Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Shotgun Bandit

Rank points at there worst

Recommended Posts

This ain't football, baseball, tennis or any other sport, it's CAS. It is a sport that that uses a timer. Usually when using a timer, the person or team with the least time wins.........unless the governing body chooses to ignore the timer and use some archaic, outdated system to facilitate scoring. Rank points suck, always have, always will.

 

CS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone is invited to come shoot the Michigan state championship aka range war labor day weekend.

 

By the way they use total time and not those stinking lousy rank points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now go back and think, WHY, the WB refuses to do away with Rank Points. I will give a few hints SOG, The cowboy way, family ,Fun, and IPSC, :rolleyes:

 

what if??

 

they do it cuz it is different

 

what if, they doo it

to keep folks from figuring out early

what if it is like most things on tv and movies and such

to keep ya there

just ta see the end

 

what if they do it, cuz folks still show up

yikes

madd mike

you and them must be maddd :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gosh, I kinda like rank point scoring... I think I mentioned that when this dead horse was whipped last year...and the year before..and the year before that...and the year before that...and the year before that...and the year before that...etc. LOL!

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Butt Weight! Butt Weight!

 

If you act now, we'll throw in another dead horse for free! Don't forget that all-time favorite: THE STOCK GUN CATEGORY!

 

It's almost Spring and we haven't beat it since about October.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This ain't football, baseball, tennis or any other sport, it's CAS. It is a sport that that uses a timer. Usually when using a timer, the person or team with the least time wins.........unless the governing body chooses to ignore the timer and use some archaic, outdated system to facilitate scoring. Rank points suck, always have, always will.

 

CS

 

Tell us how you really feel. :lol:

 

 

I totally agree I get tired of the anologies ,one thing really stands out to me is folks spend alot of money to go to these matches and then one bad stage can kill your match.

 

Whats strange is why Rank Points cant even be voted on ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell us how you really feel. :lol:

 

 

I totally agree I get tired of the anologies ,one thing really stands out to me is folks spend alot of money to go to these matches and then one bad stage can kill your match.

 

Whats strange is why Rank Points cant even be voted on ?

 

every year that I have been to rank point matches

A shooters adjust

knowing full well

one bad stage will kill ya

 

rank points are voted on each year, by attendance ;)

 

winter Range always rocks

I dont think that changing to total time would increase the numbers

it just plain rocks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your analogy is incorrect. Rank Point scoring uses stage place to determine overall placement. It is a timed event, therefore time should be the deciding factor. In a RP match, time only determines placement on each individual stage. This is the weak point of a RP match. One bad stage (I.e. Long Swede being beaten by 500 plus shooters on a SINGLE stage) causes a huge difference in overall placement. In a Total Time match ("TT"), the participant can overcome one bad stage by superior performances on the rest of the stages. RP scoring is further diluted by having non-category participants determine overall outcome. TT eliminates that dilution. After all, we time stages for a reason, don't we? Why not use time as the sole deciding factor?

 

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Love Rank Points!

 

I mean...where else can you get different penalties for a miss? Where else can you get different penalities for Safeties and Procedurals???

 

Isn't it a grrrrrreat scoring system???

 

But at least it's very difficult to know who the winners are until they are announced at the awards ceremony.

 

Love it!!!!!

 

:mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now go back and think, WHY, the WB refuses to do away with Rank Points. I will give a few hints SOG, The cowboy way, family ,Fun, and IPSC, :rolleyes:

 

 

I don't know what that is supposed to mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what that is supposed to mean?

 

Don't worry - no one does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas Jack Black

Rank points are for those who do not know why we have Rank Points. The rest who knew Roy,Gene etc. know the secret. :D

 

 

T J B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rank points are for those who do not know why we have Rank Points. The rest who knew Roy,Gene etc. know the secret. :D

 

 

T J B

More idiotic comments from tjb, who just loves to stir the pot, but never shoots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas Jack Black

More idiotic comments from tjb, who just loves to stir the pot, but never shoots.

 

 

YUP! I stopped shooting for a few years while you, Pilgrim, got some SASS experience . :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A long, long time ago, in a cowboy game far, far away matches were run very differently. The round count on stage 1 might be 10-10-4 and on stage two 10-12-8 and you had to hang somebody on the clock, too. Then stage 3 would be... well, you get the picture. The stages were not roughly "equal" -- each was an individual mini-match if you want to think of it that way. The ranking was a way to equalize what was not equal. There wasn't a long list of categories, either. The rank scoring made sense then.

 

The big matches now must have roughly equal stages or the next posse backs up waiting and bogs down the whole thing. You can short the rifle to 8 or 9 or add in two extra shotgun but you can't get too far out of line without backing up the next posse. The way we run matches now, the stages pretty much HAVE to be close to equal.

 

RS served it's purpose back in the early days but doesn't seem to be needed anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas Jack Black

Right on Lou The WB may be trying to keep some of the old ways alive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas Jack Black

More idiotic comments from tjb, who just loves to stir the pot, but never shoots.

Please read post 51 Pilgrim and you will be enlightened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few guesses as to the 'why'. I've even spent some time trying to work up a new scoring system, but there were too many drawbacks to the concepts that I had.

 

As much as I dislike it, we're stuck with it for certain matches. Either choose to shoot those matches or choose not to. It your money and your decision. If enough folks choose not to, then perhaps changes will be made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A long, long time ago, in a cowboy game far, far away matches were run very differently. The round count on stage 1 might be 10-10-4 and on stage two 10-12-8 and you had to hang somebody on the clock, too. Then stage 3 would be... well, you get the picture. The stages were not roughly "equal" -- each was an individual mini-match if you want to think of it that way. The ranking was a way to equalize what was not equal. There wasn't a long list of categories, either. The rank scoring made sense then.

 

The big matches now must have roughly equal stages or the next posse backs up waiting and bogs down the whole thing. You can short the rifle to 8 or 9 or add in two extra shotgun but you can't get too far out of line without backing up the next posse. The way we run matches now, the stages pretty much HAVE to be close to equal.

 

RS served it's purpose back in the early days but doesn't seem to be needed anymore.

 

 

Lou,

 

I appreciate the explanation, and I figured that was part of the reason before I came along.

 

However, I still don't buy it. Everyone still shoots the same stages and the time is still recorded. Time is the common denominator and should be the only metric, period. If ya trainwreck, ya leave the rails and the time counts one second at a time, no other method of counting is fair.

 

Not that my times (on the egg timer we use to time me) matter anyway....

 

Harvey

Who really disagrees with RP, but won't let it stop his fun. Life's short, cowboys are forever!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A long, long time ago, in a cowboy game far, far away matches were run very differently. The round count on stage 1 might be 10-10-4 and on stage two 10-12-8 and you had to hang somebody on the clock, too. Then stage 3 would be... well, you get the picture. The stages were not roughly "equal" -- each was an individual mini-match if you want to think of it that way. The ranking was a way to equalize what was not equal. There wasn't a long list of categories, either. The rank scoring made sense then.

 

The big matches now must have roughly equal stages or the next posse backs up waiting and bogs down the whole thing. You can short the rifle to 8 or 9 or add in two extra shotgun but you can't get too far out of line without backing up the next posse. The way we run matches now, the stages pretty much HAVE to be close to equal.

 

RS served it's purpose back in the early days but doesn't seem to be needed anymore.

 

I've heard this...obviously...but tell me how Total Time doesn't do the same thing. Everyone will be shooting each stage...honestly, I don't understand the arguement.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for arguments sake. How many of you would prefer total time if the scores were not posted until after the match was completed (i.e. no proofs prior). That way the awards would still be a surprise but it would be based on total time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for arguments sake. How many of you would prefer total time if the scores were not posted until after the match was completed (i.e. no proofs prior). That way the awards would still be a surprise but it would be based on total time?

 

how would shooters check their scores for correctness, if done that way?

only about a dozen more pages of this until it starts all over again after the big shoot in june :lol::lol::lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how would shooters check their scores for correctness, if done that way?

only about a dozen more pages of this until it starts all over again after the big shoot in june :lol::lol::lol:

Yeah, but at least we'll get to exercise our typing fingers until then. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In your analysis IRT, a shooter with a single SDQ (999.99) would be out for the whole match. SDQ one stage and you might as well slam the trunk?

 

RP can be horrid for shooters in classes like Classic Cowboy where middle of the pack RP's can be huge. For example a miss at the 30-40 sec range can add 200-500 RP's whereas a miss in the raw time 15-20 sec range may be only 10-20 RP's. Yes, this is inherently unfair. However, so is judging a timed event as a single 1 war occurance.

 

In golf match play vs. stroke play is often discussed. Match play being the win/loss of each individual hole vs. the total strokes in an 18 hole match.

 

I'm not arguing in favor of one over the other. We've all done it here ad nauseum, but observing the differences in each method makes the exercise interesting. And, yes, if I was Long Swede I'd be a bit bummed, but as Manatee observed: the buckle is the same from 2nd to 10th.

Only in a RP match should a SDQ be 999.99. In a TT match, it should be all the misses plus a 30 second penalty. Most stages, this would be a 150 second stage. Not trunk slamming time but a hefty hole to dig your way out of. If you can manage to overcome that and still place, you deserve what you earn. 999.99 was.devised for RP to make sure a SDQ got last place on the stage and ALL the rank points. It has no place in a TT match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas Jack Black

I've heard this...obviously...but tell me how Total Time doesn't do the same thing. Everyone will be shooting each stage...honestly, I don't understand the arguement.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

 

Read it over and over and someday you to will understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

As much as I dislike it, we're stuck with it for certain matches. Either choose to shoot those matches or choose not to. It your money and your decision. If enough folks choose not to, then perhaps changes will be made.

 

Pretty much how I see it too. Your money, your decision.

 

So how many folks attendented WR? How many folks had fun? Just how many got bit by the OP example? Well, we know of at least one person. :unsure: Kinda like a football player taking a kickoff in his end zone, running 99yds down field and fumbling the ball on the opponents 1yd line and coming up saying,doesn't the 99 yrd run count for something? :lol:

 

I don't see/hear LS or FJT crying in their beer here. Both didn't win a catagory, however, both buckled and received I would assume, the same shiny 2nd-10th place buckle, got their 10second of fame by walking up to the podium to receive the prize, both cowboyed up, both knew the scoring system and the consequences of it. And yes, both probably had a ton of fun and will be back... BTW, both would not trade places with JT Wild and in comparison, are darn happy.

 

 

And the whine cycle will repeat itself again next month.

 

I don't think there every will be 'enough folks' to make it change.

 

Blastmaster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, Nuttin Graceful, who came in second in duelist, had a slightly lower time than Grazer. However, Nuttin knows he came in second because Grazer was the better shooter this match. Not because of the scoring system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO rank points are fine for determining overall match placement.

 

BUT, category placement shouldn't be effected by everyone in the match, it should only be effected by those in the category. So category placement should be done either by total time, or by category rank scoring.

 

All scoring is done by computer, it would be easy enough to assign a match rank and a category rank for each shooter for each stage.

 

That's the view from my saddle.

 

Grizz

I don't think category placement,silver senior, is affected by everyone in a match. Placement is only effected by those in your category. Your overall placement is affected be everyone in the match. First place SS, 25th overall, Second place SS 53 overall. I don't see how a faster shooter in another category affects my finish place in my catergory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First let me say I do not have a Dog in this hunt .......Purely an observation.......

In 49er Category....

 

Long Swede 10th place............Time 275.73..............Rank points 770

 

FJT 2nd place............Time 276.11............Rank points 469

 

Just because a shooter has 1 bad stage (over 500 rank points) he winds up # 10 even though he beat 9 of the shooters ahead of him. That is soooooo Wrong.

 

FJT I aint picken on ya ..........Bandit ( what got his nomex drawers on)

 

 

What about in BUCKERETTE:

1ST-SASS Kicker............1289.99

2nd-Bonnie Macfarlane.......412.94

 

and Lady Frontier Cartridge

1st-Honey B Quick...........414.89

2nd-Pocket Change...........412.94

 

Rank Points at work!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for arguments sake. How many of you would prefer total time if the scores were not posted until after the match was completed (i.e. no proofs prior). That way the awards would still be a surprise but it would be based on total time?

 

Pard,

We've (FL State Championship) been posting scores so shooters could check their times for years before the awards ceremony. A few times errors were found and corrected. I doubt however that very few people could ever figure out who won what.....the total raw time, misses, P's, Safeties, and Total Time were never posted. We only posted the raw time, misses, P's and safeties per stage and NO total time......We also posted by SASS#....NO NAMES......I guess if someone wanted to go through all the trouble of writing down their competitors SASS# and spend all the time to add up all the scores they could theoretically figure it out BUT it is very doubtful......

 

Stan - who thinks the whole "Keep who the winners are a mystery" reason is bull

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate Rank Points... but I don't think that it will ever go away at the Regional and above level. Get one bad call or stage at WR and you are finished, done, outta it, capute, because of the huge number of shooter and rank points awarded. Also... shoot BP and the huge number of Smokeless shooters will have a great effect on how you place.

 

I hate Rank Points.

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone!!

 

Hold your thoughts. and place on this subject... We will continue the whine after the next major match. :rolleyes:

 

SB, can you remember to start us off when it happens so we can get into harmony? :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

1) Should the scoring program be changed so that any shooter that does not finish TWO or more stages in a match is not eligible for any main match awards?

 

After this weak as water agenda item... 999.90 shooters can still finish ahead of others? I hate the argument that 11 stages equals 12, rank or total time!! Try walking from the east coast, making it to Death Valley (with a dry canteen)(but you do have lip balm) and claiming you are holding a cold one at Santa Monica pier :blink:

 

If it makes ya feel better try to think of a rank match as total time on each stage. The if ya have 3 misses or a P then you can see how many shooters didn't shoot themselves in the foot that stage by the total time earned?

 

Total time makes sense but being mystified if I have 4 misses as to why more shooters passed me by on a stage is plumb crazy... I had 4 misses... wonder what happened? :huh:

 

In TT does having a train wreck on the last stage have the same weight as having it on the 1st? I mean you let 300 shooters pass by with no chance to pass back :blink:

 

When I ride home from a match I never look at the scores and blame anyone or anything but myself for 3 misses on the 1st stage. Sometimes ya just gotta stand tall, walk straight, and know the key is don't miss 3 on a stage!! Sometimes ya pay your money and ya take your chances...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read it over and over and someday you to will understand.

 

You're just clueless and want to make folks think that you know something about this subject...because you have a relatively low SASS number...yet have shot very few matches in the last decade.

 

Here's your chance to show folks how much you know and to prove me wrong. Answer my question that I posed...the one that you just blew off trying to sound intellegent.

 

Folks are waiting for your insightful answer...but I'm afraid they (and I) won't get one...but instead will get some smartass response not dealing at all with the question.

 

:FlagAm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.