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Smaller targets with less speed !


Rooster Ron Wayne

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

 

I wonted to see if we can get people talking .

And it did !

 

I would like to see some stages with some more bonus targets.

I don't care how fast some one can shoot the big target 12 feet away.

 

I love shooting with the guys at our locale clubs

It just seems like the hole thing is set up to go as fast as you can.

 

I have more time in two or three stages then some have for a hole day !

I started shooting Gun Fighter and Josie Wales to challenge my self.

I am not fast and never will be .

 

I do try to shoot as fast as I can.

I have picked up some speed learning transitions .

 

I will never be a Deuce Stevens or a Doc Noper or Ketchem Quick. ( This guys are dam good )

I will say if you ask, Every one of them will give you pointers to speed up your game .

 

I love the stages we have some times with the poppers.

I would like to see some small bonus targets further out .

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No your not alone, but this is pretty much a pointless question. SASS is SASS, it has gone down hill in some ways since the "old days" but its never going to go back. Honestly, if you want something a bit more like SASS was, start shooting Wild Bunch. Asking questions like this on the wire just spins folks up (wait and see!) and does not do much good (believe me, I know cause I and many others have said the same thing you are saying on the wire to no avail). After a while, you just let it go and find a way to make SASS OK, abandon it, or you move on to other shooting sports (as many, many people have over the years).

 

Try WB, I think you will like it.

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Annnnnd we're off! :lol:

 

Speaking of horse racing... I see that there is some smoke in Colorado this week. Hope all our friends are in the clear.

 

Olen

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One of the local clubs held an "old time/remember when/way back" match about three years back, and...

 

... it didn't go over well AT ALL. Some of the shooters said they'd never come back and shoot there again because of the small targets and longer shooting distance. :blink:

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Careful, I brought this up and was soundly trounced and run out of town on a rail.....

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Rooster, volunteer to be the stage writer for your club and write the scenarios up this way. Bet ya be looking for a new place to shoot in a couple of months, as nobody will be showing up to shoot.

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One of the local clubs held an "old time/remember when/way back" match about three years back, and...

 

... it didn't go over well AT ALL. Some of the shooters said they'd never come back and shoot there again because of the small targets and longer shooting distance. :blink:

 

 

Well, you can't please all the people all the time. It sometimes amazes me how little SASS folks are willing to go outside their narrow comfort zone. If targets are not super easy, they get all bent out of shape. Its like grade inflation, where we dumb down the tests so kids can pass and not "feel bad" about themselves. What passes for difficulty in many SASS matches is remembering if its a Lawrence Welk or a Nevada sweep.

 

I remember I shot a side pot rifle match with a 10 inch target at 50 yards; a pure speed thing, most hits fastest. I actually heard one guy tell another that it was not fair because the 38s in his 1873 wold not go 50 yards! Ah well, I guess he had never tried it.

 

So my questions is this, did other folks have a good time at this match? If they did, why focus on what the whiners had to say? Its sounds like it was a one time thing, just to do something different and remind folks how far SASS has come. Whats the big deal? Try something new (or in this case old), it might make you a better shooter.

 

Besides, God hates a whiner.

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Run a few matches using small and far targets and your attendance will drop like a lead fishing sinker. You are not alone in your thinking, but you are in a distinct minority.

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If you hunt for it, I bet you can find a club with smaller, further targets to shoot at.

 

Or if you just want more of a challenge, shoot all the targets in the 'head'.

 

Or paint a 4" circle on all the targets and tell the spotters to give you misses for all the shots outside the circle.

 

Or start your own club and do what you want.

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

 

I'm for the most part with ya on this one.

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If you hunt for it, I bet you can find a club with smaller, further targets to shoot at.

 

Or if you just want more of a challenge, shoot all the targets in the 'head'.

 

Or paint a 4" circle on all the targets and tell the spotters to give you misses for all the shots outside the circle.

 

Or start your own club and do what you want.

I know of a couple

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

I have been in SASS for 11+ yrs now and a TG for most all of that time. I ain't no expert, but I write a fair amount of stages. And I build a tons of targets and some props.

 

And I actually like some (but not all) smaller targets mixed in with big ones.

 

But reality is that you will probably lose some (but not all) shooters if you make smaller or distant targets, if there is another club shooting on your match day.

 

It comes down to dollars and distance, I reckon.

 

Just my view,

Mustang Gregg

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I think a "vintage side match" with lever action .30-30's, .38-55's, et al, along with a single revolver and a shotgun would be kind of fun, especially if the T/O is armed with a stop watch with the shooter yelling "STOP" and "GO" when reloading his lever gun. :lol:

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I think alot of you are missing some important variables that has enhanced the growth of SASS and CAS.....MOMA and the KIDS.

 

If you want SASS and your local club to be just a few 'good ole boys' shooting their Cowboy guns at small and far targets, you'll likely have a couple join ya. But MOM and little Johnny ain't gona be interested much. They'll be at the pool on Saturdays and Sundays.

 

And when MOM would rather go on vacation where there IS NOT a Cowboy match, odds are you will be going on vacation where there is not a Cowboy match in town.

 

If you take a large segment of active shooters out of the equation, then vendor participation goes away. Take vendors away and new guns and supplies start to become more scarce.

 

It would spiral downward to a point that even some of the 'good ole boys' wouldn't be able to find suitable parts or a good 'cowboy' gunsmith to work on your guns.

 

I'm sure that in the 'Good Ole Days', shooting the far and small targets was fun. But admit it or not, getting up on Saturday morning just to ride a stick pony around an ole wagon wasn't what built this game. It was the Dinging of targets and allowing shooters to show skills with old guns that alot of folks deemed impossible.

 

There are things about 'the good ole days' that I cherish as well as most of you. I'm 61 yrs old.

 

But this game has evolved into a growing 'entertainment' segment of our lives. And I strongly believe the 'hitable' targets with 'resonable speeds' has been a big part of its growth in recent years.

 

From sitting atop my old grey mare, thats the view from this ole Pard.

 

 

..........Widder

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

 

Ya. That's how come NCOWS draws all those big numbers that SASS don't. :wacko::blink:

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From what I've seen from tha days of small an far ta now is, A 14 sec shooter turns into a 20 sec shooter. A 20 sec shooter turns into a 28 sec shooter. A 30 sec shooter turns into a 45sec shooter, if ye git my drift.

 

Same ones place in tha same places OA except tha further one looks down tha line of placement the worse tha scores start to look.

 

 

10-13 years ago if a match could get 10% clean they were considered a great match. Now with targets closer the % is much greater===== more smiles farther down tha list======they come back to tha next match at that range.

 

 

RRR

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From what I've seen from tha days of small an far ta now is, A 14 sec shooter turns into a 20 sec shooter. A 20 sec shooter turns into a 28 sec shooter. A 30 sec shooter turns into a 45sec shooter, if ye git my drift.

 

Same ones place in tha same places OA except tha further one looks down tha line of placement the worse tha scores start to look.

 

 

10-13 years ago if a match could get 10% clean they were considered a great match. Now with targets closer the % is much greater===== more smiles farther down tha list======they come back to tha next match at that range.

 

 

RRR

 

 

RRR,

You nailed it, but I must say the % of clean shooters really hasn't increased a whole bunch, since targets are larger and closer people try to shoot above their confort level and miss, if you still have a range of 10 to 15% clean that is a good match.

 

KK

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A long time cowboy gun smith gave me a copy of the 1st Mule Camp stages from 1996. Being the match director at Cherokee, I thought it would be kind of neat to use some of the stages from the past. Holy Cow!!! There wasn't a single stage I could use. Start laying under the wagon on your back, reload the pistol with 5 rounds, start sitting on the ground with the rifle across your lap. You were required to say certain lines during the stage in between shooting the guns. Most of the stages only required 1 pistol and either a rifle or shotgun. None of them required all 4 guns. Things have certainly changed.

 

While these old Mule Camp stages sound like a lot of fun to me, many of our cowboys would have problems rolling around under a wagon shooting guns. Like all successful businesses, SASS has evolved into what it is today because it has listened to its customer base.

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RRR,

You nailed it, but I must say the % of clean shooters really hasn't increased a whole bunch, since targets are larger and closer people try to shoot above their confort level and miss, if you still have a range of 10 to 15% clean that is a good match.

 

KK

 

This is a side bar from the original post (for which I am sorry), but when did clean matches become important? I can't remember anyone really paying that much attention to it back "in the day," other than having more misses made it harder to win. These days, they announce who had a clean match like that actually matters. With the targets the way they are, anyone can have a clean match if you go slow enough, so whats the big deal? Is it some kind of consolation prise? "I finished dead last, but I did it Clean!?"

 

I only really care where I finished in the standings. Fast and messy will beat slow and tidy almost every time. The one you gotta watch out for is the guy who shoots fast and tidy, that guy is hard to beat!

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It sometimes amazes me how little SASS folks are willing to go outside their narrow comfort zone.

Not really any different than the majority of the people on the planet.

 

While these old Mule Camp stages sound like a lot of fun to me, many of our cowboys would have problems rolling around under a wagon shooting guns. Like all successful businesses, SASS has evolved into what it is today because it has listened to its customer base.

That's pretty much it. It is what it is.

 

Now if somebody set up a yearly match based on a Lot of action like that, there would probably be a fair turn out. Not huge, but fair. I know I'd go. My comfort zone is pretty big. :lol:

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Read these responses.... Did I lie to you??????????

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Not really any different than the majority of the people on the planet.

 

 

Yeah, you are probably right Bob. I just thought that SASS folks would have bigger comfort zone for trying thing different than most folks. After all, they have all chosen to dress up funny in public.

 

Oh well, we all take from SASS what we put in it and we are free to leave if we don't like it. Besides, many local clubs offer a good deal of flexibility. There is room for all. And, as I said in response to the original post, Wild Bunch seems to offer some more challenging shooting. But, if history is any guide, that will slowly go south as well. Enjoy it while you can.

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

 

Hope ya got yer flameproof britches on there, pard! Please don't take none of what you see in this her thread personal, it's all nothing more'n a discussion around the campfire...so to speak.

 

Have ya BEEN to an IDPA or USPSA match lately? That there is a whole different cat than SASS!! While there may be some similarities and that there, depends on the person LOOKIN if'n you know what I mean, the one thing that sticks out to me is you don't see the GOOD PARDS in them 'other' sports not to mention the family thing. Not saying there ain't families or good people that shoot them 'other' sports just saying the SASS folks...well I bet most of ya get where I'm coming from. (there's a reason I've not gone back to them other sports.)

 

Yeah, I hanker for the old days too...

Rotary dial phones

Pay phones

No (or hardly any) drive-ups

No internet

Back when 7-11 MEANT that (just try finding a store open at one AM when ya NEEDED it back then)

Mebbe there's some things that look good now that didn't back then, mostly people DO get 'nostalgic' about 'the ol' days but the fact is, the world changes and advances every day. Those of us still here have to adapt or find ourselves overtaken by events...like the dinosaur or companies who made buggy whips. Now, I betcha there were a few back when that made a heck of a buggy whip, maybe the best dang buggy whip in the whold dang world and I s'ppose there's maybe a small market for'em still but...

 

I think alot of you are missing some important variables that has enhanced the growth of SASS and CAS.....MOMA and the KIDS.

 

If you want SASS and your local club to be just a few 'good ole boys' shooting their Cowboy guns at small and far targets, you'll likely have a couple join ya. But MOM and little Johnny ain't gona be interested much. They'll be at the pool on Saturdays and Sundays.

 

And when MOM would rather go on vacation where there IS NOT a Cowboy match, odds are you will be going on vacation where there is not a Cowboy match in town.

 

If you take a large segment of active shooters out of the equation, then vendor participation goes away. Take vendors away and new guns and supplies start to become more scarce.

 

It would spiral downward to a point that even some of the 'good ole boys' wouldn't be able to find suitable parts or a good 'cowboy' gunsmith to work on your guns.

 

I'm sure that in the 'Good Ole Days', shooting the far and small targets was fun. But admit it or not, getting up on Saturday morning just to ride a stick pony around an ole wagon wasn't what built this game. It was the Dinging of targets and allowing shooters to show skills with old guns that alot of folks deemed impossible.

 

There are things about 'the good ole days' that I cherish as well as most of you. I'm 61 yrs old.

 

But this game has evolved into a growing 'entertainment' segment of our lives. And I strongly believe the 'hitable' targets with 'resonable speeds' has been a big part of its growth in recent years.

 

From sitting atop my old grey mare, thats the view from this ole Pard.

 

 

..........Widder

 

Doggone Widder, for a gunfighter you are certainly well spoken!!! :D

 

Ya. That's how come NCOWS draws all those big numbers that SASS don't. :wacko::blink:

 

 

Yep.

NCOWS Small and far. Stock guns. Regional had 33 shooters.

Same area SASS regional had 400.

Yep. SASS has it wrong.

 

Hmm, ain't never been to no NCOWS match, don't know of any clubs round there parts so I can't speak to it personally...but I'll take yer word for it.

 

However it do appear to me, you have two similar but distinctly different sports; SASS and NCOWS. One is growing by leaps and bounds; mostly, clubs and some particular matches draw more and more every year. That 'other one' is kinda small, don't seem to be growing a'tall BUT, they have members who are just as passionate about 'their' sport as some are about the others. Look at Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, IDPA, USPSA, benchrest, hi-power rifle, BPCR, silhouette and a number of others; they also have their devotees. Mebbe they laugh at 'our' sport and by that I'm talking about SASS. Not the SASS you remember or the SASS you would like it to be but the SASS that IS. Seems to me its working just fine.

 

Shooting teeny far away targets all the time, saying stupid lines, playing with stick ponies ALL THE TIME, chucking rubber tommyhawks ALL THE TIME gets just as boring as shooting big really close targets ALL THE TIME. Most matches I go to feature things in moderation and may include all of the above but would I want to go back to SASS of yesteryear where the guns were not so plentiful, the targets not so variety-ous and the stages...boring? NOPE!

 

Do I get tired of shooting 'nevada sweep this, nevada sweep that or 2-1-2 in endless, boring monotonous litany? Yep and I don't go to clubs that do that. Would the wife want to shoot them teeny far away targets whilst riding on an electric horse? Maybe here and there but the club that 'goes back to yesteryear', if that sort of shooting is all they do, wouldn't you know if I went the wife would stay home? No, I got to say that whatever SASS has got it's working and I wouldn't change a thing.

 

You got a beef with a pard who shoots tricked out guns and beats ya? Well, go get you a set of them tricky-dick guns and COMPETE. Can't afford to? Wellll, git you a set of good iron, PRACTICE and I bet you'll find that works too! Guns don't make no nevermind, it's the nut behind the trigger that makes the difference, not the gun.

 

You like them little far away targets? Mebbe in your neck of the woods EVER-body likes them too. Well then there ya go! Shoot and have fun. On the other hand, I bet you find that SASS, as we know it today is made up of a lot of very DIVERSE people; men, women, kids and people of all ages from 12-80+ and THEY have certain expectations. You can't please'em all (even with BIG, CLOSE nevada sweep this and that bland stages) but if you can appeal to the WIDEST group with your stages and such, you'll get shooters. Go too far one way or the other and....

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I only really care where I finished in the standings. Fast and messy will beat slow and tidy almost every time. The one you gotta watch out for is the guy who shoots fast and tidy, that guy is hard to beat!

 

 

Have ya eva looked at a car door target? 90% of tha hits are in tha 14" center. I don't know a fast guy who ain't tidy an wins with any regulairty (SP?)

 

 

RRR

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This is a side bar from the original post (for which I am sorry), but when did clean matches become important? I can't remember anyone really paying that much attention to it back "in the day," other than having more misses made it harder to win. These days, they announce who had a clean match like that actually matters. With the targets the way they are, anyone can have a clean match if you go slow enough, so whats the big deal? Is it some kind of consolation prise? "I finished dead last, but I did it Clean!?"

 

I only really care where I finished in the standings. Fast and messy will beat slow and tidy almost every time. The one you gotta watch out for is the guy who shoots fast and tidy, that guy is hard to beat!

 

Being an entertainment activity for which participants are expected to pay to participate, a clean match is all some people are able to achieve. To shoot fast and clean is something we all aspire to do, and many can do one or the other but seldom both. :unsure:

 

In a real world situation, clean would certainly be more important than fast. :rolleyes:

 

In the real world of customer satisfaction, more happy shooters is certainly more important than a few who long for yesteryear. ;)

 

I like a little of all of it for myself, but having been in on the business end of quite a few matches, when you make your largest number of customers the most happy you find that your repeat customer list grows much faster. B)

 

When the majority of shooters, (your customer base) demand smaller targets and greater distances, those who continue to have successful matches will meet those demands. :o

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Several years back there was a club hosted an Annual match that was unique. The 1st stage had so many KDs, small targets, set way out. Also a bonus beginning shot off the clock, (of course shooters took their time aiming for this bonus). After 45 minutes of the 1st posse shooting this stage, re-setting all the KDs, only 3 shooters had completed the stage. The MD stopped by to see progress, etc. The stage ended being taken out.

In reality, it was a fun stage, and unique, but between the shooter taking their time for the bonus shot off the clock, and resetting shotgun, pistol, and rifle targets, many small, it turned into a disaster.

Shooters of all talents come to a match to have fun, be entertained, and hear the sound of steel being hit. Fast or slow, it makes em feel good, and the clubs that have close and large, are the ones most attended and popular. MT

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Yeah, you are probably right Bob. I just thought that SASS folks would have bigger comfort zone for trying thing different than most folks. After all, they have all chosen to dress up funny in public.

 

Oh well, we all take from SASS what we put in it and we are free to leave if we don't like it. Besides, many local clubs offer a good deal of flexibility. There is room for all. And, as I said in response to the original post, Wild Bunch seems to offer some more challenging shooting. But, if history is any guide, that will slowly go south as well. Enjoy it while you can.

Well, I had alot of Wild Bunch rig orders the last couple of years...none in the last 6 months! Everyone who shoots it already has the gear.

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

I think you need to read the rule book on target size and recommended distances. The sport is all about speed because we use a timer. When do you think the sport changed. I have been shooting it for about 10 years and it doesn't appear to have changed in that time period except for a rare club here or there.

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