out probablility studies to determine the likelihood of holstered guns being fired while dropped from a height of X feet? What if they were equipped and used hammer thongs? Would that negate the penalty? Why not just institute a hammer thong rule, failure to use a hammer thong on holsters manufactured after 2013 would result in a MSV for the first violation, a SDQ for the 2nd, and a MDQ for the 3rd... all on the off-chance that the holsters might either come loose from the belt, or the belt itself fail, fall, and the guns might or might not be loaded in which case they might or might not fire, possibly or possibly not injuring some innocent bystander. (Since my holster was manufactured in 1990, it would pre-date such a hammer thong rule, much as my '55 Chevy doesn't have to have, nor does it have STUPID seatbelts. And if you fear for your safety, don't ride in it... or shoot where I do... )... ok, that was a bit too far... I'm sorry, I apologize... but many of these stupid rules we do have, have come about just from such convoluted logic.

 

Frankly if the shooter wants to wear his belt in such a fashion that restricts his movement, ok... just might slow 'im down enough that gives another hope. The additional strain on belt and buckle is obvious if the buckle broke from all the tension exerted on it from muscle flex. Stupid? IMO, yes, but I wouldn't be the one to call it... as not within the rules.

 

Pat, there's obviously a problem in how the belt is worn if there needs to be "stuff" in the rear pockets to hold up the belt. Buy the boy a buscadero rig and be done with it. He might just appreciate a bit more freedom of movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tex Fiddler; Sorry to be so late responding to you, I just got back home. I'm not going to argue whether the rule, or the "Official" interpretation of the rule is right or wrong. If a rule needs to be changed, then it can only be done by the WB or the TGs.

 

The situation stated, would be a NO CALL, whether the guns were loaded or not loaded. If there was 6 rounds in the gun, or if a live round was under the hammer, then those situations would fall under a different rule.

 

As to whether or not "Butt Plug" holsters are legal, this is not the first time the issue has come up. Unless directed otherwise by an "Official" clarification, I do not plan to make any call on them. If it is decided that they are not legal, then whether I agree or not, I will enforce it.

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most folks are missing the point here,

 

Guns falling on the ground, out of control of the shooter, is the issue.

 

What does being in a holster or not being in a holster, have to do with this?

 

-tex fiddler

Because the RO committee has ruled a holstered loaded or unloaded gun is a no call. There are several SASS rules you could argue make no sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are we going to have a "low holster" rule like last years Rattlesnake rule?

Both designed to hinder a particularly fast shooter.

Oh BULL!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, its a no call...as has been previously stated. I personally need no advantage to wearing the holsters that way, but I guess he does, so let him have at it. Im not going to say whether I agree or disagree with the rule, but I will say, if it happened more than once, say every couple matches, or a couple times during a match, then I could see it being an issue that needs to be addressed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Griff, carts that carry the long guns horizontal are not illegal SASS-wide yet and hopefully never will be. There may be local prohibitions but no universal one. Same with carrying the broke open double or even the rifle muzzle down. No SASS rule against it but almost universally frowned on and guaranteed to have one meeting new folks if practiced. Some of those folks may be a little on the vehement side.

 

Now I will say it. We need a specific iron clad rule against wearing a pistol belt like that pard does it. It is completely incongruous and makes all of us and the sport itself appear if not downright stoopid at least less than serious.

 

Now I will go out on a limb and state my considered opinion that crotch holsters are almost as bad. They just do NOT look right. Period. If you think they do after looking in the mirror ye might need new glasses.

 

The trend to crotch holsters is on the verge of becoming epiemic and needs to be reversed. Wearing the pistol belt as low as this pard does needs to be nipped in the bud before it spreads.

 

Can you imagine being at a big match and seeing hundreds of shooters walking around with their pistol belts that low? I would be shamed from the game if it ever came to that. And I feel just the same way about crotch holsters. Can you say slippery slope?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue of dropping holstered pistols has been addressed and declared a no call. End of that story. Don't need any rule changes!

 

Now onto the holster issue. I shot the Ca State match on the same possee with the shooter wearing the holsters in question. If you were not there I'll mention that there was a LOT of movement required and at no time were his pistols in danger of falling down because of the way he wears his holsters. Items in his pockets keep the belt above them, just as a wallet does for many other "flat-back" shooters. As stated in original post his buckle broke. No call, end of story.

 

If you want to DQ him for wearing holsters "too low" just because YOU think it looks silly and "not how it was worn" you have my blessing to AFTER you DQ everybody wearing a digital watch or a cell phone holder, pushing a plastic baby buggy gun cart etc, etc, etc. Don't need any more rule changes to make the clothing police happy.

 

p.s. He's a really nice guy, hard worker, full of "the cowboy way" and one HELL of a shooter!

Hear, Hear. Well said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question has been asked an answered...no call per the existing rules. Now to how he wears his holster. As one Cowboy offered he found a picture of a Cowboy wearing his holsters like that. Kind of like the guy wearing a stocking cap to a shoot and all the uproar that caused. Leave it alone,not everyone wore the Hollywood Cowboy hats. How many Cowboys wore two guns...a strong side and a cross draw. Two strong side holsters just two fists apart or crotch covers.

 

If you go through the pictures for that shoot I saw a cross draw that is at least 45degrees and was pointing at people, guy with the sombrero. One looked like he had his bandolier tied to his holster. And a number of people have apparently had their belly buttons raised to allow their shotgun belt to be worn higher. If you walk around you surely will find "violations". Once you apply something to one you better be prepared to take it to everyone who "adjusts" the rules.

 

I have a big gut and have had my holsters fall a few times. Do I need to get into shape so I don't compromise the safety of others?

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.