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Shotgun Bandit

Rank points at there worst

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First let me say I do not have a Dog in this hunt .......Purely an observation.......

In 49er Category....

 

Long Swede 10th place............Time 275.73..............Rank points 770

 

FJT 2nd place............Time 276.11............Rank points 469

 

Just because a shooter has 1 bad stage (over 500 rank points) he winds up # 10 even though he beat 9 of the shooters ahead of him. That is soooooo Wrong.

 

FJT I aint picken on ya ..........Bandit ( what got his nomex drawers on)

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I agree, most all matches here is AZ are scored based on total time. IMHO there is no need to continue the use of rank points. Rest in peace Coyote Calhoun, but when your argument goes to "we've always done it that way" it's time for rank points to go!

 

TB

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[Rank points are totally wrong SASS should do way with them! Look at the scores around 623 and tell me with a streath face that is right!!!

 

Gardner kid

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Howdy pards:

 

Saying my two cents also.

 

Rank Points need to be thrown out period. Been shooting many years and have to agree with Turq. Bill and all others about this subject.

 

Get rid of them.

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I will say this is the worst example I have seen, moving 8 spots in a large category such as 49er is a lot. I have seen shoots that do rank points within categories which turn out even worse situations, like folks not even shooting stages ahead of others. I wonder if something like this is enough to make the Wild Bunch reconsider.

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And RANK Points can have an even bigger influence on the slower more Challenging to shoot Classes ...

 

Why should the Mass that don't even shoot your class deside the out come of your class/Cat...

 

Rank Points are pure Baloney...

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Dont like it but dont understand it,So can say much.I just think that if you shoot all the stages in the shortest time you should win.I will never be fast so it will never effect me ,but dont like the rank points.

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Bandit,

 

I agree 100%! I just wish there was something we could do about it. Alas, the Wild Bunch will not allow a change at WR or EOT.

 

I'm sure FJT wouldn't take offence. Heck he'd probably agree.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Well Then a boycot of WR and ET .................................

 

 

Bet things would change ,,,,,,Fast ...

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Topic comes up every year and the outcome is always the same.

In spite of all the howls of protest on The Wire, rank scoring won't go away.

It's going to take action from people further up the food chain ( RO's or TG's ?) to effect the change.

 

I've always found the concept somewhat confusing. How somebody can turn in high times or a DNF and still win is baffling at best.

 

Reminds of a comment I made at a staff meeting many years ago: "We do a lot of stupid things around here because that's the way we've always done them".

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Topic comes up every year and the outcome is always the same.

In spite of all the howls of protest on The Wire, rank scoring won't go away.

It's going to take action from people further up the food chain ( RO's or TG's ?) to effect the change.

 

I've always found the concept somewhat confusing. How somebody can turn in high times or a DNF and still win is baffling at best.

 

Reminds of a comment I made at a staff meeting many years ago: "We do a lot of stupid things around here because that's the way we've always done them".

Woodrow,

 

The Wild Bunch is the entity keeping Rank Points in place. A change has been proposed as a Summit Agenda item. I read the proposal. It was well thought out and reasons for the change were provided in detail. The WB refused to allow it on the agenda.

 

About DNFs, at the summit this year, the following item passed. "Should scoring be changed so that any shooter who does not finish TWO or more stages in a match is not eligible for any main match awards."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Knowing Long Swede and FJT, I imagine that the only place that really counted in the grand scheme of things was First Place. It's nice to finish in the Top 10, but first is what everyone wants.

 

Uhhh...what was the question?

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Yup, rank isn't perfect.

 

But to clarify, on one stage Long Swede had a lot of problems and 544 shooters beat him. And that is significant isn't it?

 

That is what rank scoring is emphasizing - how many shooters did the individual beat during the match. FJT beat out a couple hundred more shooters than Long Swede did.

 

As an analogy, think of scoring football not according to touchdowns and field goals, but by total yards offense. Similarly, in baseball, don't use the number of players that cross home plate, use the total number of hits to determine who won. Total time is closer to using that method while rank scoring is more similar to the existing method for scoring baseball and football.

 

Using total offensive yards for football or total hits for baseball could be a valid way to score, but it would change the game. Similarly, I "play the game" a little differently for a total time match than I do for a rank scored match.

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IMO rank points are fine for determining overall match placement.

 

BUT, category placement shouldn't be effected by everyone in the match, it should only be effected by those in the category. So category placement should be done either by total time, or by category rank scoring.

 

All scoring is done by computer, it would be easy enough to assign a match rank and a category rank for each shooter for each stage.

 

That's the view from my saddle.

 

Grizz

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This is unfortunately a continuing example of why SASS/CAS should become a .org. And not a .com.

It would allow the free and open debate and democratic resolution of controversial things.

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That analogy may be the single smartest analogy that I've read in these pages about the difference in Rank Time and Total Time scoring. We've all seen teams 'outplayed' in the stats but beaten on the scoreboard. If each stage is thought of as a 'separate' gunfight, then there are 12 gunfights/battles rather than 1 single running war.

 

hmmmmmm...............

 

Well Then a boycot of WR and ET .................................

Bet things would change ,,,,,,Fast ...

Jabez Cowboy

The only thing that would change is that you'd stay home by yourself watching TV. Do you think an "Occupy" style movement is going to happen around RP scoring?

It's a game. Those are the rules. Ain't gonna change...

Suck it up and do your best to reject delusional thinking.

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:FlagAm:

:rolleyes:

Well here I go again. Thank goodness for freedom of speech!

 

Allie, the Wild Bunch, in my opinion, will not allow the change at WR & EOT and just flat dump them, is because they are out of touch with the feelings of the members and reality.

Crosscut Jack

 

Bandit,

 

I agree 100%! I just wish there was something we could do about it. Alas, the Wild Bunch will not allow a change at WR or EOT.

 

Allie Mo

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Yup, rank isn't perfect.

As an analogy, think of scoring football not according to touchdowns and field goals, but by total yards offense. Similarly, in baseball, don't use the number of players that cross home plate, use the total number of hits to determine who won. Total time is closer to using that method while rank scoring is more similar to the existing method for scoring baseball and football.

 

yep, one of the best analogies i've seen.

 

 

That analogy may be the single smartest analogy that I've read in these pages about the difference in Rank Time and Total Time scoring. We've all seen teams 'outplayed' in the stats but beaten on the scoreboard. If each stage is thought of as a 'separate' gunfight, then there are 12 gunfights/battles rather than 1 single running war.

 

hmmmmmm...............

 

 

The only thing that would change is that you'd stay home by yourself watching TV. Do you think an "Occupy" style movement is going to happen around RP scoring?

It's a game. Those are the rules. Ain't gonna change...

Suck it up and do your best to reject delusional thinking.

well said BK. it was nice to finally meet ya and shake your hand. sorry the wind took you for a ride.

CC

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Yup, rank isn't perfect.

 

But to clarify, on one stage Long Swede had a lot of problems and 544 shooters beat him. And that is significant isn't it?

 

That is what rank scoring is emphasizing - how many shooters did the individual beat during the match. FJT beat out a couple hundred more shooters than Long Swede did.

 

As an analogy, think of scoring football not according to touchdowns and field goals, but by total yards offense. Similarly, in baseball, don't use the number of players that cross home plate, use the total number of hits to determine who won. Total time is closer to using that method while rank scoring is more similar to the existing method for scoring baseball and football.

 

Using total offensive yards for football or total hits for baseball could be a valid way to score, but it would change the game. Similarly, I "play the game" a little differently for a total time match than I do for a rank scored match.

Your analogy is incorrect. Rank Point scoring uses stage place to determine overall placement. It is a timed event, therefore time should be the deciding factor. In a RP match, time only determines placement on each individual stage. This is the weak point of a RP match. One bad stage (I.e. Long Swede being beaten by 500 plus shooters on a SINGLE stage) causes a huge difference in overall placement. In a Total Time match ("TT"), the participant can overcome one bad stage by superior performances on the rest of the stages. RP scoring is further diluted by having non-category participants determine overall outcome. TT eliminates that dilution. After all, we time stages for a reason, don't we? Why not use time as the sole deciding factor?

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For EOT 2012, SASS is making a big deal of doing what the customers/shooters want. This area would be a good place to make a change.

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Winter Range is a rank point match. Total time is not how it was scored, therefore, is irrelevant. All participants knew going into the match that it was rank point scored.

 

Do they score football by yards gained?

Baseball by hits?

 

No. If they did the results of many games would be different.

 

I don't care how a match is scored.

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Your analogy is incorrect. TT eliminates that dilution. After all, we time stages for a reason, don't we? Why not use time as the sole deciding factor?

In your analysis IRT, a shooter with a single SDQ (999.99) would be out for the whole match. SDQ one stage and you might as well slam the trunk?

 

RP can be horrid for shooters in classes like Classic Cowboy where middle of the pack RP's can be huge. For example a miss at the 30-40 sec range can add 200-500 RP's whereas a miss in the raw time 15-20 sec range may be only 10-20 RP's. Yes, this is inherently unfair. However, so is judging a timed event as a single 1 war occurance.

 

In golf match play vs. stroke play is often discussed. Match play being the win/loss of each individual hole vs. the total strokes in an 18 hole match.

 

I'm not arguing in favor of one over the other. We've all done it here ad nauseum, but observing the differences in each method makes the exercise interesting. And, yes, if I was Long Swede I'd be a bit bummed, but as Manatee observed: the buckle is the same from 2nd to 10th.

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IMO rank points are fine for determining overall match placement.

 

BUT, category placement shouldn't be effected by everyone in the match, it should only be effected by those in the category. So category placement should be done either by total time, or by category rank scoring.

 

All scoring is done by computer, it would be easy enough to assign a match rank and a category rank for each shooter for each stage.

 

That's the view from my saddle.

 

Grizz

This has been my position for a while. If we must have rank points then run them by category. a simple formula change would also give you the top shooter overall.

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The football/ baseball analogy is a bit flawed. To win you have to score the most points not win the greatest number of quarters or innings which is most similar to rank scoring.

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Winter Range is a rank point match. Total time is not how it was scored, therefore, is irrelevant. All participants knew going into the match that it was rank point scored.

 

Do they score football by yards gained?

Baseball by hits?

 

No. If they did the results of many games would be different.

 

I don't care how a match is scored.

 

I agree,

 

The football/baseball analogy says it all. It is getting the ball over the goal line or runners to home base that counts.

 

Vote with your feet.

 

Whom ever said 2nd place- 1oth place buckles are all the same is right on. So when you see one of those buckles, just image there are 300 other ones just like it for that year. Then multiply that by how ever many years WR/EOT or others have been running.

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Whom ever said 2nd place- 1oth place buckles are all the same is right on.

 

 

But I LIKE my buckle. :(

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Guest Texas Jack Black

Let me see now You join an organization read the rule book pay dues and then whine and cry about the rules YUP!! ;)

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Total Time Scoring vs. Rank Point Scoring is the result of Game Preference !

 

 

 

 

Which Game does one prefer to play ? A Match of continuous competition or a Match which is series of discrete competitions? Baseball is continuous competition, runs are accumulated over 9 innings. Tennis is a series of discrete competitions - called Sets. A Player can win the Match, 3 Sets to 2 Sets and have won less games than the one who won only 2 Sets.

 

 

 

 

Each stage is a Total Time Event. The issue seems to be how the scores in each Total Time Stage are accumulated across a series of Stages for a Match Score.

 

 

If the individual Stages are NOT considered a discrete unique competition events, but instead continuous competition, then Total Time is a good method to obtain an individual score for each competitor.

 

 

But if each Stage is considered a discrete unique event, then some other means than Total Time must be used to obtain an individuals score for a series of such unique discrete events (Stages). Rank Points is one way to make such an addition of unequal unique events.

 

 

The Scoring System is the result of which Game is chosen.

 

 

If there could be agreement on what the game is today, then maybe agreement could be obtained on the scoring system.

 

 

The Wild Bunch evolved the Game as a Series of Discrete Competitions of Unequal Events. And that is the Game that is played at regional and above matches.

 

 

I enjoy both Games, but will play them slightly differently.

 

 

 

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The Wild Bunch is the entity keeping Rank Points in place. A change has been proposed as a Summit Agenda item. I read the proposal. It was well thought out and reasons for the change were provided in detail. The WB refused to allow it on the agenda.

 

About DNFs, at the summit this year, the following item passed. "Should scoring be changed so that any shooter who does not finish TWO or more stages in a match is not eligible for any main match awards."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Yep, what I don't understand is why they will not let regional matches choose TT if they like. Keep rank for WR and EOT if that's what they want, but let the other matches choose. And that stoopid two DNF rule would be self correcting in Total Time. :wacko:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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If each stage is one onto it's own competion Why don't we have awards for each stage ?????

 

WE do go out to "A SHOOT" and compete in 10 or 12 stages and awards are handed out for the shoot !!!

 

We don't shoot ten or twelve shoots ....

 

And why bother with catigories if all are scored against each other shooter ????

 

Rank Points Sucks !!!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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If each stage is one onto it's own competion Why don't we have awards for each stage ?????

 

WE do go out to "A SHOOT" and compete in 10 or 12 stages and awards are handed out for the shoot !!!

 

We don't shoot ten or twelve shoots ....

 

And why bother with catigories if all are scored against each other shooter ????

 

Rank Points Sucks !!!!

+1

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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same fight

different doggs

 

oh well

here we go for 14 pages again

and

auh

shucks

I just added tooooo it :unsure:

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Guest Texas Jack Black

Now go back and think, WHY, the WB refuses to do away with Rank Points. I will give a few hints SOG, The cowboy way, family ,Fun, and IPSC, :rolleyes:

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Now go back and think, WHY, the WB refuses to do away with Rank Points. I will give a few hints SOG, The cowboy way, family ,Fun, and IPSC, :rolleyes:

Hey TJB,

 

I don't understand. Could you explain. I don't like reading into things that which is not stated. Implications are not "my friends."

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Allie Mo

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