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Shotgun Bandit

Rank points at there worst

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If it makes ya feel better try to think of a rank match as total time on each stage. The if ya have 3 misses or a P then you can see how many shooters didn't shoot themselves in the foot that stage by the total time earned? Why have an overall? A train wreck in R.P. on one stage and yer done! You've eaten those Rank Point and have NO way of recovering...of shooting your way out if you will. Rank is fine is you are only giving awards for each Stage.

 

Total time makes sense but being mystified if I have 4 misses as to why more shooters passed me by on a stage is plumb crazy... I had 4 misses... wonder what happened? :huh:And again, you're done in RP. Say this was your first stage. You can shoot great the next 11 stages and overcome your stumble on the first stage...

 

In TT does having a train wreck on the last stage have the same weight as having it on the 1st? I mean you let 300 shooters pass by with no chance to pass back :blink:Yes it has the same affect. You get "X" seconds added to your total time...hope you shot real well on the preceding stages.

 

When I ride home from a match I never look at the scores and blame anyone or anything but myself for 3 misses on the 1st stage. Sometimes ya just gotta stand tall, walk straight, and know the key is don't miss 3 on a stage!! Sometimes ya pay your money and ya take your chances... Ignoring a poor scoring system is nothing to be proud about and has nothing with SOG or The Cowboy Way.

 

Cheers!

:FlagAm:

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every year that I have been to rank point matches

A shooters adjust

knowing full well

one bad stage will kill ya

 

rank points are voted on each year, by attendance ;)

 

winter Range always rocks

I dont think that changing to total time would increase the numbers

it just plain rocks

 

 

 

I go to Rank Point matches and I know that going in so yeah I can live with it.If its a good match than I'm not going to let it stop me from going and I think most folks feel that way it just sucks that you have to live with it.

 

<_< I dont think Rank points are voted on each year by attendance its how good the match is and weather you have fun or not.

 

I dont see why SASS doesn't put it up to a vote.

 

 

AO

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<_<

 

#1 I dont think Rank points are voted on each year by attendance

 

#2 its how good the match is and weather you have fun or not.

 

 

 

Aren't those two really the same thing??? I say that because the scoring system used at a match sure SEEMS to have an impact on how good shooters think the match is and how much fun they have. But I've been wrong before.

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I wonder if something like this is enough to make the Wild Bunch reconsider.

 

I doubt it.

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Every year after Winter Range and EoT this Rank Points vs Total Time comes up.

 

Now for a little reality.

There is SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) which uses Rank Points.

There are other clubs that have chosen to use Total Time. These are CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) clubs following most of SASS guidelines.

 

Any shooter when they choose to attend a match know before going (in most cases)what type of scoring is going to be used. To complain and "Demand" that that event change the way they score because you don't like the scoring out come seems to be nothing more than sour grapes.

 

You chose to go to that match. You knew what type of scoring was going to be used. So why are you complaining?

 

Cliff Hanger #3720LR

-----------------------

The edit is to add. Rank points as done by SASS has it's problems. Ranking all categories together then splitting the categories out does not show how any shooters does within their category. There should not be say 300+ rank point in a single category of say 20 shooters. This is where a blunder on one stage will take a shooter out of competition when there should only be 20 rank points available.

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Rank Point matches - love them or hate them - are part of SASS.

 

You absolutely MUST shoot a rank point match differently than a Total Time Match. The larger the match, the more important it is to NOT MISS! At Winter Range this year, as usual, the shotgun KDs were stiffer than most matches. Slow down, and center punch them. Each pickup costs about 80 rank points. At Winter Range this year, those pistol targets were waaaay out there. Each Miss costs about 200 rank points. So, shooter, make certain of your shots.

 

There is a delicate balance that takes place at such a match. Go too fast and miss, and you'll finish poorly in the standings. Go too slow - well, ask Deuce and Single Barrel, both of whom shot clean, and DIDN'T win OA - where that balance point is. It's a tough call, a touch call.

 

To win is to be a CHAMPION; to demonstrate EXCELLENCE for 12 stages; not 11, or 7. In 49er, Longhunter did that, and he got the Win. I shot too slow, and didn't. I have won and lost using Rank and TT, and I know that their IS a difference in how you approach each match. And I kinda like it.

 

You know, my students sometimes grumble, because I'm the professor who never drops their lowest test score. That's because, to get an "A" in my classes, you must demonstrate EXCELLENCE all semester long, not three tests out of four. Curiously, like WR, my classes are always full, with a long waiting list.

 

Excellence. It's what we're about. And now, to follow Manatee's absolutely correct observation, I'm going to go practice before work.

 

Cheers,

FJT

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how would shooters check their scores for correctness, if done that way?

only about a dozen more pages of this until it starts all over again after the big shoot in june :lol::lol::lol:

 

I have a solution for that but I'm not going to go there yet. We scored almost 800 shooters in the Main Match and 120 shooters in the WB match. We had two people that needed to have their scores changed in the Main and one that needed to have it changed for WB. Two out of those three were errors on the part of the folks providing the scores. Only one was due to our scoring shack.

 

 

So again would folks prefer total time IF they wouldn't be able to check scores (of others) prior to awards?

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:ph34r: FJT :ph34r: is spot on

he and other great shooters, taught madd mike, that same ideal --- when I started SASS / CAS

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you know the scoring method, going into the match<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

so set up your nascar properly,

to achieve the best benifits from,

the track & weather conditions for race day

 

yup, it aint nascar

but it is racing, it is timed, there are rules, and there are penalities applied

same thing,,,,,,,only different

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Well Then a boycot of WR and ET .................................

 

 

Bet things would change ,,,,,,Fast ...

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

I hope you are not serious about a boycott of WR. We have to use rank points because it is mandated by SASS.

 

Scratch

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I hope you are not serious about a boycott of WR. We have to use rank points because it is mandated by SASS.

 

Scratch

 

shooters love yer match

 

I dont think ya have to worry much

 

shooters just need to shoot with rank in mind (its called competitive mental managent in my mind)

shooters may need to read

http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Mind-Mental-Management-System/dp/tags-on-product/1885221479

 

I lived what that book suggested for a year, prior to my last overall statechamionship win as a "GunFighter" and the shoot even had split pistol stage for GF's

 

its doo-able

back to what FJT said

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This was my first Winter Range and my second Rank Points match. I'm gonna add a newbie's point of view to all this and it backs up what FJT and Madd Mike have posted. I've been lucky enough to shoot and talk with both of these fine gentlemen and they were nice enough to enlighten me on what's important at a Rank Points match: CONSISTENCY. I wasn't able to acheive that but, it's my own fault, not that of the scoring sytem.

 

I like that Winter Range was what I considered a more stringent test of our skills. Not just being able to go fast, not just being able to hit the targets while going fast, but being able to hit the targets while going fast over a three day period. It meant the shooter had to walk an ultra fine line of fast enough without wiping out. That added an extra level of challenge to the match and therefore added an extra measure of enjoyment for me. I like pushing myself to see what I can acheive. Trying to keep my physical and mental games together for three days was most definitely a challenge I hadn't experienced before in SASS and I enjoyed it a LOT.

 

Thanks to this I'm already practicing for next year and I look forward to the challenge again.

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Only in a RP match should a SDQ be 999.99. In a TT match, it should be all the misses plus a 30 second penalty. Most stages, this would be a 150 second stage. Not trunk slamming time but a hefty hole to dig your way out of. If you can manage to overcome that and still place, you deserve what you earn. 999.99 was.devised for RP to make sure a SDQ got last place on the stage and ALL the rank points. It has no place in a TT match.

 

It's what I definitely hate, a total time match with SDQ scored at 999 secs. WIth that you definitely loose any chance!

 

Total time scoring or rank scoring I don't care both have their reasons, and Ive sometimes recalculated in our Franch Matchs (not many competitors, 50 to 80) that rank scoring or total time usually give no great change in the overall ranking.

 

But here MDs usually use the total time ranking and don't calculate max time for each stage and gives 999 secs for SDQs instead of max time (total of miss plus one SoG/FtA. Such a scoring on a TT match and your day is dead!

And I only shot matches scored that way, quite frustrating.

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I ain't an extremely smart person. Nor one that highly opinionated... but RANK POINTS are there (& likely to stay) for the VERY reason FJT stated. To win under RP match conditions, one has to demonstrate that excellence EVERY SINGLE STAGE. I am not saying that rippin' off 24 shots in 12 or 13 seconds isn't excellence, of course it is. And if you did that for 8 or 10 or 12 stages, CLEAN, every time... the scoring methodology would be immaterial. Lou Graham's explanation of why rank points came to be is also correct.

 

Every scoring system is somewhat flawed when apples and oranges are compared. If all stages were "stand & deliver" 10-10-4, then maybe TT is the best method. But, when you intersperse several stages that might have 10-9-6 or 10-8-8, with varying amounts of movement and direction changes... you're not really shooting the same stages. A lefty shooting a stage that moves predominately to the left has a slight advantage of a righty... and vice versa... add in movement to both left and right in the same stage... and well, you've muddied the waters some again.

 

I agree that ranking categories based on overall is detrimental to categories with unique challenges. But, for my money, TT isn't a true representation of a champion's test. As has been said by far better shooters than I, you can simply miss fast enough to win. An RP match will penalize you significantly if you use that attitude. An RP match requires that you pace yourself to ensure your hits... "goin' fer it" will, sooner or later, cause a train-wreck.

 

Various other scoring methods exist. How 'bout % of Time? Where the fastest shooter per stage receives 100 pts... second fastest receives the percentage his time represents of that fastest times. And so on down the order? Fastest time is 13 seconds. 2nd is 15.5, 3rd is 18, 1st would get 100, 2nd would receive 83.9 (rounded up) and 3rd would receive 72.2. However, under this scenario, penalties being set as a definitive time are just as onerous as they are under TT or RP.

 

IMO, penalties should be representative of the time it would take to go back and correct your error. Does it really take 5 seconds to reverse and pick up a miss? 10 seconds to correct a procedural? Dependent upon the skills of the individual shooter, it might take far more, or far less. How about making the penalty based on the average raw time for the scenario. Take the average raw time, divided by the number of shots; i.e., say 35 seconds was the average a particular stage was shot in (raw time, no penalties)... ergo, each miss would then be valued at 1.45 seconds for that 24 shot stage. How would that change your thinking about RPs? It would still seriously impact the very fastest of shooters, but create less of on impact as the shooter's time falls lower in the standings.

 

In my final analysis, with it's shortcomings and all, the most important factor justifying RP is that it is the only system put forth that allows any finish behind 1st place in any stage to be equal to the equivalent finish in every other stage. TT doesn't allow that. Neither does % of time.

 

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I have a solution for that but I'm not going to go there yet. We scored almost 800 shooters in the Main Match and 120 shooters in the WB match. We had two people that needed to have their scores changed in the Main and one that needed to have it changed for WB. Two out of those three were errors on the part of the folks providing the scores. Only one was due to our scoring shack.

 

 

So again would folks prefer total time IF they wouldn't be able to check scores (of others) prior to awards?

 

Joe....you can post the stage times to be checked without revealing the winners.....I promise you it's easy.....been doing it for years.....

 

The only information you need to verify your scores were entered correctly is:

Stage Raw Time

Misses

Procedurals

Safeties

Bonus

 

Only include SASS# as the identifier and sort it by SASS#......can someone sit there and add up the scores.....sure they can if they know everyone's SASS#......I've been shooting with the same set of guys for years....couldn't tell you any of their SASS#'s.....

 

Stan

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I hope you are not serious about a boycott of WR. We have to use rank points because it is mandated by SASS.

 

Scratch

I have for years wanted to attend both WR and ET ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but the final tipping Point, has always been Rank Points ....

 

Why spend all those dollars to have my placement desided by those that don't shoot the same kind of equipment I do ???

 

I keep hopeing that Rank Points will be scraped !!!

 

So yes, so far It has been the last factor in my desission Not to attend ... Not the only factor,,,,,,, don't like lost brass matches either ,,, but ...

 

I will travel twice as far to a NON Rank Point match ....

 

I do hope to go to WR someday ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Joe....you can post the stage times to be checked without revealing the winners.....I promise you it's easy.....been doing it for years.....

 

The only information you need to verify your scores were entered correctly is:

Stage Raw Time

Misses

Procedurals

Safeties

Bonus

 

Only include SASS# as the identifier and sort it by SASS#......can someone sit there and add up the scores.....sure they can if they know everyone's SASS#......I've been shooting with the same set of guys for years....couldn't tell you any of their SASS#'s.....

 

Stan

 

Absolutely. Alternatively I could place the posses previous days scores with their scoring sheet for the next day so that only the individuals on that posse would know their scores. I could then post the last days scores on the board without the previous days scores.

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I hope you are not serious about a boycott of WR. We have to use rank points because it is mandated by SASS.

 

Scratch

 

Yes it has been the Final straw that has thouse far kept me from making WR and ET ...

Many things are considered, like lost brass distance etc...

But why travel all that distance to have MY placement desided by someone shooting different equipment and using a different shooting style ...

 

Every year I hope Rank Points is gone ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but ...

 

I regularly travel twice as far to attend a NON Rank Points match ,,,, Like the folks fine and shoot with them offten ,,,AT NON RANK POINT MATCHES !!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Jabez sorry to here about you missing the best shoot in SASS, because of a scoring system that works just fine at judging a shooter skills. In rank point scoring you can't cover up a weak point of your shooting by going faster on another stage.

Rank by catagory is a mess we seen it tried here a few years ago, the smaller catagories show that a fast shooter could totally blow 1 or 2 stages and still win as long as they won most the stages.

If its a good match, its a good match I don't care which way its scored let me know going in and I will shoot accordingly.

BT

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Yes it has been the Final straw that has thouse far kept me from making WR and ET ...

Many things are considered, like lost brass distance etc...

But why travel all that distance to have MY placement desided by someone shooting different equipment and using a different shooting style ...

 

Every year I hope Rank Points is gone ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but ...

 

I regularly travel twice as far to attend a NON Rank Points match ,,,, Like the folks fine and shoot with them offten ,,,AT NON RANK POINT MATCHES !!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

So you regularly travel twice as far as you would to go to WR or EOT to attend matches? And you do so because they don't use rank points? The word "regularly" would imply multiple matches. Name three. Aw shucks, name one.

 

 

 

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I prefer total time matches. I like total time matches because it's easier to look at what I've done thus far and understand where I stand. I like that. Do I understand how rank time works? Yes. Do I think it's awful? No.

 

When I look at attending a match, I make a list of things I like and things I don't like. Although I didn't get to attend WR, with the benefit of looking at the match after the fact, here's my list:

 

Don't like: Rank scoring.

Like: 762 pards to hang out with.

 

That's 762 to 1.

 

The Likes have it. :D

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Hi again,

 

Although I don't like Rank Scoring, ;) I never use scoring method as a determinant for where I shoot. I can be last just as easy with one as another...

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I drove 21 hours. to a match rather than 4 1/2 hours to one using Rank Points ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, As a matter of fact I have done so three times in the past 5 years ...

 

I also attend a match 9 hours away over a match 2 hours away ... Guess why one over the other !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Do I measure in inches or Centimeters? Liters versus gallon. They are the same...but different. Rank points, total time. They are the same...but different. A rank point match needs to be approached DIFFERENTLY than a total time match. Like Frederick Jackson said, YOU CANNOT MISS. Some say misses on a long 'slow' stage don't hurt as much as they do on a fast stage. The basic concept however, is you have to shoot FAST and ACCURATE. That doesn't change.

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Yep beat a guy on 7 of 10 stages ,beat him by over 30 seconds TT have only one miss verses his 3 .....

 

And place behind him ...... Seems to reward ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, What ?????

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I'll go which ever system is used. That being said..I really don't care much for Rank point scoring.

 

You want to know what the worst system is,,,total time match that uses rank point scoring for sdq's. basically a sdq turns into a mdq that lets you finish the match,,,ie,,,instead of 150 seconds for a 10-10-4 to 999 seconds.... :o

 

now that my friends is a bummer! :wacko:

 

Cheyenne

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Guest Texas Jack Black

Simply put SASS was never intended to be just about speed.

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Jabez sorry to here about you missing the best shoot in SASS, because of a scoring system that works just fine at judging a shooter skills. In rank point scoring you can't cover up a weak point of your shooting by going faster on another stage.

Rank by catagory is a mess we seen it tried here a few years ago, the smaller catagories show that a fast shooter could totally blow 1 or 2 stages and still win as long as they won most the stages.

If its a good match, its a good match I don't care which way its scored let me know going in and I will shoot accordingly.

BT

I can't get excited about a shooter that braggs he doesn't attend the Canadian SASS championship because the non SASS Canadian CAS championship is somehow better. I suspect he has other conflicted motives for not shooting major SASS US hosted matches.

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Absolutely. Alternatively I could place the posses previous days scores with their scoring sheet for the next day so that only the individuals on that posse would know their scores. I could then post the last days scores on the board without the previous days scores.

 

That would work even better.....

 

Stan

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I can't get excited about a shooter that braggs he doesn't attend the Canadian SASS championship because the non SASS Canadian CAS championship is somehow better. I suspect he has other conflicted motives for not shooting major SASS US hosted matches.

:D :D :D

Talladega (NASCAR) is just 25 miles away from me, but I don't go there because their cars are different than mine. And Jeff Gordan thinks he's pretty. And Dale Jr. uses the number 8. And they drive too fast. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that I would get beaten like a bass drum. NOTHING I tell you! Besides, tractor pulling rules! If you don't drive a tractor...that's a John Deere...that smokes...and blows flames...like mine, well you aren't...worthy.

 

 

 

 

:D :D :D

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:D :D :D

Talladega (NASCAR) is just 25 miles away from me, but I don't go there because their cars are different than mine. And Jeff Gordan thinks he's pretty. And Dale Jr. uses the number 8. And they drive too fast. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that I would get beaten like a bass drum. NOTHING I tell you! Besides, tractor pulling rules! If you don't drive a tractor...that's a John Deere...that smokes...and blows flames...like mine, well you aren't...worthy.

 

 

 

 

:D :D :D

 

 

Oh come on Buck.........how do you take out a jet dryer with that thing? No wonder you don't want to drive it at Talledega. :lol:

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Buck D Law ;

 

Mine's Blue Made in da USA ....

And only 77 Horse ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But it did a bfine job clearing the hockey rink twenty miniutes ago !!!

 

6 foot shovel beats ,,,,anything ya can do by hand .....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I agree that ranking categories based on overall is detrimental to categories with unique challenges. But, for my money, TT isn't a true representation of a champion's test. As has been said by far better shooters than I, you can simply miss fast enough to win. An RP match will penalize you significantly if you use that attitude. An RP match requires that you pace yourself to ensure your hits... "goin' fer it" will, sooner or later, cause a train-wreck.

 

Yea...I remember a couple of years ago when I was at WR with Bud...he missed on a stage...ended up eating 2 Rank Points (finished that stage 3rd out of 700 shooters)...Then I remember some poor sucker that had a miss on the same stage...cost him 80 Rank Points...same stage...hmmmm...so the closer you are to the center of the Bell Curve, the more you are penalized...yep...great system!

 

Heaven forbid that we actually try and make the system better!

 

Oh, and I'll continue to shoot and support WR and EoT and every other match that uses Rank Point. It's a game!!!! But again, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't welcome an improvement.

 

Oy!

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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Rank Point matches - love them or hate them - are part of SASS.

 

You absolutely MUST shoot a rank point match differently than a Total Time Match. The larger the match, the more important it is to NOT MISS! At Winter Range this year, as usual, the shotgun KDs were stiffer than most matches. Slow down, and center punch them. Each pickup costs about 80 rank points. At Winter Range this year, those pistol targets were waaaay out there. Each Miss costs about 200 rank points. So, shooter, make certain of your shots.

 

There is a delicate balance that takes place at such a match. Go too fast and miss, and you'll finish poorly in the standings. Go too slow - well, ask Deuce and Single Barrel, both of whom shot clean, and DIDN'T win OA - where that balance point is. It's a tough call, a touch call.

 

To win is to be a CHAMPION; to demonstrate EXCELLENCE for 12 stages; not 11, or 7. In 49er, Longhunter did that, and he got the Win. I shot too slow, and didn't. I have won and lost using Rank and TT, and I know that their IS a difference in how you approach each match. And I kinda like it.

 

You know, my students sometimes grumble, because I'm the professor who never drops their lowest test score. That's because, to get an "A" in my classes, you must demonstrate EXCELLENCE all semester long, not three tests out of four. Curiously, like WR, my classes are always full, with a long waiting list.

 

Excellence. It's what we're about. And now, to follow Manatee's absolutely correct observation, I'm going to go practice before work.

 

Cheers,

FJT

 

I agree with FJT. I don't know whether my experience at this Winter Range argues for or against Rank Point scoring, but here it is--I had a stage DQ on the second day. If this were a total time match, I would be completely done with no chance after that. My first reaction when that happened was that I was completely done, but I decided to cowboy up and try to shoot well for the rest of the stages. I did so in part because I knew that while I had just eaten 772 rank points, in my category if you shoot really really well on the other stages, you still might be in the top ten. I tried to shoot well, with mixed success. I almost didn't go to the awards ceremony because I had two procedurals the last day (I was fighting allergies and an incipient infection and wasn't thinking too straight). But hey, I thought I would go and congratulate the other Classic Cowboy winners. As it turned out, the other good stages I shot, at least in my category, were good enough (even with the procedurals) to keep me in the hunt for a buckle. I finished 9th in Classic Cowboy. Considering the SDQ, I never would have been anywhere close to that in a total time match. I think this is an illustration, as FJT says, that with rank scoring you need to be excellent on every stage. When you get into categories where the calibers are bigger, the equipment is limited, and the shooting styles make shooting a little more difficult, rank scoring gives us middle of the pack types a chance to stay in the game even if disaster strikes on one stage.

[/font]

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I agree with FJT. I don't know whether my experience at this Winter Range argues for or against Rank Point scoring, but here it is--I had a stage DQ on the second day. If this were a total time match, I would be completely done with no chance after that. My first reaction when that happened was that I was completely done, but I decided to cowboy up and try to shoot well for the rest of the stages. I did so in part because I knew that while I had just eaten 772 rank points, in my category if you shoot really really well on the other stages, you still might be in the top ten. I tried to shoot well, with mixed success. I almost didn't go to the awards ceremony because I had two procedurals the last day (I was fighting allergies and an incipient infection and wasn't thinking too straight). But hey, I thought I would go and congratulate the other Classic Cowboy winners. As it turned out, the other good stages I shot, at least in my category, were good enough (even with the procedurals) to keep me in the hunt for a buckle. I finished 9th in Classic Cowboy. Considering the SDQ, I never would have been anywhere close to that in a total time match. I think this is an illustration, as FJT says, that with rank scoring you need to be excellent on every stage. When you get into categories where the calibers are bigger, the equipment is limited, and the shooting styles make shooting a little more difficult, rank scoring gives us middle of the pack types a chance to stay in the game even if disaster strikes on one stage.

[/font]

 

Actually, the closer you get to the Middle - the heavier the penalty...it's a bell curve distribution thing.

 

Also Dave, I'm curious. You had a SDQ. That means you were far from "excellent" on that stage yet Rank Points kept you in the game. So in your case, Rank Point scoring didn't support excellence as much as Total Time would have...So I'm a bit confused by this arguement...

 

Anyway...sure hope I can make it next year to WR...Rank Points or not.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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