shotgun shell question, legal?

[Black Tom]

The first time I seen these shells being used this year they were not blackpowder. And the shooter was having pressure problems because as the RO I almost stopped him 3 times for what sounded like a squib until I seen the targets go down or shot hit near target.

BT

[Gawd Awful]

No reloading authority would condone such loading practice.

 

 

Snakebite

 

It seems to me that this is no different than a shooter placing an over shot card in a nromal shell, or a brass shell with no criomp, or a plastic shell with the standard crimp cut off and a roll crimp instead. I wonder why any of the others are allowed, however a crimp that is precieved as giving an advantage is deemed unsafe?

 

 

I also don't see how it can be any better advantage than a double that has had its chambers funneled already. or practice with a good technique like the video from deuce. If people are hoping to "game" a win instead of work for it, than I think they are missing part of the fun. However it seems equally unfortunate that some people wish to punish someone based on an unfounded Kneejerk reaction. if it is proven unsafe like the necked down shells are than fine, but if its just a kneejerk opinion without any facts to back it up maeby we should do a little research.

[Boon Doggle]

Hey There Boondoggle,

 

Long time; ain't seen..........

 

Planning on changing that come Battle of Plum Creek, time for a visit.

 

I am with you, how consistant can the load be. Gonna get a few that may not have much power.

 

As an admitted Gamer, I think I will pass on this one. If the card shifts and the shot rolls out.......................

 

I don't see much falling down.

 

 

Gonna give EGB's a bad name.

 

 

JM

 

Hey Johnny,

It will be good to see you again.

 

Hell, you guys already have a bad name. But, you had to practice a whole lot to get it.

 

Boon (Who is as gamey as his old, fat body will let him be.) Doggle

[Snakebite]

I've contacted three different companies that produce shotshell reloading data. I did my best to accuratly describe the situation. In every case, the company rep would NOT say that it WAS dangerous. They were all a bit sceptical about making any comments other than to suggest that given loading data and instructions should be followed. The Winchester rep was more talkative than the others, but even he would only go so far and say that it could be a safety problem depending on the loading data and other variables. He would NOT make a blanket statement that the paractice in itself was unsafe in all situations.

 

So.. at this point I can not back up my statement that loading in such a manner is "Unsafe". I still, however, believe that it is not safe practice to disregard proper loading data and technique. Doing so just increases the possiblity of producing unsafe ammo.

 

Snakebite

[BJT]

Especially given that they were BP, I can not see an issue. Finding data on BP shotshells is iffy at best and home grown loads have always had better patterns for me in the short barrel game we play.

 

In addition, I am sure there are a fair number of loads out there that look perfectly normal but are not in compliance with any particular loading manual (less powder, different case, different wad etc.)

 

If we get too wrapped around the axle on this subject we will devolve into production ammo only. Game killer.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

 

I've contacted three different companies that produce shotshell reloading data. I did my best to accuratly describe the situation. In every case, the company rep would NOT say that it WAS dangerous. They were all a bit sceptical about making any comments other than to suggest that given loading data and instructions should be followed. The Winchester rep was more talkative than the others, but even he would only go so far and say that it could be a safety problem depending on the loading data and other variables. He would NOT make a blanket statement that the paractice in itself was unsafe in all situations.

 

So.. at this point I can not back up my statement that loading in such a manner is "Unsafe". I still, however, believe that it is not safe practice to disregard proper loading data and technique. Doing so just increases the possiblity of producing unsafe ammo.

 

Snakebite

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Snakebite or PWB,

 

Will we be hearing something official on this at the Summit?

 

Thanks,

 

Allie Mo

[Fordyce Beals]

Hulls that have several reloads can relax the crimp and look like the described shells with a point. I use Triple 7 Hodgdon powder and told Birdshot at their tech support I was gluing the point to keep shot in the shell (no overshot card). He said that can lead to high pressures and not to do it. So there is one data point on the unsafe practice side.

 

Fordyce

[Rio Brazos Kid]

A weak crimp effects the efficiency of the powder burn and therefore the velocity that the load develops. Should the load become too weak to push the wad out of the barrel, and a subsequent shell shot in behind the now obstructed barrel, it could cause the barrel to burst, with possible injury to the shooter or bystanders.

 

While the card wad MAY provide sufficient resistance to the forward movement of the ejecta, until there is sufficient pressure built up to cause the shell to fire with some modickum of efficiency, the opposite situation is always possible too. Therefore, while we cannot totally rule that the practice is totally dangerous, there is sufficient opportunity for the practice to become dangerous, that all Clubs should, in deference to the possible danger, simply rule against the use of such ammo. Period

 

The Clubs have the responsibility to maintain the safety of the participants as much as is possible, and allowing known improperly reloaded ammo does not fit in that responsibility. Nuff Sed

 

RBK

[Rio Brazos Kid]

The above post does NOT suggest the use of Factory ammo for CAS shooting, but does suggest the refusal to let ammo that is visually obvious to be improperly reloaded be used.

 

If you want to kill the game, just require factory ammo. That will cause most to simply quit. The expense would escalate dramatically, and most would simply say NO!

 

RBK

[Buffalo Brady #24830Life]

There is a shooter here in S. Florida that makes these pointy shell things. He thinks he is competitive..... tries about everything.... but is not, really. This came up a year ago, we checked, they were deemed legal. But good grief..... just practice a bit rather than trying all this goofy stuff. If he spent the time practicing that it takes to make these goofy loads, he'd probably do a lot better

[Mike Fink, SASS #29047]

A weak crimp effects the efficiency of the powder burn and therefore the velocity that the load develops.

 

While the card wad MAY provide sufficient resistance to the forward movement of the ejecta, until there is sufficient pressure built up to cause the shell to fire with some modickum of efficiency, the opposite situation is always possible too.

 

 

 

Nuff Sed

 

RBK

 

Not a black powder shooter, are ya.

 

Mike Fink

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

So.. at this point I can not back up my statement that loading in such a manner is "Unsafe". I still, however, believe that it is not safe practice to disregard proper loading data and technique. Doing so just increases the possiblity of producing unsafe ammo.

 

Snakebite

Now, THAT is a sound statement!

 

Seems to me that this would be a good philosophy that could be incorporated into the rules. Would still allow for a lot of latitude but preclude "weird stuff!"

[Snakebite]

Hi Snakebite or PWB,

 

Will we be hearing something official on this at the Summit?

 

Thanks,

 

Allie Mo

 

Can't say right now... I'm heading out of town, but will work on it when I get back. Talking with the Pros was interesting. They were VERY cautious to not say much. None of them had ever heard of such a thing, and ALL of them thought is was kinda dumb. They all agreed that it would give varied results and poor patterns, but that is of little concern in this game. I could NOT get any of them to say it was unsafe.. because they had never tested such. They all agreed that it was non standard. We have many new to loading folks on the wire, and when they read about some guy doing this or that or some other nonstandard thing, it dilutes the overwhelming fact that they need to stay with proven safe loading data when they reload ammo. I don't think that this is at all the same as using a roll crimp. When using a roll crimp, there is no plastic standing out in front of the overshot card. I stand by what I said in my first post. "..I don't consider it safe loading practice..". At this point I can not prove it to be unsafe.. but such activity just leads down the wrong path.

 

Snakebite

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

Here's a picture of a couple of unfinished crimp loads. They are my normal BP loads run through my Lee Loadall that includes the overshot wad, without the finish crimp. Without the wad there would be no shot in the shell as soon as it was turned over. Very different from a load that has popped open for whatever reason, although the end result of no shot in the shell can be the same.

I could go out back and fire them off but it is hot and dry out and having seen fires started by BP in less hot and dry conditions, I won't. But I will load up a bunch and take them to the shoot this Sunday and see if I can improve my stage times from around 55 seconds to maybe 45.

[The Shoer 27979]

Can't say right now... I'm heading out of town, but will work on it when I get back. Talking with the Pros was interesting. They were VERY cautious to not say much. None of them had ever heard of such a thing, and ALL of them thought is was kinda dumb. They all agreed that it would give varied results and poor patterns, but that is of little concern in this game. I could NOT get any of them to say it was unsafe.. because they had never tested such. They all agreed that it was non standard. We have many new to loading folks on the wire, and when they read about some guy doing this or that or some other nonstandard thing, it dilutes the overwhelming fact that they need to stay with proven safe loading data when they reload ammo. I don't think that this is at all the same as using a roll crimp. When using a roll crimp, there is no plastic standing out in front of the overshot card. I stand by what I said in my first post. "..I don't consider it safe loading practice..". At this point I can not prove it to be unsafe.. but such activity just leads down the wrong path.

 

Snakebite

 

I am not arguing about how stupid that kind of shot shell is, but your wrong about roll crimps. What do you think holds the overshot card in with a roll crimp, the plastic that is rolled over onto the overshot card is what holds it in. I don't know if it is more or less plastic but it is still the plastic that hold the shot card in. Do I think it is stupid, YES, Will I do it, NO

[BJT]

Really?

 

Back when I was trying out brass shotshells, I could not find loading data. I futzed around with all manner of things that were never found in a book, all with BP.

 

Do we want to limit this sport to only things found in a loading book? I hope not.

 

When I buy bullets, I do not want to limit myself to loading manuals for that bullet. I may not even be able to find a loading manual for that specific bullet. I will refer to manuals to get a start and then modify loads from there.

 

Loading manuals are great but they are not the sum total of all things ballistic.

 

If you want to worry about something, worry about the shooter who sticks exactly to a loading manual and then accidently gets a double load of smokeless powder.

 

If you want to add safety rules, work on self sweeping or when a finger should be on a trigger or tighter controls on when the hammer can be fully cocked. Something that will add to safety in a meanful way.

 

 

Now, THAT is a sound statement!

 

Seems to me that this would be a good philosophy that could be incorporated into the rules. Would still allow for a lot of latitude but preclude "weird stuff!"

[Dubious Don #56333]

A weak crimp effects the efficiency of the powder burn and therefore the velocity that the load develops. Should the load become too weak to push the wad out of the barrel, and a subsequent shell shot in behind the now obstructed barrel, it could cause the barrel to burst, with possible injury to the shooter or bystanders.

 

While the card wad MAY provide sufficient resistance to the forward movement of the ejecta, until there is sufficient pressure built up to cause the shell to fire with some modickum of efficiency, the opposite situation is always possible too. Therefore, while we cannot totally rule that the practice is totally dangerous, there is sufficient opportunity for the practice to become dangerous, that all Clubs should, in deference to the possible danger, simply rule against the use of such ammo. Period The Clubs have the responsibility to maintain the safety of the participants as much as is possible, and allowing known improperly reloaded ammo does not fit in that responsibility. Nuff Sed

 

RBK

 

 

People who run less than the minimum powder charge for their pistol/rifle are also just as dangerous. Ever been hit by a 200 grain bullet traveling at (had to have been 400FPS or less) hit a pistol plate (which was properly set) and riccochet into a shooter at the loading table. (me) The nose was barely damaged and I probably could have reloaded the thing if I'd kept it. so yes, lets BAN everyone's ammo that....heck, lets just make everyone shoot FACTORY and be done with it. While we're at it, lets take care of a few other dangerous issues.

 

Knives are dangerous. People shouldn't be allowed to carry them at SASS matches because they MIGHT cut themselves or someone else accidentially so lets ban them. (or require all knives brought on the property to be dulled with a file) And all them low umbrellas... they be a HAZZARD to tall fellers like me. Them things are just about eye level. Tired of my hat gitting knocked off all the time so lets ban them too. And another thing...JUST KIDDING!

[Dirty Chris]

If I don't crimp my cases into the crimp groove on the bullet is that dangerous as well? Should that be banned as a "dangerous non-standard loading practice"?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If I don't crimp my cases into the crimp groove on the bullet is that dangerous as well? Should that be banned as a "dangerous non-standard loading practice"?

Yeah, if you are shooting them in a tube magazine rifle, as the loading manuals all tell you to crimp THOSE!

Good luck, GJ

[Snakebite]

I am not arguing about how stupid that kind of shot shell is, but your wrong about roll crimps. What do you think holds the overshot card in with a roll crimp, the plastic that is rolled over onto the overshot card is what holds it in. I don't know if it is more or less plastic but it is still the plastic that hold the shot card in. Do I think it is stupid, YES, Will I do it, NO

 

I'm sure that I could be wrong... it's happend before. I started loading roll-crimped shotgun shells back in 1963, about the same time that I started loading and shooting BP cartridges. For the first 30 yrs I only roll crimped paper hulls, but in the early 1990s I started using plastic hulls. (This was when I got one of them rollers that heats up the plastic). I don't think that it's the same at all. The overshot card isn't hitting up against anything in a roll crimp.. it blows on out. But that is subjective.. I can't prove that either.

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

If I don't crimp my cases into the crimp groove on the bullet is that dangerous as well? Should that be banned as a "dangerous non-standard loading practice"?

 

Thanks Chris... before I answer your question, I need to know if you are serious or if you are trying to be sarcastic. My answer would depend upon your intent.

 

Snakebite

[The Shoer 27979]

I'm sure that I could be wrong... it's happend before. I started loading roll-crimped shotgun shells back in 1963, about the same time that I started loading and shooting BP cartridges. For the first 30 yrs I only roll crimped paper hulls, but in the early 1990s I started using plastic hulls. (This was when I got one of them rollers that heats up the plastic). I don't think that it's the same at all. The overshot card isn't hitting up against anything in a roll crimp.. it blows on out. But that is subjective.. I can't prove that either.

 

Snakebite

 

I can go for that. I rolled crimped My BP shells when my son was shooting smokeless so we could tell the difference, now he shot BP too so I don't have to worry about it. I had the old style roll crimper.

[Dirty Chris]

Thanks Chris... before I answer your question, I need to know if you are serious or if you are trying to be sarcastic. My answer would depend upon your intent.

 

Snakebite

 

 

Sorry, I forgot to add the smiley faces. That wasn't a serious question. It seems to me this thread has gotten a bit ridiculous when people start talking about banning things because they might possibly be potentially dangerous. Most of what we're doing could potentially be dangerous.

 

If someone's ammo is not working well and they're having squibs or near squibs, then deal with that shooter and tell them they need to change ammo. If someone has shells that aren't crimped completely but they still work fine, let it go.

[Gawd Awful]

Snakebite,

I must comend you on doing the research on this as well as sharing what you found even if it didn't support your initial feeling on the matter. Let's be honest most people on the Internet won't bother to put effort into proving the opinion that they so proudly spout off. My hat is off to you sir. I must tell you how much I respect your willingness to put the effort in to learn and share :-)

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

They're not ILLEGAL (yet)...but the concerns raised about possible inconsistent pressure and performance MIGHT get a "squib" call in the middle of a stage.

 

Yep, inconsistent pressures. You're prone to lose compression.

How do you get a "squib" in shotgun? Are you referring to the wad getting stuck I suppose? The shot will just roll out.

[Holden A. Grudge]

The overshot card isn't hitting up against anything in a roll crimp.. it blows on out.

Snakebite

 

As I wrack my mind trying to figure this all out I am stuck wondering how an overshot card being pushed by the wad and bunch of small lead balls, could be affected by hitting the partially crimped petals of the shotgun shell.

 

I admittedly don’t know the load that the particular shooter in question was using. I am thinking that with a shell loaded with appropriate amount of powder, wad, and shot, then an overshot card that is sealed with glue or wax (similar to how you would load a brass shell), it wouldn’t make a difference if there was a full crimp, partial crimp, or the petals cut completely off.

 

It seems to me that what is under the card (inside the shell) means a lot more in the ballistics arena and other than observing them when shot there is no real way to tell.

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

Yep, inconsistent pressures. You're prone to lose compression.

How do you get a "squib" in shotgun? Are you referring to the wad getting stuck I suppose? The shot will just roll out.

I've seen shotgun squibs where maybe a little powder was present and everything came out but didn't make it to the target. Also where the shot made it out but the wad stuck.

 

If you look at the picture in my previous post there is an overshot wad in the case held fairly tight by the cone. I can not shake it loose, the shot is held in nicely, no glue, just a partial crimp.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Yeah, Traven... REALLY.

 

Read Snakebite's statement again... he said "I still, however, believe that it is not safe practice to disregard proper loading data and technique."

 

That leaves a LOT of room to play and "futz around" with in developing loads. I assume you used common sense and "proper technique" when developing your brass shotshell loads... and even proper loading data, based on your knowledge and skills.

 

Personally, I don't see how anyone could argue with what Doug said.

 

Really?

 

Back when I was trying out brass shotshells, I could not find loading data. I futzed around with all manner of things that were never found in a book, all with BP.

 

Do we want to limit this sport to only things found in a loading book? I hope not.

 

When I buy bullets, I do not want to limit myself to loading manuals for that bullet. I may not even be able to find a loading manual for that specific bullet. I will refer to manuals to get a start and then modify loads from there.

 

Loading manuals are great but they are not the sum total of all things ballistic.

 

If you want to worry about something, worry about the shooter who sticks exactly to a loading manual and then accidently gets a double load of smokeless powder.

 

If you want to add safety rules, work on self sweeping or when a finger should be on a trigger or tighter controls on when the hammer can be fully cocked. Something that will add to safety in a meanful way.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

I've seen shotgun squibs where maybe a little powder was present and everything came out but didn't make it to the target. Also where the shot made it out but the wad stuck.

 

If you look at the picture in my previous post there is an overshot wad in the case held fairly tight by the cone. I can not shake it loose, the shot is held in nicely, no glue, just a partial crimp.

 

 

...... I have seen loads where the shot did actually knock down the target BUT the wad was still in the choke at the muzzle of the barrel, ...

.... ( good thing the shooter noticed that he couldn't see through the barrel as he was about to re-load ... )

[BJT]

To create a load not listed in a manual is to "disregard proper loading data".

 

Proper technique, as defined by who?

 

Was it proper technique to use steel shot wads for #8 lead shot? I doubt there is ANY documentation for that technique but it provided me a good pattern and enough room for powder for my pyrodex shot shells (thank heavens for 777 which works with normal smokeless wads, another un documented technique). Until that time, I had donut patterns using "proper loading technique" because that loading technique was for 30 inch barrels and not 18 inch barrels.

 

The problem with making rules is it gets to be a habit. I understand the reasoning behind a rule to stop 12ga shells being run through 20 gauge dies. It was a specific and well researched rule. This game can not generate enough gumption to accurately enforce the small, specific rule book it has. There is no point in turning them loose on reloaders in the game.

 

Yeah, Traven... REALLY.

 

Read Snakebite's statement again... he said "I still, however, believe that it is not safe practice to disregard proper loading data and technique."

 

That leaves a LOT of room to play and "futz around" with in developing loads. I assume you used common sense and "proper technique" when developing your brass shotshell loads... and even proper loading data, based on your knowledge and skills.

 

Personally, I don't see how anyone could argue with what Doug said.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Let's set the record straight here. Metallic hulls come factory loaded with smokeless powder using a simple pressed in only overshot card. Just do a search for Silver Bear shotgun shells. There is no crimp holding the overshot card in. Doesn't make a difference whether the card is plastic, cardboard or whatever. The use of a card only holding shot in is not limited to BP. If there's a problem it's with the loader, not the technique.

 

If you want to try to ban the practice of "pointy" shotgun hulls do it because you think it's getting too "gamey" or because you're possibly paranoid. If you use "gamey" then why is it ok to bevel chambers, shortstroke or anything else? If it's because of possible paranoia there are plenty of more potentially dangerous situations to worry about than this one.

 

If you still think it's a good idea to ban them try writing the defining rule for "factory type" crimp. It'll stir up more problems than the "cone of safety", power factor, BP smoke standard and the holster degree rules combined.

 

Let's quit writing rules to cover problems that don't exist and let competitors compete.

[Manatee]

Snakebite: I doubt it is unsafe. I wouldn't do it because it's just plain stupid. And I don't imagine they'd work real well on the trap range.

 

My first impression would be to pull a Blutarski and smash that gun into the ground and ban the idiot for lack of any male human genes.

 

I know, I know....I'm mellowing. Can't help it.

 

 

[BJT]

Not sure to cheer or cry .............

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

Wail Hail... loaded up a few of these loads, with BP, and shot them today at a match. Found I can shoot them just as slow as my regular loads.

[Hondo Dan, SASS #45041]

I was bummed when 20 shells I had loaded 'bloomed' when I took them out of their container....some of them to the point of spilling the lead out

 

GG ~

 

 

Gunner...Was having trouble with my crimp at one time where the shot was "leaking" out a large hole in the center of the crimp. Thought I would solve this problem by putting an over-the-shot wad under the crimp. It looked pretty good until I got to the range and found the crimp had "bloomed" to a point. Looked like the over-the-shot wad had pushed the crimp back out and it created a pointie shell situation,as described. This was not intentional but I feel was caused by the over-the-shot wad pushing the crimp out from the inside. I went back to the bench, left the wad out, read the MEC manual again on how to properly adjust for a tight crimp and solved the problem.

 

The pointie shotgun shell found on the range, more than likely, was one that had been discarded as a defective round, rather than be used in a major match.