WOGG Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 We just had our state match here recently. And at the dinner we put out question and comment sheets and ask the shooters to fill them out. The idea is to see in what ways we can improve the match for the next year. This year our rating was (by the shooters at the match) a 9.8 out of 10. (thank you) We get all kinds of answers. We as a board go through and read all of them and discuss them. This year someone wrote that a group of people think that the state champion should NOT write stages for the match. And if he does they will boycott the match next year. Everyone is intitled to there opinon. So my question is can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match. Nobody complains about him doing it for any other two day match or monthly matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 We just had our state match here recently. And at the dinner we put out question and comment sheets and ask the shooters to fill them out. The idea is to see in what ways we can improve the match for the next year. This year our rating was (by the shooters at the match) a 9.8 out of 10. (thank you) We get all kinds of answers. We as a board go through and read all of them and discuss them. This year someone wrote that a group of people think that the state champion should NOT write stages for the match. And if he does they will boycott the match next year. Everyone is intitled to there opinon. So my question is can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match. Nobody complains about him doing it for any other two day match or monthly matches. Hey! My honest answer is that I cannot give you "an honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stages for a state match." I do believe it is a good idea to have a few folks look at them for errors or omissions before the PM walk through. No one is perfect! If the SC balks at review, then there is a problem. Boycotting merely because a SC writes stages sounds like sour grapes. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 can someone give me a honest answer as to why the state champion should not write stagesWell, I wouldn't give you a dishonest answer about this. So, let's put that aside. Can I give you the reason someone does not want a particular good shooter to write stages? Perhaps they think that the person who won, won because they wrote the stages? Maybe even had a chance to practice the stages before the match? Well, there could always be that suspicion lingering in the back of someone's mind. I don't think it gives the stage writer that much of a "leg up" on everyone else. If the stages for the state match are pretty conventional (no tricky, unusual sweeps, no on-the-clock feats of non-shooting skills, etc), any possible advantages to knowing the stages a few weeks ahead become even more minuscule. The level of concern is probably much lower at monthly matches, since there is no plaque or buckle being handed out. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I would have no problem with it. Matter of fact we have several state, regional and national and world champs writing stages for monthlies, state and regional matches and I think they are the best. So not sure why someone would have a problem with It. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 WOW, that is a tough one. If there is even a hint that there could be an impropriety then he should bow out himself. The other side of the coin will fall against those who complain, will they step up and fill his shoes plus some?? Just as an onlooker, it has seemed to me that very frequently the better shooters from the immediate areas are the ones doing much, if not most, of the work/preparation to put on the bigger shoots and this naturally includes hands on with stage writing. Frequently these are also the guys who travel a lot to shoots and bring back the best from the rest for intro into the bigger matches. We do not get that particular complaint due to some big old ugerly guy from up NC way coming in and taking all the gold ever since I was jist a sprout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Only person that might have a gripe is the guy (girl) that came in second if he or she got out trasitioned because the top shooter wrote the stages to be more friendly to their style of shooting. Othewise probably just sour grapes. I personally like stages written by top shooters as they have been there, done that and know what the majority of shooters like. If they are willing to go to the time and trouble and hastle to do it Power to them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOGG Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 All the stages are reviewed by the board and other shooters. There all straight forward and simple stages.(KISS(Keep it simple stupid)therory). No P tramps. No one shoots them before the match. And all the shooters recive a book at registration so they can walk through the stages and review them. As far as him/her being the state champion It does not mean he/she won the match. It means he/she was the highest from that state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Only person that might have a gripe is the guy (girl) that came in second if he or she got out trasitioned because the top shooter wrote the stages to be more friendly to their style of shooting. Othewise probably just sour grapes. I personally like stages written by top shooters as they have been there, done that and know what the majority of shooters like. If they are willing to go to the time and trouble and hastle to do it Power to them! # 1..............Mink........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 As others have said, I imagine that some folks think that the stage writer would write stages to his strengths and that it would give him an advantage. Is that true? It's possible, but I've often seen the same guys who wrote the stages have train wrecks and/or get Ps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 At my home match our match director and also he is the one that writes most of the stages is a gunfighter, but I will tell you that not all of the stages are gunfighter friendly. I think for the most part the stage writers try to please all sorts. Some times gunfighters some times lefties. So again I have no problem with it. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I think Champions of all stripes writing stages is a great thing. I know I'm partial but one of the highest rated State matches we've had was a match that I wrote; I won it but not because I wrote it. It may be high minded of me but I think I would have won it anyway given the shooter make up in attendance. The secret most people don't get is it's harder to shoot a match you wrote because you've had time to sub-consciously think about it and it's easier to get tripped up. A big reason that champion written matches get good reviews is that there are usually no traps written into them to "slow those fast guys down"! Generally just straight forward fun stages. ...but that's just me. HW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I suppose that if you wanted to avoid any perception of impropriety you could have some outsider who was not going to shoot the match write the stages, and keep them sealed in a mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnal's front porch until the day of the match. Of course you would need to sequester the stage writer on a desert island with no contact to anyone who was going to shoot the match. Then, have a crew of non shooters set the steel. You would also need to wait until the shooters meeting right before the match to pass out the shooter books. No, wait, one more thing, since the posse marshals would need to do a walk thru, you couldn't allow them to shoot the match. Also, you couldn't let anyone who saw the books early, like the printer, the folks working the match, and the like shoot. I'm with Filly, I don't have a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I believe that if you go back a couple years in the Cowboy Chronicle, you will find an article written by Tex that addresses this very subject. The idea is that conscientiously or unconsciously, a person will generally write stages that favor their style. To make all fair in a 12 stage match, there should be no less than 4 stages that favor the duelist or gunfighter. There should also be 4-6 stages that favor the left handed shooter. Or at least leave the option of direction to the shooter. Making everything with foot movement left to right will cause lefties to take no less than 8-12 extra steps over the course of the match. Doesn't sound like much. But a couple years ago, there was a State match that the difference in one category between 1st place and 3rd was 0.3 seconds. That is literally one step difference over the course of the match. A good match committee will have all shooting styles represented to get the best input. Which translates to the best stages. Which translates to the best match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 You'd be darn hard pressed to find a state champion of any sort who isn't highly involved in putting on matches, from monthlies all the way up to EoT. What, we're supposed to tell those state champions "Thanks but, no thanks"? Is that "group of people" gonna step up to the plate and fill their shoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 ...however, I did refuse to preshoot the match with the rest of workers; that way I shot on a posse and plenty of people got to see me shoot it and that I hit the same fair shake as everyone else! I've always thought that keeps everything above board. HW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 If a shooter is deeply involved in hosting a state championship match, any very slight advantage he or she might have writing stages would be offset by all the extra work involved in setting up and running the match. Some folks will complain no matter what happens at a match. Next the same person will complain that a match director can not compete in his match. If that should occur, it would be the end of our volunteer system. Stage writing needs to be done by very competent folks or the match can end up as a disaster. Usually the better shooters write the best stages, especially for a major match. The match director must take overall responsibility for the stages no matter who writes them. Sometimes this leads to personal conflicts as stage writers might not want any changes to their stages by the match director, but in the end it has to be a match director's call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I believe that if you go back a couple years in the Cowboy Chronicle, you will find an article written by Tex that addresses this very subject. The idea is that conscientiously or unconsciously, a person will generally write stages that favor their style. To make all fair in a 12 stage match, there should be no less than 4 stages that favor the duelist or gunfighter. There should also be 4-6 stages that favor the left handed shooter. Or at least leave the option of direction to the shooter. Making everything with foot movement left to right will cause lefties to take no less than 8-12 extra steps over the course of the match. Doesn't sound like much. But a couple years ago, there was a State match that the difference in one category between 1st place and 3rd was 0.3 seconds. That is literally one step difference over the course of the match. A good match committee will have all shooting styles represented to get the best input. Which translates to the best stages. Which translates to the best match. Hi BMB, I remember that article and took it, like anything Tex writes, with a "grain of salt." Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOGG Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 I base all stages that I write off the average shooter (The majority). Not the fast shooters and not the slower shooters but the middle of the pack. And I understand that your not gonna please everyone in every catagory. this year 11 out of the 12 stages were gunfighter friendly. The one stage gave you the option to stage the pistols on the bar. Which is 3 feet by 6 feet. but someone still complained that it wasnt gunfighter friendly. And the funny part was that person doing the complaining wasn`t shooting gunfighter. (Didnt hear any complaints from them). And half the stages were left hand friendly and a right handed shooter complained that there weren`t enough left hand friendly stages. Now if someone asks for my honest opinon they best beware what they asked for. Those who know me will tell you That i will give it to you. But some times someone says something and it gets me to thinking and asking some questions of others. before I give my honest opinon. Its like when one man complained that a couple of stages at our first state match weren`t duelist friendly. So I asked him exactly what in sam #%&& duelist friendly meant. He paused and got a blank look on his face and said he didn`t know. The excusses are Pleanty. The answers are few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I write many of the stages for our local club and try to have a variety of stages from "stand and blast" to some set up some strategy on how to shoot it to some involving some with moving targets. I post the stages on our website several days in advance and request people read them in advance and give feedback on any problems or other suggestions. This also gives those who choose to a chance to work out how they want to shoot each stage. Some specifically choose not to read them and others print them out and make advance plans. Since I write the stages I have an advantage of thinking the more complicated ones out to be sure they are understood etc. This definitely gives me an advantage over those who are just hearing the details before the stage begins. In those cases as I read the stage I point out ways I feel are better to shoot the it. Sage Creek Gus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 ... This year someone wrote that a group of people think that the state champion should NOT write stages for the match. And if he does they will boycott the match next year. ... Personally, I don't see that as any great loss. I've gone so far as to offer drastic physical modifications to ANYONE who might suggest that one of our clubs' MD & scorekeeper would even THINK of doing anything improper, whether in regard to stage design/setup or match procedures (both were muliple State & Regional Champs at the time). IMO - There is no such thing as a "GF-UNfriendly" stage...there are options within the category regs that specifically address split revolver scenarios. A Gunfighter is expected to adapt accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Amen PWB! Those who are thinking the match organizers, Champions or not, have the advantage over them because they knew the stages need to go out and practice some more before flapping their jaws! HW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 We just had our state match here recently. And at the dinner we put out question and comment sheets and ask the shooters to fill them out. The idea is to see in what ways we can improve the match for the next year. This year our rating was (by the shooters at the match) a 9.8 out of 10. I commend you and your clubs initiative in putting this kind of questionnaire out, it says that you care about the shooters that attend. Many clubs, never even look at their total "Ps", year after year, take no comments,and get upset if you do bring a suggestion up, then wonder why attendance drops off. As to Top Shooter writing stages, matches, an advantage? Naw! Sometimes its a disadvantage since your trying to accommodate all the shooters and styles. Which may not be yours, I know. Matches I write, are sometimes my worse for myself. Also you write you have your committee go over the stages, so I'm sure changes are made throughout. Just remember, you can't please em all, and there's always going to be sour-grapes. Also your rating of 9.8 out of 10 is great. Seems the .2% are sore losers. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Personally, I don't see that as any great loss. The first thing I typed out said basically that but in a VERY blunt way. I delted it. Thank you PWB for expressing my feelings in a kinder, gentler way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'm with Pale Wolf all the way on this one. I write most stages at our club and it isn't always easy, anyone who complains gets asked to write some for the next shoot. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Hey Wogg, good to here from ya. You know as well as anyone that you are NEVER gonna please everyone. I know as well as anyone that you give it one heck of a try. As far as the SC writing stages - who else is gonna do it? Who else has traveled to away shoots enough to see things that are fun, different than the run of the mill stuff at a lot of monthlies, yet do-able by pretty much all the shooters without being a brain quiz or P-trap marathon? Most of the time the SC has been shooting a while, has experienced the "flavor" of matches away from their home club and generally is dedicated to the sport (often almost to the point of obsession) I say let the complainers write the stages for a few monthlies and see how things work out. As far as the MD not shooting in their state match, at ours last year, CBJ, felt it appropriate to remove himself from the competition to head off any sense of impropriety before someone could bring it up. He put in a ton of hours, directed a large and diverse team of workers, set steel, handled match day stuff and never put a round downrange in the main match. Was it possible that knowing all he knew he could have won the match? Of course! but coming in cold without all that other stuff on his mind I think his chances would have been even better!!! I say if a MD can win a match after taking care of all the stuff they deal with - good for them! Regards Gateway Kid BTW next year for sure I am coming up there to share some more good times with ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 If that person is doing a good job writeing the stages. And shooters seem to like them. The board gives them the OK. And it's just one person that seems to have a unfounded problem. Then if they don't want to come shoot it. Oh well. There loss. I would not worry to much about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 9.8 out of 10!!! Congrats ~ great job. Too bad the other fella might boycott and miss the party. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I have always said: "If anyone believes that writing the stages... going over the stages numerous times to ensure they are correct... hauling 12 bays of steel, facades, decorations, tables, water, ice and paint from the storage to the bays... attending numerous board meetings to ensure that every detail is taken care of... stressing about the last minute changes, balanced posse assignments, emergency services and posse marshall walkthroughs... overseeing side matches, mini matches and RV parking... If anyone thinks that doing all that will somehow give me an advantage shooting the match - I am generously willing to share this opportunity with them." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOGG Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thank you for all your answers to my question. And Gateway Kid Would you tell blackjack that I`m coming back to shoot your state match and he better be shooting with me or I`ll drag his big ugly mug outback and give him my whatfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOGG Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Hey Creeker Do you really do all that? I thought we were supose to show up and that would all be taken care of by the whinners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 IMO - There is no such thing as a "GF-UNfriendly" stage...there are options within the category regs that specifically address split revolver scenarios. A Gunfighter is expected to adapt accordingly. PWB - within the Gunfighter category, you are 100% correct. The only time that Gunfighter "Unfriendly" comes into play is when a Gunfighter is comparing scores overall. The split pistol scenarios should not affect anyones standing within the Gunfighter category as they are all shooting under the same guidelines. But a Gunfighter that "Might" be in the running for overall or State Champion can be taken out of the running by an abundance of split pistols - effectively making the Gunfighter category a Duelist category for X% of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 The only problem that I could see is if the stage writer was a left handed, 97 shooting, duelist and all of the stages contained moving right to left with the rifle, three shotgun targets, and split pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Hey Creeker Do you really do all that? I thought we were supose to show up and that would all be taken care of by the whinners. Without the guys and girls in EVERY single club that are willing to bust their behinds, the whinners would just show up and have to dump their rounds into the berm. A big thank you to all the folks that give up their vacation days to set steel, give up their evenings to attend meetings and write stages and even after they realize the pay sucks and the accolades are few - still show up the next month to do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 PWB - within the Gunfighter category, you are 100% correct. The only time that Gunfighter "Unfriendly" comes into play is when a Gunfighter is comparing scores overall. The split pistol scenarios should not affect anyones standing within the Gunfighter category as they are all shooting under the same guidelines. But a Gunfighter that "Might" be in the running for overall or State Champion can be taken out of the running by an abundance of split pistols - effectively making the Gunfighter category a Duelist category for X% of the match. There's a difference between a "GF-UNfriendly" STAGE and a "GF-UNfriendly" MATCH. If that's the case, I'll often switch to an Age-Based category (if not shooting BP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I have always said: "If anyone believes that writing the stages... going over the stages numerous times to ensure they are correct... hauling 12 bays of steel, facades, decorations, tables, water, ice and paint from the storage to the bays... attending numerous board meetings to ensure that every detail is taken care of... stressing about the last minute changes, balanced posse assignments, emergency services and posse marshall walkthroughs... overseeing side matches, mini matches and RV parking... If anyone thinks that doing all that will somehow give me an advantage shooting the match - I am generously willing to share this opportunity with them." **DING** **DING** **DING** We have a WINNER!!! What's this, twice in the same year you and I have been in 100% agreement? Starting to get scary around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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