RO'S limitations?

[McCandless]

Have seen this happened, wondered what y'all thought of it...

BP shooter, (not particularly fast) firing at at a "triple tap" or a "dump" pistol target. RO is in position, and has time to watch the gun, the shooter, and the targets (I know, I know, the RO is supposed to have his eyes on the shooter and the gun... but let's face it, sometimes when things are slow enough, we look at the targets, too.)

 

There's smoke, and noise. Two spotters call misses. One spotter isn't sure, couldn't see. RO saw 5 shots on target...

 

I have seen all three of these happen:

1) RO apologize to shooter, and award the misses. (saying "I don't have any input")

 

2) RO poll the shooters, asking them what misses they actually saw, then go with whatever the spotters can agree on after polling.

 

3) RO over-rule the spotters and call for 3 new spotters.

 

What's your thoughts? What would you do if you know that the spotters are wrong?

 

[Anvil Al #59168]

#2

If after that spotters still say its a miss. Then it's a miss.

[The Tonic Kid, SASS #70340]

When I am running the timer, I NEVER count misses. That is the job of the spotters, and that is why you have three spotters. Let spotters spot and let them call it. Have a great safe weekend.

 

Tonic

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Number 2 is correct answer IMHO. I have only once seen an RO over rule spotters-and that was a monthly match. In that case the spread from spotter to spotter was so great it was obvious the spotters were doing a job they were unskilled at doing. Don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like one miss, five misses and 8 misses. The highest miss guy said the shooter was shooting faster than he could count the rounds, so he figured the uncounted rounds had to be misses. It was a very fast shooter and spotters were not prepared so they just had random answers. In that case the RO called one miss, which he saw and replaced the spotters and asked two of them not to spot again until they had taken an RO class at mininum.

[Oklahomabound]

...let the spotter's spot and the RO RO

[Bad Hand]

...let the spotter's spot and the RO RO

That about covers it.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

That about covers it.

Except that it's the wrong answer. Nothing wrong with polling the spotters.

 

#2... is correct: when this happens an RO will inevitably hear "I THINK" when polling the spotters. Then you can get to the best result from there.

 

If the answer is "missed 2 second pistol" from both spotters then the call is 2 misses no matter what you THINK you saw.

[Curly Red Ryder]

Make posse members spot and spot and spot, and teach them the "miss song".

The more they spot, the more they learn "good spotting".

They are responsible for spotting and count the miss, not the TO who in no case can over rule the spotters.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Option 2. and possibly the last part of 3.

 

There has often been a confusing point as is indicated by several of the posts.

 

A couple years ago PaleWolf wrote an article in the Chronicle that explained that sometimes the R.O./T.O. is in the best place to see misses. As part of their job to stand as they are supposed to and watch the gun, they sometimes have an excellent view of the target as well. So if they see something, they may comment about it. No, the T.O. should not be keeping a counting of the misses as that is a distraction. But they can say what they saw and let the spotters use that input in considering the number of misses.

 

So in summary, part of the T.O. task is to watch the guns and sometimes share their observations. So that IS part of the RO being the RO.

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

The TO can not "over rule" the counters. He may "suggest", they look at the target, or re think their call, but he does not have the authority to ignore them.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Can I vote for 2 1/2? Remember the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Anyone who has spent enough years with the timer in his hands will run into this situation. Even though I "might" have the best seat in the house, I resist looking at the targets or counting. When I shooter does have a miss, it does set off an automatic counter in my little head whether I like it or not, so it's natural for me to see what the spotters have to say.

 

What I am saying is this: If I try not to spot, then I don't become "invested" in the outcome. The spotters have their say and unless there is something amiss, I try to keep my comments out of it. If something is amiss, I will close the circle and talk to them and sort it out. All of this is done usually inside 30 seconds if at all possible. If someone has to really think about what they saw, this usually is NOT a good sign and I might even bring that point up.

 

Just the way I do it.

 

Dang It

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Sometimes TO become lazy, I think in checking were the spotters are situated, or seeing if they are ready to spot. Seeing 3 spotters huddled together, doesn't make for good spotting. Edges will probable end up as misses. Or having spotters sit, and knowing they can't see above props, or when their vision is blinded by the TO and shooter. Good spotting will be arranged so spotters are separated to see all angles of a stage, and move around if the TO and shooter blocks their vision, and not relying on sound to indicate hits or misses. A good TO will also check the spotters to see if any spotters are relying on other spotters for a call. (Seen one time were the end spotter held 1 finger up, and the other 2 looked his way to make a call, then holding 1 finger up also). To many times we blame the spotters, but a good TO will also make sure they are doing their job, or replacing same, especially anything above a monthly. MT

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

The TO can not "over rule" the counters. He may "suggest", they look at the target, or re think their call, but he does not have the authority to ignore them.

 

Howdy

 

Spotting for Black Powder is not the same as spotting for Smokeless. Many times spotters will simply not be well positioned to see the hits/misses through the smoke. Trust me on this. It is probably too much to ask the RO to make sure the spotters are positioned so they can see the targets though the smoke. Particularly if the RO is unaware the shooter is about to shoot BP. But if the RO knows he saw 5 hits, and the spotters are awarding misses, it is time to have a little informal chat with the spotters and remind them that if they think it is a miss, it is a hit. This chat should take place after the shooter is done, but before his score is recorded, just in case any of the spotters wants to rethink their answer.

 

When I have trouble seeing or counting hits, I have no problem awarding hits for rounds that I am really not sure of. Remember, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Howdy

 

Spotting for Black Powder is not the same as spotting for Smokeless. Many times spotters will simply not be well positioned to see the hits/misses through the smoke. Trust me on this. It is probably too much to ask the RO to make sure the spotters are positioned so they can see the targets though the smoke. Particularly if the RO is unaware the shooter is about to shoot BP. But if the RO knows he saw 5 hits, and the spotters are awarding misses, it is time to have a little informal chat with the spotters and remind them that if they think it is a miss, it is a hit. This chat should take place after the shooter is done, but before his score is recorded, just in case any of the spotters wants to rethink their answer.

 

When I have trouble seeing or counting hits, I have no problem awarding hits for rounds that I am really not sure of. Remember, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

Words I don't like to hear from a spotter. Well I "think", I "thought", I didn't hear. And your right about BP shooters, good spotting means good positioning, it can be done. MT

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

Another aspect to the Cap'n'Ball shooter is that she/he will probably be using SOFT LEAD bullets.

These seem to "smudge" rather than "shatter", thus they spend a bit more time in contact with the surface of the target and may tend to "absorb" some of the "shockwave" that makes the target vibrate, and thus "ring".

 

This then reduces the "sound of the hit" factor.

 

 

I also use soft lead bullets in my rifle when I shoot with BlackPowder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(... this, of course, could also be completely wrong )

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

The TO can not "over rule" the counters. He may "suggest", they look at the target, or re think their call, but he does not have the authority to ignore them.

 

I believe we all know the rules for spotters: If you think it's a miss etc.

I believe the question was about the TO over ruling the spotters, not weather they (spotters) were right or wrong. The answer is, no the TO can not over rule them if they KNOW they saw a miss.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Option 2. and possibly the last part of 3.

 

There has often been a confusing point as is indicated by several of the posts.

 

A couple years ago PaleWolf wrote an article in the Chronicle that explained that sometimes the R.O./T.O. is in the best place to see misses. As part of their job to stand as they are supposed to and watch the gun, they sometimes have an excellent view of the target as well. So if they see something, they may comment about it. No, the T.O. should not be keeping a counting of the misses as that is a distraction. But they can say what they saw and let the spotters use that input in considering the number of misses.

 

So in summary, part of the T.O. task is to watch the guns and sometimes share their observations. So that IS part of the RO being the RO.

I agree, the RO should be able to multi-task. Yes I know we should be watching the gun, but we should also be in a position to see correct target engagement. How else can we assist the shooter to the correct target if we are not also looking at the muzzle direction. Standing behind the shooter off shoulder we should be able to see the gun, muzzle direction, and targets.

RO I partials page 6-7-8

3. Watch the Gun. By actually looking at the gun, you can identify where the gun is pointing and usually what target the shooter is engaging.

4. Stay Within Arms Length. In fact, the appropriate position for the Chief Range Officer is behind and off to the strong side of the shooter.

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

G) However, the Timer Operator is often times in the best position to evaluate hits or misses if in question.

 

"There's smoke, and noise. Two spotters call misses. One spotter isn't sure, couldn't see. RO saw 5 shots on target..."

This happens too often with BP shooters, but we except it as part of the game. We have some dead steel at our range, one in particular is a cowboy. I like to start first and sorta have a running joke with one of the ROs. On a double tap Nevada sweep I'll get called for one miss on the center target. RO shows spotters four hits on fresh paint, the dead center hit often gets called a miss. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure I get my fair share of freebies. Point is spotters really need to be aware when a BP shooter comes to the line and get in the best postion possible. Another good article by PW was TO Considerations and Guidlines, July 2010. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

I don't expect every spotter, every time, to be able to identify which round - from which firearm - on which target - they called a miss.

 

BUT I do expect every spotter, every time to be able to tell me which target was missed !

 

Am I too hard ?

[Snakebite]

From the RO II:

 

"...So, if there is not absolutely conclusive evidence of a missed target, shooter error, safety or rule violation, the Chief Range Officer must make every effort to assist the shooter by relating

any necessary scoring changes to the score keeper immediately upon resolution.... '

 

The T.O. can certainly poll the spotters to find out if they agree. The idea that the T.O. does NOTHING other than stand there and stare at the gun is just wrong... Yes watching the gun is a good way to follow what the shooter is doing, but the best T.O.s take in as much as they can. If for example the T.O. sees an edge hit on the 3rd shot of the first handgun, and the spotters have the shooter with one miss, the T.O. can certainly poll the spotters. If they called the edge hit a miss... then the T.O. can certainly inform them that it was a edge hit... that he saw it! BUT.. the spotters do not have to take the T.O.s input....(Same as the T.O. does not have to take the spotter's input on other penalties if he saw them differently). Each helps the other to see to it that the shooter gets the most accurate calls possible. If a Spotter says that he thinks the shooter missed a target, then I will NOT count that as a miss... I won't accept "I think" on any call... it must be a "I know" call.

 

Spotter #1 says clean, Spotter #2 says one miss, spotter #3 says one miss. The T.O. polls the spotters. Spotter #2 says that the shooter missed a pistol target. Spotter #3 says that the shooter hit all the pistol targets but missed a rifle target.

 

If your were the T.O., what would you do?

 

Snakebite

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I don't expect every spotter, every time, to be able to identify which round - from which firearm - on which target - they called a miss.

 

BUT I do expect every spotter, every time to be able to tell me which target was missed !

 

Am I too hard ?

Dear C0ckr0ach,

 

Sometimes.

 

On some occasions my finger goes out and the where and when gets erased. Other times, I remember distinctly.

 

Sometimes it is the weather, sometimes I'm tired that causes me to forget.

 

I sure do find it annoying when certain (there aren't many) shooters always ask "what did I miss," with a bit of attitude.

 

If remembering the where and when every time is a requirement, please excuse me from spotting as I can not guarantee that.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Anvil Al #59168]

I don't expect every spotter, every time, to be able to identify which round - from which firearm - on which target - they called a miss.

 

BUT I do expect every spotter, every time to be able to tell me which target was missed !

 

Am I too hard ?

 

 

Dear C0ckr0ach,

 

Sometimes.

 

On some occasions my finger goes out and the where and when gets erased. Other times, I remember distinctly.

 

Sometimes it is the weather, sometimes I'm tired that causes me to forget.

 

I sure do find it annoying when certain (there aren't many) shooters always ask "what did I miss," with a bit of attitude.

 

If remembering the where and when every time is a requirement, please excuse me from spotting as I can not guarantee that.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

What she said. When I see one. I count it. And I am on to watching the rest.

Now normally I can tell you. But I don't sit there and try and remember every shot. Because I am

watching the rest of the run for others.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

.. I won't accept "I think" on any call... it must be a "I know" call.

 

Spotter #1 says clean, Spotter #2 says one miss, spotter #3 says one miss. The T.O. polls the spotters. Spotter #2 says that the shooter missed a pistol target. Spotter #3 says that the shooter hit all the pistol targets but missed a rifle target.

 

If your were the T.O., what would you do?

 

Snakebite

Call it "CLEAN". My thinking is that the #2 and #3 spotters each had clean on the other gun. Same as an "all clean" to me with the deciding vote the #1 Spotter.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

From the RO II:

 

If a Spotter says that he thinks the shooter missed a target, then I will NOT count that as a miss... I won't accept "I think" on any call... it must be a "I know" call.

 

 

Snakebite

 

 

Snakebite my brother, I have a problem with this statement. As the TO, you CAN NOT over-ride the spotters. Saying "I won't accept an I think call" sounds good, but in the end you WILL accept what the spotters ultimately decide. As the TO you simply don't have that power. You can challenge the guy who says "I think" but that's it. You can even go as far as calling for new spotters (which will make for a long match with some sore feelings), but you simply can not just dismiss a spotter's call because you think he is wrong.

 

He is the plain truth: Unless you want SASS to go to all paper targets, we have to abide by this system even if you don't like the way we get to the decision of hit or miss.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Sorry, Dang it... Dan, "if you "THINK" it's a miss... then it's a hit. Snakebite isn't contramanding anyone. He's properly assessing the rule.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Have seen this happened, wondered what y'all thought of it...

BP shooter, (not particularly fast) firing at at a "triple tap" or a "dump" pistol target. RO is in position, and has time to watch the gun, the shooter, and the targets (I know, I know, the RO is supposed to have his eyes on the shooter and the gun... but let's face it, sometimes when things are slow enough, we look at the targets, too.)

 

There's smoke, and noise. Two spotters call misses. One spotter isn't sure, couldn't see. RO saw 5 shots on target...

 

I have seen all three of these happen:

1) RO apologize to shooter, and award the misses. (saying "I don't have any input")

 

2) RO poll the shooters, asking them what misses they actually saw, then go with whatever the spotters can agree on after polling.

 

3) RO over-rule the spotters and call for 3 new spotters.

 

What's your thoughts? What would you do if you know that the spotters are wrong?

 

 

#3 While tempting is in direct contravention to the rules. Concerning spotters and misses, the RO cannot simply over-rule them. Getting some new spotters when he KNOWS the spotters were srong...that's a good idea.

 

#2 This is the correct answer. As distasteful as it may be to accept a verdict by the spotters that you know is wrong, you tried to correct them. I do this all the time, expecially with edge hits. All you can do is all you can do. Even reccomending that the shooter protest your call and go up the chain isn't gonig to work because the spotters called it and the rules. ...well.

 

#1 Nope.

[Runamuck, SASS #49216L]

I won't accept a "I think" call either....the spotter is going to have to get off the fence and make a decision.....hit or miss....the four of us will hash it out until that spotter can make his/her decision.

[Samuel "Doc" Eells]

#2

If after that spotters still say its a miss. Then it's a miss.

 

+1

[Snakebite]

Dan, I appreciate what you are saying, but if a spotter does'nt know for sure, then the benifet of the doubt goes to the shooter. I would never attempt to desuade a spotter that was positive of the miss, other than to tell him/her what I saw...but I will NOT accept an iffy call of I think, or he might have missed.... it needs to be a firm call. I teach that in all of my classes, and as Chief RO I hope that all instructors teach it that way. If the spotter is NOT willing to say that he is sure, then it is NOT a miss. That attitude and instruction is and has always been given at the begining of every major match that I have attended. I now for sure that it was given at the World Championship, because as Range Master, I gave it. If the spotter does not know, then it should not be considered overturning... that doubt should be given in favor of the shooter.

 

I can assure you that is the opinion of the ROC, and the WB.

 

Snakebite

[Concho Billy]

...let the spotter's spot and the RO RO

 

 

Yep, else why have spotters?

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I don't expect every spotter, every time, to be able to identify which round - from which firearm - on which target - they called a miss.

 

BUT I do expect every spotter, every time to be able to tell me which target was missed !

 

Am I too hard ?

 

 

Yes you are. If I have to give a play by play after action report I quit. The day this is a requirement to spot is the day I no longer spot.

 

If YOU want to know where and when with which gun YOU missed then YOU need to pay better attention. I always know exactly what I missed. So much so as to argue with spotters who had me clean. If I know I missed and you had it a hit then you missed it. The call that is.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

This is to those of you who object to the word "think."

Following are some definitions of the word.

1. to have a conscious mind, to some extent of reasoning, remembering experiences, making rational decisions, etc.

2. to employ one's mind rationally and objectively in evaluating or dealing with a given situation: Think carefully before you begin.

 

I've been questioned about my use of that word and I resented it. I felt like I was being badgered. I was forced to change my choice of words to "I know he hit the wrong target." My thoughts did not change only the words.

 

I said that I thought he hit a specific target, which was not the correct target. I didn't say "I dreamed it."

 

Get a grip and stop badgering folks and wasting time arguing semantics when they "think something happened." Now if they say "I think he might...," that is a different story.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS Since that very unpleasant situation, I attempt to not use the T word, regardless of my feeling that it is appropiate in expressing what one saw.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Regarding spotters: I am with the 'If you think it's a miss.....it's a hit' crowd.

Stay attentive to the situation and its less likely you will just 'think' something happened or not

 

GG ~

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS When Tweety says "I tot I taw a Puddy Tat," would you reply with, "well are you sure it wasn't a dog. Don't you know what you 'taw'?"