State Champions writing stages

[WOGG]

Amen Creeker Amen. Could you imagine how much more whinning the whinners would do if they had to get off there duffs and help.

We have a saying around here. If you dont help with the shoots and functions around here SHUT UP!

[Madd Mike #8595]

Everyone is intitled to there opinon. So my question is can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match. Nobody complains about him doing it for any other two day match or monthly matches.

 

 

wow

as long as that state champion or ANY STAGE WRITER

does not write a single >> stage (or more)

set out to "git" a single person,, or ?,,

then,,,,no problem

 

I know a feller, that will use vertical stageing for shotguns

just ta git at double shooters

and then bragg - bout it - later

 

that wood bee wrong ;)

etc

 

mileage wil vary

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

We just had our state match here recently. And at the dinner we put out question and comment sheets and ask the shooters to fill them out. The idea is to see in what ways we can improve the match for the next year. This year our rating was (by the shooters at the match) a 9.8 out of 10. (thank you) We get all kinds of answers. We as a board go through and read all of them and discuss them. This year someone wrote that a group of people think that the state champion should NOT write stages for the match. And if he does they will boycott the match next year. Everyone is intitled to there opinon. So my question is can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match. Nobody complains about him doing it for any other two day match or monthly matches.

 

 

WOGG, there are people playing thess silly boycott games all over the USA for a variety of reasons. They are all childish or self-serving. People need to let the past go and move on. I can think of no rational reason why a state champion should not write stages, unless they are blatantly written to favor a style of shooting or a particular firearm. I don't see that happening if a committee is reviewing the stages. We should all be supporting one another instead of playing nonsense games.

[Lead Ringer]

I wish I could have shot Idaho's state match this year! It was my favorite match of 2011!!!

Wogg & company put on a fun, fast shoot.

I would have only complained about Wogg writing stages if he beat me;) So, mostlikely I would have complained. Ha ha.

Ringer

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

Anyone who sets traps for a particular style shooter or brags about getting their way by bullying the posse out of penalizing them when they earned a P...has no honor That is not the Cowboy Way!

 

I won't "name names." Just know that news of negative behavior travels fast. Folks want to have fun at matches not deal with a "win at any cost attitude."

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Har and HAH! It's an idle threat. Where else is this little clique gonna go for hundreds of miles that week-end? Guarantee they are not gonna boycott and miss all the fun. Don't expect them to pitch in and write any stages either. They are just mouthing off because that is what they do best. Besides if they don't show they will miss the opportunity to whine and they are not about to do that. If by some miracle they do not show up it's just their loss and the rest of ya can have even more fun.

[twelve mile REB]

One way to get around any problems with preknowledge is to publish the course of fire on the clubs web site about a month before the match. Then if you wish you can set it up and go to town. Other wise don't worry about the complainers if they couldn't belly ache it would kill them. I have known you for more than a few years now and think you are much like I am. I don't practice stages, I practice skills and basics that approach has worked pretty good for me over time.

see ya down the creek

12

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Thank you for all your answers to my question. And Gateway Kid Would you tell blackjack that I`m coming back to shoot your state match and he better be shooting with me or I`ll drag his big ugly mug outback and give him my whatfer.

 

Not the WHATFER!?!!

He is probably shaking in his boots right now

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Not the WHATFER!?!!

He is probably shaking in his boots right now

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

Yeah, but those boots aren't SASS legal... except on the western slope... at Thunder Mtn shootists... can't wait to see what he wears to WR, EOT, HOW...talk about WHATFER!

[Appaloosa Amy, #63949, CT]

For several years I have written our State Match with the help of Yankee and inputs from my husband. I spend 80 plus hours writing & rewriting them and every year as we are setting up the stages Yankee and I rely on the shooter's book because we can't remember diddley. It seems like we are constantly answering questions with "I don't know look at the book".

 

This year I wrote one stage with 9 rounds...and I read the stage to our posse and emphasized 9 rounds! Guess who overloaded the rifle...Yep, writing the stages is an advantage...for all the other shooters.

 

AA

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

For several years I have written our State Match with the help of Yankee and inputs from my husband. I spend 80 plus hours writing & rewriting them and every year as we are setting up the stages Yankee and I rely on the shooter's book because we can't remember diddley. It seems like we are constantly answering questions with "I don't know look at the book".

 

This year I wrote one stage with 9 rounds...and I read the stage to our posse and emphasized 9 rounds! Guess who overloaded the rifle...Yep, writing the stages is an advantage...for all the other shooters.

 

AA

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I'm not a state champion but I write stages for monthly matches and I wrote the whole match for Ides of March a 200 shooter annual down in Fl, the Ides I wrote I got a Procedural on one stage which I never get

I and was one of my worst Ides .I won the year before when someone else wrote the stages I write matches so the majority of the shooters have a great time easy sequences with a fair amount of movement no stand & delivers.

 

If anything I will say writng a match is a disadvantage as others have said,I would prefer not too from a shooters standpoint.I never practiced any stage I wrote for any match.Some matches publish stages ahead of time,I still would not practice published stages unless there was something weird I think it hurts not helps.

 

 

It's much easier to be just a shooter than help with a match and try to shoot too.

 

 

 

AO

[Silver Shadow]

Wogg,

 

I have to side with the Sour Grapes call. I know of what I speak cause I've been known to partake of said grape myself on occasion. I had occasion to shoot with your group for this year's Renegade Shootout. I was more than a little disappointed when I read the posse assignment/category list to find I fell in the category with the name on the championship plaques posted at the gate. It did, however, give me some comfort when, as usual, I was able to achieve a solid last place, to know the caliber of competition I was up against. This being said, I want you and the rest of the outfit you run with to know, I had an absolute "BLAST!!!!". I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to another chance to shoot with you people. As for stages being written to the advantage of you or any of the rest of the hard working crew in Boise, POPPYCOCK! The stages were well done, basic, and understandable. The descriptions handed out at registration were easy to follow and well written. I can't see that anyone might claim someone might have gained advantage by knowing them in advance. Any general practice session would have produced the same such advantage. Don't change a thing. Your group is a class act. Just say "so long" to the boycotters "and happy trails". I know I will be back to shoot with the OTRR as often as I can make it happen, although I may have to at least change categories or something just to try an save some shred of self esteem.

 

Silver "still smiling from the experience" Shadow

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

This year I wrote one stage with 9 rounds...and I read the stage to our posse and emphasized 9 rounds! Guess who overloaded the rifle...Yep, writing the stages is an advantage...for all the other shooters.

 

AA

 

 

Been there, done that!

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Answer - NO

[Blastmaster]

Some, but not all, Boycotters have been know to get on the Wire and bad mouth, back stab a particular match/event to draw negative dark clouds (influence other shooters to not attend) in hopes to sway the organizers over so they get their way. Seen it happen.

[Willie Killem]

Wogg, for the past six years my partners (when the sheriff lets them loose) and I have made the trip to Boise. I personally have not missed the Renegade or the state in that time, in fact I try to get there on Tuesday to help in any way I can. You and John Bear, Bert, Mike and all the others work your butts off to have the best shoot possible. I have shot with you all over the northwest. To think anyone would believe you only shoot stages that benefit you makes me furious. My friend,you keep writing them and I'll show up and shoot them. I have seen you crash on your stages and seen you smoke thru them. It's not how the stages are written, but the patience to practice every facet of the game. By the way, there is an Oregon flag on the Schmidt house. Willie

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Why in the world would you tell anybody who wrote any of the stages?

 

If the board and the Range master approved the stages then they own them.

[Badlands Bud #15821]

We just had our state match here recently. And at the dinner we put out question and comment sheets and ask the shooters to fill them out. The idea is to see in what ways we can improve the match for the next year. This year our rating was (by the shooters at the match) a 9.8 out of 10. (thank you) We get all kinds of answers. We as a board go through and read all of them and discuss them. This year someone wrote that a group of people think that the state champion should NOT write stages for the match. And if he does they will boycott the match next year. Everyone is intitled to there opinon. So my question is can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match. Nobody complains about him doing it for any other two day match or monthly matches.

There are a lot of different perspectives through which one might view this situation. The real value judgement comes in what weight you give to each perspective.

 

I can imagine a person who views a match written by the winner as being inherently improprietous. I have even seen match directors who have decided not to shoot a match they have written to avoid the appearance of impropriety. As has been mentioned, whether conscious or not, a stage writer may write stages which cater to their strengths, stages which do not treat the left/right handed equally, which do not treat the duelist/gunfighter equally, which do not treat the smokeless/black powder shooters equally, which do not treat the double/'97 shooters equally. There are concerns about the physical abilities of the shooters; some shooters may be able to cope with a "track meet" style match, while others may benefit from a "stand and deliver" type match. I would suppose that there may be a grain of truth to this perspective, and from time to time there may be some impropriety.

 

The way I see it, if the MD is farming out the stage writing to the state champion, the concern should be brought to the match director and the state champion is just helping out. If the state champion is the MD, there's really no cause for complaint. I've never seen an MD who could write a match which would compensate for the rigors of the position to the point where they could be said to have written the match for their victory. There's to much stress, too many issues, too much to do as a Match Director to focus on one's performance in a match to the point where you could perform at a level where the advantages written in could be realized in any meaningful way. Heck, I wouldn't want to be a Posse Marshall at a match where I was trying to perform well, much less direct the whole match. I would hope that the complaining party could be brought to realize this.

 

If they can't, well, I feel pretty much as PWB does.

 

Bud

 

[Edited for clarity]

[Badlands Bud #15821]

And I do hope that my post will be taken as support for the hard work put in by match directors everywhere, as well as my personal opinion on the effects of such work on match performance and not a personal attack on any who perceive impropriety in the practice described in the OP.

 

Respectful disagreement is still allowed on the internet, right?

[Blastmaster]

Don't know why people are concerned about State Champions writing stages. There are numerous 'excellent' shooters at each club that could write stages and have an agenda all their own. I understand the OP was approached concerning State Champions.

[Cowboy Junky]

Being in that position I struggled with this myself. Here are some things to think about. Many times the “State Champion” is a shooter that shoots a lot, has a great understanding of stages, see’s many different types by traveling around travels around to other shoots etc. Many folks have the impression that it’s easy to write “good” stages……let alone a good match and its hard work to balance out the fun and difficultly level for such a wide variety of shooters.

 

If you have someone doing that well and they have a passion for the sport because they do all this AND take on the extra work to put on a good state match for everyone that is a great thing. So, WHY in the world would you want to make him set on the sidelines just because you think he might have a small advantage?

 

IMHO it’s not an advantage if you are working the match anyway. The extra stress and work takes away from your focus and hurts you more than any advantage you might have by writing the stages…..assuming you are “fair” and not writing for your strengths. Even then that should obvious to those that shoot regularly with that person and I don’t think anyone at any level of stage writing should be doing that.

 

At a big shoot EVERYONE gets the stages beforehand (or has that option) so no one is going in there blind and has an opportunity to review the stages and walk them prior to the shoot.

 

We never pre-shot our stages……and if we had to shoot one I would let another less competitive shooter “test” it out if I felt the need to. Most of the time you don’t even have the time OR energy to set out there if you WANTED to…..lol. Plus a true winner is someone that helps shooters and doesn’t look to gain an edge on his fellow shooters and wants to be them at their best…..not by cheating.

 

Also we have all probably shot a stage more than once……right? How many times was your second or third run worse than the first? My point is you could shoot the stages over and over and it really makes little difference in the outcome overall unless you could take the time from the best run of the batch.

 

Last, contrary to what some folks think…..IMO people go to big shoots to shoot…….if you have someone writing good stages then let the man do his job and enjoy the match he’s putting in hours and days of hard work towards so others can come and have fun……..don’t punish him for that.....it’s NOT the cowboy way. Good shooters are good shooters NOT because they saw/wrote the stages before the others but because they work hard to be at the top.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Next week will be my sixth year of wrting stages and acting as match director for the MI state shoot. I can safely say that the endless hours of planning,emails,phone calls,texts and general lack of sleep has been anything but a competative advantage for either my wife or I. We also post our stages online in advance. In doing so I have never been accused of having a advantage over anybody else because I wrote the stages. I'm sure it's been said or mumbled but I don't count statements that a person won't say to another persons face as legitimate.I won't preshoot or shoot through (yes a big match can be held without preshooting or shoot throughs). Overall I love having the oppurtunity to be a part of our awesome state shoot, it's worth every minute.

[Lead Ringer]

Next week will be my sixth year of wrting stages and acting as match director for the MI state shoot. I can safely say that the endless hours of planning,emails,phone calls,texts and general lack of sleep has been anything but a competative advantage for either my wife or I. We also post our stages online in advance. In doing so I have never been accused of having a advantage over anybody else because I wrote the stages. I'm sure it's been said or mumbled but I don't count statements that a person won't say to another persons face as legitimate.I won't preshoot or shoot through (yes a big match can be held without preshooting or shoot throughs). Overall I love having the oppurtunity to be a part of our awesome state shoot, it's worth every minute.

+1....seems that posting the stages in advance would sideline the issue. Any complaints could be answered with "everybody had the opportunity to review the stages online". The End!

Ringer

[Dang It Dan 13202]

I don't know, it seems so clear to me. I always shoot better when my back hurts from lifting steel (could barely walk last year) and my hands are stiff from driving target stands in the ground. Yes, to me, I am not "match-ready" unless I have spent at least a week on the range before the match setting props, painting, loading and unloading equipment, getting up while it's dark to drive to the range, working all day, eating fast food, and driving home in the dark. Yeah! - that is how true champions are made. (tongue in cheek mode off)

 

Let me say this; as in every business, there are some customers need to be fired. If ONE guy wrote a comment like that, let them go elsewhere. If TEN folks wrote that, then you might want to examine what's being done.

 

I think you can tell by the overall responses here what 99.9% of the folks think about a comment like that. Act accordingly.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I don't know, it seems so clear to me. I always shoot better when my back hurts from lifting steel (could barely walk last year) and my hands are stiff from driving target stands in the ground. Yes, to me, I am not "match-ready" unless I have spent at least a week on the range before the match setting props, painting, loading and unloading equipment, getting up while it's dark to drive to the range, working all day, eating fast food, and driving home in the dark. Yeah! - that is how true champions are made. (tongue in cheek mode off)

 

Let me say this; as in every business, there are some customers need to be fired. If ONE guy wrote a comment like that, let them go elsewhere. If TEN folks wrote that, then you might want to examine what's being done.

 

I think you can tell by the overall responses here what 99.9% of the folks think about a comment like that. Act accordingly.

 

Dan, I don't feel prepared until at least one piece of steel is dropped on my hand.

[Bad Hombre #23212]

We just had our state match here recently. And at the dinner we put out question and comment sheets and ask the shooters to fill them out. The idea is to see in what ways we can improve the match for the next year. This year our rating was (by the shooters at the match) a 9.8 out of 10. (thank you) We get all kinds of answers. We as a board go through and read all of them and discuss them. This year someone wrote that a group of people think that the state champion should NOT write stages for the match. And if he does they will boycott the match next year. Everyone is intitled to there opinon. So my question is can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match. Nobody complains about him doing it for any other two day match or monthly matches.

I have to agree with the boycotters here!!

At a large annual (the big match), I lost by .05 seconds.

As I was pulling my cart into the last stage, I noticed the eventual winner reading the stage description from the shooters pamphlet, before I got there.

This prior knowledge is unacceptable!!!

 

These Boycotters are doing the right thing!!

Where is your sympathy, compassion, the oiling of the squeaky wheel ?

I would hope that you help these folks out next year by simply rejecting their applications…less they forget!!!!!

 

Yours sincerely

Bad Hombre

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Personally, I don't see that as any great loss.

 

 

I've gone so far as to offer drastic physical modifications to ANYONE who might suggest that one of our clubs' MD & scorekeeper would even THINK of doing anything improper, whether in regard to stage design/setup or match procedures (both were muliple State & Regional Champs at the time).

 

IMO - There is no such thing as a "GF-UNfriendly" stage...there are options within the category regs that specifically address split revolver scenarios.

A Gunfighter is expected to adapt accordingly.

 

I totally agreed with you until the last part. Obviously you are not a gunfighter.

 

There are scenarios that do not put gunfighters at a disadvantage and scenarios that do. Yes...we have "options", but they are only necessary on stages we cannot shoot gunfighter style. Gunfighter category yes. Gunfighter style no.

 

No gunfighter should EVER demand all scenarios be continuous pistol, but we SHOULD be able to expect to get to shoot gunfighter most of the time.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I totally agreed with you until the last part. Obviously you are not a gunfighter.

 

There are scenarios that do not put gunfighters at a disadvantage and scenarios that do. Yes...we have "options", but they are only necessary on stages we cannot shoot gunfighter style. Gunfighter category yes. Gunfighter style no.

 

No gunfighter should EVER demand all scenarios be continuous pistol, but we SHOULD be able to expect to get to shoot gunfighter most of the time.

 

That comment was a response to the following info provided by the OP in a later post:

this year 11 out of the 12 stages were gunfighter friendly. The one stage gave you the option to stage the pistols on the bar. Which is 3 feet by 6 feet. but someone still complained that it wasnt gunfighter friendly. And the funny part was that person doing the complaining wasn`t shooting gunfighter. (Didnt hear any complaints from them).

 

...and I often DO shoot Gunfighter (preferably with BP).

Please refer to post #34.

[WOGG]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. We will keep doing what we have been doing and hopefully do it better for the fine folks of this sport.

And if the sour grapes dont like it they can sit at home on there thumbs.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

That comment was a response to the following info provided by the OP in a later post:

 

 

...and I often DO shoot Gunfighter (preferably with BP).

Please refer to post #34.

 

11 of 12 would be great with all gunfighters I know. When I write the scenarios for our annual I always have 1 or 2 split pistol stages.

 

And I apologize for my prior incorrect assumption.

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

In our limited experience with large SASS events, my wife and I have discovered that the greater the experience/accomplishment level of the stage writer, the more we enjoy the match. There are fewer glitches, anomalies and P traps, and more variety, options and

'fairness' when real competitors are closely involved either in original writing or review of the stages.

We appreciate their efforts and dedication to this activity.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Next week will be my sixth year of wrting stages and acting as match director for the MI state shoot. I can safely say that the endless hours of planning,emails,phone calls,texts and general lack of sleep has been anything but a competative advantage for either my wife or I. We also post our stages online in advance. In doing so I have never been accused of having a advantage over anybody else because I wrote the stages. I'm sure it's been said or mumbled but I don't count statements that a person won't say to another persons face as legitimate.I won't preshoot or shoot through (yes a big match can be held without preshooting or shoot throughs). Overall I love having the oppurtunity to be a part of our awesome state shoot, it's worth every minute.

 

The stages last year were great...this year they look like they will be fun too!

 

Thanks for the work you do!

 

See ya next week...

 

GG

[Korupt Karl]

I would say it sounds like sour grapes....state level champs and above will rise to the top regardless. Case in point. Take Duece Stevens at range wars.....He and RJ run a hell of a match. I assume that Duece writes most of the stages if not all. He also puts the stages on the wire for all to see....several clubs will set these stages up as a warmup for the shoot. I guarantee Duece doesn't go and practice on them....doesn't have time.

 

I would bet that if a bunch were to boycott, you would have heard from every one. Why is it that Duece wins a big portion of the matches he goes to....it's not because he gets a look ahead of time....people like Duece or Colt are just that good. You should be glad that they write the stages.

 

I guarantee you that those complaining aren't a TG, or a MD or anyone who has to do all of the work. I was blessed enough to be given a chance to write the stages for the Indiana State Shoot by our Match Director and quite frankly I don't really remember them all, but they will come back as we continue to review them. The biggest concerns of a MD or a stage writer for a major shoot, is that there aren't a lot of "P" traps, that they have flow, that they are close enough while not being too close, and bottom line that everyone could shoot them regardless of skill set.

 

KK

[Madd Mike #8595]

Next week will be my sixth year of wrting stages and acting as match director for the MI state shoot. I can safely say that the endless hours of planning,emails,phone calls,texts and general lack of sleep has been anything but a competative advantage for either my wife or I. We also post our stages online in advance. In doing so I have never been accused of having a advantage over anybody else because I wrote the stages. I'm sure it's been said or mumbled but I don't count statements that a person won't say to another persons face as legitimate.

I won't preshoot or shoot through (yes a big match can be held without preshooting or shoot throughs). Overall I love having the oppurtunity to be a part of our awesome state shoot, it's worth every minute.

 

I agree totally

 

I have seen board members do an early shoot through, day before sidematch day, for official scores,

not properly dressed, some in tee shirts, shorts, etc, (cuss it was hot)

that is not honerable, no matter how hard they work

mileage always varies