Black Tom Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Got a question about some shotgun shells I seen this weekend its the second time I've seen them this year. They are reloads where they are putting a shotcard over the top of the shot then just putting the first stage of crimp on them, creating a shell that goes to a point. Are these legal? I know sizing down to a smaller gauge was made illegal. but just started seeing these this year. BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Yes it is legal.I use a shot card on my grandson's 444 cases that he shoot in his 410.No crimp just a little glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 My question is....why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tom Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I'm guessing they do it because if you take a funneled shotgun chamber and throw a pointed shell at it, it would be hard to miss and greatly reduce the chance of the normal crimped shell hitting into the extractors or edge of chamber. Pit Bull its not the shotcard I was questioning it was the pointed crimp on the end of the plastic shells. BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Sorry, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I was bummed when 20 shells I had loaded 'bloomed' when I took them out of their container....some of them to the point of spilling the lead out GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 My question is....why? Gotta be for double shooters only, so the tappered end feeds smoother. Seems like a lotta extra trouble when a little practice on technique would go a long way. A good place to start is the Deuce video ...........but, what ever floats thier boat is fine with me . Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Frank Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Now, that is the ultimate gamer shotgun load. I would guess that it is legal, but only because nobody ever thought to outlaw it. You have to admire the lengths that some will go to to gain an advantage. It is actually quite ingenious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Doggle Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Can’t help but wonder what that’s doing to pressures, velocity, and other sorts of things that happen when the firing pin hit’s the primer. Could this be the same fellow that complains all the time that the shotgun knock down’s just won’t go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Handbook, page 12 Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the specific gauge. I'm not sure if the current rules adequately covers this, but the obvious intent of the rule is to make such "pointy" shells illegal. Sounds like some one is trying a little too hard and wanting a larger handbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Handbook, page 12 I'm not sure if the current rules adequately covers this, but the obvious intent of the rule is to make such "pointy" shells illegal. Sounds like some one is trying a little too hard and wanting a larger handbook. If I recall the TG discussion on this rule put in by the Wild Bunch, it was that the shells with the compressed ends using for example 16 Ga sizing on end of 12 ga was a safety issue with dangerous significant increases in chamber pressures due to the compression. The latest discussion doesn't sound like a safety issue, but more a competitive issue, which is probably not currently addressed by the rules and should be either up or down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 The "why" is fairly obvious. I'll bet this extra little bit of tedium in shot shell reloading will police itself when it's reaslized that it won't produce the desired reduction in stage time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 The "why" is fairly obvious. I'll bet this extra little bit of tedium in shot shell reloading will police itself when it's reaslized that it won't produced the desired reduction in stage time. An outstanding approach!! A much better approach than having the crimp police. Ve vill not permit it too tight! Ve vill not permit it too loose! Ve vill be checking your papers, er ah, shells closely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden A. Grudge Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Can’t help but wonder what that’s doing to pressures, velocity, and other sorts of things that happen when the firing pin hit’s the primer. Could this be the same fellow that complains all the time that the shotgun knock down’s just won’t go down. am assuming that if the overshot card is sealed then the affects would be negligable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Got a question about some shotgun shells I seen this weekend its the second time I've seen them this year. They are reloads where they are putting a shotcard over the top of the shot then just putting the first stage of crimp on them, creating a shell that goes to a point. Are these legal? I know sizing down to a smaller gauge was made illegal. but just started seeing these this year. BT Do I have the description correct? A shotgun shell that is not fully crimped with the folded edges, (instead of flush like they're supposed to be) sticking up sort of pointy-like with a hole in the middle? The shot card of course prevents the shot from dribbling out. Hmmm. The rules address shotgun shells crimped with a smaller gauge crimper, tapering the shells IE; running a 12ga into a 16ga. That ain't this. These are shells that are not fully crimped so I don't see any "rule" problem but since the shell is not properly crimped I do see a problem with inconsistent ignition IE: squibs. I always laugh hard when someone has one of these; poof-shot dribbles to the ground-wad flys out looking like a poorly hit badminton birdie-misses target by a yard....priceless. To solve the above problem, put a dollop of glue/stickysnot/waterglass/whatever on the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 They're not ILLEGAL (yet)...but the concerns raised about possible inconsistent pressure and performance MIGHT get a "squib" call in the middle of a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tom Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 thanks for the replies. When the match director and myself found one laying on the ground. we really weren't sure if they were legal. BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 They're not ILLEGAL (yet)...but the concerns raised about possible inconsistent pressure and performance MIGHT get a "squib" call in the middle of a stage. ...... this might be an interesting turn of events, ... 'specially if the "squib" is called on a lot of that persons stages ... ....... a body might run out of ammo before gettin' done with all tha re-shoots from all tha "squib" calls ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 ...... this might be an interesting turn of events, ... 'specially if the "squib" is called on a lot of that persons stages ... ....... a body might run out of ammo before gettin' done with all tha re-shoots from all tha "squib" calls ..... Multiple squibs by a shooter will be cause for the Timer Operator to request the shooter change ammo. RO2 p.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Pat Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 My Mec Loader is old, purchased used and doesn't make a good pretty crimp, I use a shot card because sometimes my shot will dribble out the end of the shell...Not a gamer, irish Pat, sass 19486 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 A few minutes of practice would probably be more productive than hours of working on some "scheme". JMHO Drifter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Sure do have to admire the way you old hens sit around and cackle about what evryone does and what awful, terrible people they are for doing so. Do unto others, or some such thing, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 ¥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 We are all Safety Officers... remember that line? Just because some guy thinks that he knows more about reloading than the Pros do, doesn't mean that we have to accept it. I don't consider it safe loading practice, and I don't have to allow it. (Nazi Crimp Police???) yes.. if you want to jeapardize my safety and others safety, don't try to cover it up by slamming the person who would protect others on the posse... if you want to slam someone, then do it to the idiot who is putting everyone in jepardy. I encourage every T.O. to put a stop to it right now.. it's not safe. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 .. it's not safe. Snakebite Do we have any proof to that fact, or is it personal opinion? Some will say that ringing a shotgun shell is not safe, but how many accidents have been caused by the act. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Seems to me this should answer the question. From the Shooters Handbook: The Spirit of the Game means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call The Spirit of the Game nothing more than good sportsmanship Whatever you call it, if you don't have it, Cowboy Action Shooting is not your game. It seems that some folks have forgotten this most basic of rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Do we have any proof to that fact, or is it personal opinion? Some will say that ringing a shotgun shell is not safe, but how many accidents have been caused by the act. Just a thought. No reloading authority would condone such loading practice. "It is expected the Range Officers will be the responsible parties for observing and resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not seen by the Range Officer(s) should call the infraction to the Range Officer’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved. "Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed unsafe situation, and it is expected the matter will quickly be corrected and not repeated. Any argument concerning the correction of a safety related matter can be expected to result in that shooter being ejected from the range." Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 No reloading authority would condone such loading practice. "It is expected the Range Officers will be the responsible parties for observing and resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas. However, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not seen by the Range Officer(s) should call the infraction to the Range Officer’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved. "Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed unsafe situation, and it is expected the matter will quickly be corrected and not repeated. Any argument concerning the correction of a safety related matter can be expected to result in that shooter being ejected from the range." Snakebite So last time a shell was declared illegal the Wild Bunch had some actual test data to show that the over compressed shot wad created higher chamber pressures. Now we have a member of the RO committee saying these latest totally different rounds were not safe with no test data. I have no dog in this fight but would sure feel a lot better telling a shooter he could not use these loads if the TGs had something firmer to go on to rule the unusual round illegal than onemember of the RO committee said they were not safe. As discussed earlier in the thread, some reloads just do not get a complete factory looking crimp so where do we draw the line at what is illegal/unsafe versus OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 The only reason I can think of for not running a shotgun shell through the final stage, the finishing crimp, that I can see is to have a pointed end of the shell to facilitate loading into the chambers of a SxS shotgun. Getting bad crimps on some batches of shells is somewhat common happening among us who do not load professionally, as a matter of course I use an overshot card even though I don't really need to. I've seen some ugly shotgun reloads from some pretty sharp shooters. But these are a world of difference from a reload that skips the final crimp. Unsafe? I don't know, but would you condone something that flaunts common safe reloading principles? IMHO this is a classic SOG penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Brass hulls are loaded all the time with no crimp and only a little glue or somesuch holding the overshot card in. Why should a plastic hull be any different? What are you going to do, outlaw brass hulls because they are dangerous? I love it: the guy who scratches up his hulls to get a better grip when grabbing 4 for his 97 complains about the uncrimped hulls of a double shooter, the guy squirting ballistol all over his shells complains about the guy rubbing "stickem" on his fingertips, the guy with short stroked pistols complains about the generation 27 kit for model 73s, the guy shooting 110 grain 45 bullets complains about......... disclaimer: all these "guys" are fictional characters ard do not represent anyone in particular. That means if any of these examples fit you don't get your buns puckered 'cause I don't really mean you Can we just go shoot now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Beartrap, don't you know that them brass shotgun shell oughta be outlawed? Just cause they don't look safe to "me". After all, them thangs look funny so they can't be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Can we just go shoot now? Yeah, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Annie SASS #37063 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 They're not ILLEGAL (yet)...but the concerns raised about possible inconsistent pressure and performance MIGHT get a "squib" call in the middle of a stage. Nice to know that the TG's will have something to talk about at an upcoming meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I wasn't talking about whether the practice was safe or unsafe, legal or illegal. I was talking about the way some folks like to start casting aspersions about a persons character because they do something a little different. I absolutely agree if you, as the RO, or as a shooter are concerned with something then make a determination then and there and make the call. Just don't come on here with suppositions about how the shooter should practice more, and live up to your expectations in all things SASS, or else face the wrath of the collective wisdom and judgement of the almighty SASS wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LASSITER#2080 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I was asked about these shells when they were found by the match director and told him they were legal.They are black powder rounds so inconsistant ignition should not be a problem. Yes they load easier in a double but most double shooters have their chambers beveled to get a faster easier load. They are not my loads as I don't use a double but as long as there is no safety issue I don't have aproblem with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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