OT Electric Autos

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Just when many folks were about to consider electric autos I see that several states are going to tax them and hybrid cars to make up lost road taxes. How does $500 per year sound?

[Krazy Kajun]

Sounds bad to me. The electric only vehicles have such a premium price in the first place. Even with tax incentives from the government they are still high. Of course there is a lot of R&D cost recovery in such a new product so it will be several years before they are within the financial reach of us common folks.

 

As an aside, I am an electrical engineer for a power company and there is much discussion within our industry about the impact of wide spread adoption of electrical vehicles and their impact on the power grid. You've got to charge up those buggers and if most folks plug them in and start to charge them up when they get home from work that will coincide with the turning on of their air conditioners and other things creating additional loading on the grid when the peak loading already occurs. There are several options to address all of this but in the end it will be expensive for all concerned.

 

And now they want to add additional tax on these things...not good!!

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

No such thing as a free lunch, is there?

 

Saw a story about a year ago where a guy had modified his Mercedes diesel to run on vegetable oil. He would collect it from the fryers at restaurants. Had a bumper sticker that said "Powered by Recycled Veggie Oil". Some revenue agents saw his car, tracked him for a while, then fined him somewhere around $4,000 in back road taxes. So much for being a Greenie.

[Bart Solo]

I guess if I had to choose between paying my hard earned money to my local state government for road repairs or to the multi national oil companies because Arab strongmen don't want to provide freedom to their citizens, I will pay the local state government. I drive a hybrid and a SUV. The SUV spends a lot of time in the garage these days.

 

I am more worried about the local utility infrastructure. We should have spent a lot of the money given to billionaires over the last decade on upgrading our electrical grid.

[Matthew Duncan]

AND how much will it cost to replace AND dispose of the batteries?

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

It seems to me that drivers could save a bunch of oil and gas

if they knew for sure what milage they were getting and when to change oil.

Several cars now show the exact milage a car is getting real time every second.

Ive heard that several car companies have gauges that measure the oil and

will indicate when an oil change is really needed. No more guessing.

A friend of mine has a honda crz. He brags on his 40 mpg results.

In the late 70s VW made a car called scirocco. I had one of these

and regularly got milage in the high 30 to almost 40mpg.

That car was aerodynamic and only had a 4 speed trans. With a new 5 or 6 speed

I bet it could have done several mpg better.

And this scirocco was a blast to drive and could hold two people in comfort and

a full complement of camping gear for a weekend.

the honda civic coupe is sorta close to the scirocco.

 

Or just ride a bike sometimes....

Best

CR

[blazeafar SASS # 6750]

As soon a governments find out how to tax or control things such a solar, and

wind or whatever power to the level that OIL/GAS/DIESEL is, you will see more of it in use!

Oil generated tax revenue is BIG business and they are not going to let that

slip from there grasp so easily.

 

Ever think about refining you own crude?

[Bulls Head Bill SASS#33692]

AND how much will it cost to replace AND dispose of the batteries?

 

I've said that for quite some time!

 

Most owners will trade or sell the car when the expense of new batteries arrives.

 

As for the "all electric" cars......The electricity to operate them comes from burning coal or from a nuclear reactor.

 

When I debate a TREE HUGGER about hybrids or electric cars I bring those topics up.....and usually get this face as an answer....

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

I'll buy an electric car when I can get me an extension cord long enough to get me to town and back Guess what I really need is a Stanley Steamer and a good chain saw...not electric.

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

I guess I'm just not very 'Green'...Last week I bought a brand new 2011 Toyota 4-Runner Limited 4 Wheel Drive (which are now built on the Tundra Truck chasis)with all the bells and whistles.Economical and Simple to operate too...just add Gas...Good gas mileage too..17 in city, 22 on Hwy!

I don't live in anything close to a 'city' or commute....an electric car that goes 75- 200 mles before charging would be useless given the great distances here in the West, plus

Hybrids are still not recommended for daily Mountain driving like I do...Too hard on a hybrid and the initial cost for a Hybrid that perhaps could negotiate the up and down of mountian driving would be cost prohibitive, even if amortized versus any savings over the next 10 years.

Now a Tesla might be fun for the pure acceleration capability, but still just an expensive sports car with little practical value and extremely high cost and expensive electric power requirements...much like my Viper a sfar as impractical (FUN is another matter entirely!), but the Viper is paid for and a whole lot more fun and way more performance, and can go a lot further on one tank (or charge than a Tesla) than any electric.Nope, I'll leave the New electric car technology to the future generations.I like Gas vehicles.When gas gets to be $20/gallon while Obama searches for alternative energy and reliance on foregin oil, and continues to ignore our domestic oil reserves, I'll just start riding my Harley everywhere..It gets about 40 plus mpg.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

AND how much will it cost to replace AND dispose of the batteries?

That new Chevrolet Volt has a bunch of those fancy batteries in it. GM says they will last about 8-10 years. Then it's an $8,000 charge for new batteries. I suspect it will be a disposable car when the batteries give out. Not many 10 year old cars are worth putting $8,000 into repairs. We'll see.

[blazeafar SASS # 6750]

The biggest problem I see with alternate fuel sources for transportation needs

is everyone wants to develop a completely different vehicle and not find

something that could be adapted to what is currently in production to meet the

short term needs.

They also tend to create something ugly and expensive that few like to look of

or can afford, as if on propose so no one buys it and then say the public is not

ready for alternate fuels.

[Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795]

Saw a news blurb this week about somebody that had one of those Volts. he was charging it and it caught fire and burned the guy's garage down. Destroyed the car and the SUV that was in there with it

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

My condo complex has proposed a $200/month charge for power to be supplied to an EV to residents that buy one! That is on top of the resident paying for the electrical installation! How about $2400/year added to the cost!

[DocWard]

I've heard of problems with electrics in cold weather. Not sure there is much if any truth, but heaters cause power to drain more quickly and cold weather negatively effects the battery performance.

[Blackwater 53393]

Back in the '80s the Geo, (Chevy) Metro was getting 56 mpg highway, and I still see a few of them running around.

 

JUST WHAT IS SOOOOO SPECIAL ABOUT A HYBRID THAT ONLY GETS AROUND 40???

[Grizzly Dave]

I read some studies a few years back about hybrids and electric cars. It focused on the batteries needed to power then, what went into making the batteries, disposing of them, etc etc. At the time much of the batteries parts or whatever came from overseas, shipped on big container ships burning oil products. Anyway, long story short, there was no environmental "savings" in the overall picture.

 

Heck, I drive an old Civic, if I keep it tuned up, tires properly inflated and oil changed, I get maybe 36-38 on the highway, I'm gonna get a hybrid why? Nope.

 

Oh, and I paid less than 8 grand for the civic years ago.

[Bart Solo]

AND how much will it cost to replace AND dispose of the batteries?

 

Hell if I know, my Prius is a rental. Disposing of the batteries is Toyota's problem. I learned a long time ago that you don't buy a depreciating asset like a car. You lease it, unless you intend to hold on to it for 10 or more years. In ten years my wife will insist on buying a Volt or something like it. My wife isn't a tree hugger, she is just really, really tight. Man can she run a spreadsheet.

 

As to the Metro, my son owned one of them. He thought it was great, but he is Mr. Goodwrench on steroids. He had to rebuild the engine every 30 thousand miles. He could, most of us couldn't.

 

The Prius runs like just another car, except you get great gas mileage. Too bad people keep thinking cheap gas is here to stay. If they didn't we would demand better gas milaege.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

The technology to get high MPG has been available for a long time.

I recall an article in Hot Rod magazine back in the mid-70's about a guy in Texas who had developed a new carburetor. It looked like a shower head, and the fuel/air mix it produced was a misty fog instead of droplets or a spray. He installed it on a 428 Police Interceptor engine and routinely got 25 MPG and it still made over 400 HP.

 

There's retrofit devices that'll boost mileage. Some claims are bogus, but others do really work without resorting to exotic and expensive technologies. Those small on-board hydrogen generators show great promise. Home experimenters report some pretty impressive results, up to 65 MPG in full-size sedans.

 

Just changing the aerodynamics can show an increase. Have you noticed how a lot of vans and SUV's all have that little shelf extending over the rear glass? That's to increase the Kamm effect, something they've known about since the 1930's. Paul Jaray pioneered a lot of aero research in the 1920's. Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion car, and the Chrysler Airflow used their principles to get outstanding mileage.

 

Until something as plentiful and cheap as oil comes along, building cars using batteries made of unobtanium is just an expensive diversion into the realm of impracticality.

[DocWard]

Until something as plentiful and cheap as oil comes along, building cars using batteries made of unobtanium is just an expensive diversion into the realm of impracticality.

 

It is also an expensive way for those who don't know any better to feel good about themselves for doing something about the environment. I know a couple of people who own the Prius. I tease them that it is a contraction of pretentious.

[Bear Saint Paw]

Some points to consider;

 

A good use of a Hybrid would be the Ford Fusion, It get s 41mpg city which is where many people drive the most and it still gets 36mpg hiway. They have an 8 year/100K mile warranty on the hybrid components and many people trade vehicles in every 5-7 years. So all you are out is the initial Hybrid up charge and there may be annual tax credits to help offset that.

 

http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/2011/warranty/

Your vehicle’s unique components are covered during the Hybrid

Vehicle Unique Component Coverage, which lasts for eight years or 100,000

miles, whichever occurs first.

 

Some VW TDI's are already getting 60mpg

http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

 

More and more car OEM's are going to synthetic lubricants and everyone should be using them anyway as they do save money and provide superior protection. Some vehicles with the proper synthetic oil and filter can go with changing them just once every year or 25,000 miles.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx

 

AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) gasoline-fueled vehicles as follows:

 

• Normal Service(3) – Up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

• Severe Service(4) – Up to 15,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first

 

I go 10,000 miles on my Powerstrokes and could go longer with oil analysis.

 

With the new bypass filters, the synthetic oil could last years and all I have to do is change filters periodically, something I'm still looking in to.

[Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310]

I've heard of problems with electrics in cold weather. Not sure there is much if any truth, but heaters cause power to drain more quickly and cold weather negatively effects the battery performance.

Consumer reports tested a nissan leaf in the dead of the east coast winter and said that with everything on including the heat(electric) the range had dropped to something like 14 miles. Seems like a warm weather climate car only.......Doc

[Blackwater 53393]

The problem with the short sighted "trade it before it quits" train of thought is that the disposal and manufacturing negatives still exist!! Just because you aren't paying for them directly doesn't make them go away. Your disposal of the vehicle merely dumps the problem in someone else's lap and does nothing to aleviate the expense borne by the rest of the public in storage of toxic and destructive byproducts created in manufacturing and waste management.

 

The raw materials for the battery or batteries used in most of these vehicles are mined in Canada. The effect on the surrounding region is devastating. Then those materials are freighted by rail and ship to Asia and soon to Middle Tennessee for refinement and assembly. The finished products are then loaded back on a ship or train or both and freighted to the vehicle assembly plant. Figure fuel and lubricants and coal or oil or nuclear powered electricity supplied for manufacture and delivery. Don't forget the trucks that move these articles to and from the mines and factories and ports and docks. Next calculate the fuels expended in charging and maintaining charging facilities. Finally you have to do something with the waste and the depleted or worn out battery cores.

 

The "disposing of the batteries is Toyota's problem" becomes the taxpayer's problem in the long run.

 

My last three vehicles and my old Harley all have gone over three hundred thousand miles. I'm still driving the '97 Chevy pickup and riding the Harley. The only major expense besides fuel on the truck was a crankshaft regrind last summer, and as yet there isn't a hybrid or electrical equivalent capable of doing what that ol' green monster does. The Harley has been rebuilt several times. It's an old Shovelhead, whaddaya' expect? Still, it has gone over eighty thousand between rebuilds twice, and there is no hybrid or electric equivalent for it either!!

 

The Metro I mentioned earlier? One of them belongs to a guy I used to work with, has well over two hundred thousand miles on it and it still gets him back and forth to work. He doesn't push it hard and keeps it maintained.

 

I'm not sold on hybrids or pure electrics as it stands and am skeptical of their worth or relevance.

[Bear Saint Paw]

I know this is the extreme but it is still very impressive and educational

 

average of 81.5 mpg

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/29/ford-fusion-hybrid-hypermiles-goes-1-445-miles-on-a-single-tank/

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

It is also an expensive way for those who don't know any better to feel good about themselves for doing something about the environment. I know a couple of people who own the Prius. I tease them that it is a contraction of pretentious.

 

Doc, you nailed that one square!

[Cash Duckett]

Benton County, Arkansas is considering going to CNG, compressed natural gas, on about 500 county vehicles. $12,500 per car and small truck, did not disclose what it costs to change out a truck. Sounds like new engines to me. Natural gas costs about 1/4 what gasoline costs, and gets within 10% fuel economy. Natural gas we use here comes from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, and they cliam there is plenty of it.

Cash

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Show me a cost to purchase, cost to maintain, performance under all road and weather conditions, load capacity, distance between refills, convenience to refill, resale/ depreciation value, and PROVE to me it's as good a my four passenger pickup and I might be persuaded.

 

Until then it's just a very expensive BS toy.

[Olen Rugged]

Anyone considering propane or natural gas as an alternative in a late model, fuel injected, gasoline, emissions compliant vehicle?

 

I have owned several propane/gas bi-fuel trucks but they were carbureted, pre-emissions vehicles. I am considering trading down to an older rebuilt truck just for the propane.

 

I know it is not cheap or especially efficient but it is available here and no dollars go to the sheet heads over there...

 

Olen

[Olen Rugged]

Show me a cost to purchase, cost to maintain, performance under all road and weather conditions, load capacity, distance between refills, convenience to refill, resale/ depreciation value, and PROVE to me it's as good a my four passenger pickup and I might be persuaded.

 

Until then it's just a very expensive BS toy.

 

 

Rousch has been building a dedicated propane F150 since 2007. If any of their materials can be believed, the only gotcha left is "convenience to refill".

 

They have a lot of calculators and information on their commercial site:

 

http://www.roushcleantech.com/

 

Olen

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Diesel locomotives and those huge dump trucks used in the mining industry are driven by electric motors. The diesel is there to provide the electricity.

 

Maybe some of you with industry or engineering experience can tell us why that technology can't (or can) be applied to cars? Seems like a slam dunk on the surface, but there must be a practical reason we haven't seen it.

[Olen Rugged]

Diesel locomotives and those huge dump trucks used in the mining industry are driven by electric motors. The diesel is there to provide the electricity.

 

Maybe some of you with industry or engineering experience can tell us why that technology can't (or can) be applied to cars? Seems like a slam dunk on the surface, but there must be a practical reason we haven't seen it.

 

 

Basically it is done for the torque, specifically to move very heavy loads. It is there instantly and throughout the power band. The efficiency is generated on a tons-per-mile basis and looks pretty good to someone shipping 12,000 tons of product.

 

Olen

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Anyone considering propane or natural gas as an alternative in a late model, fuel injected, gasoline, emissions compliant vehicle?

 

I have owned several propane/gas bi-fuel trucks but they were carbureted, pre-emissions vehicles. I am considering trading down to an older rebuilt truck just for the propane.

 

I know it is not cheap or especially efficient but it is available here and no dollars go to the sheet heads over there...

 

Olen

 

I was talking about electric vehicles. I'm more open-minded about propane and other bottled gas systems...but not much. I'm too much of a luddite to accept the manufacturers and a few customers bonafides as "evidence" of how good they are.

 

Also, all the natural gas in the world comes from wells, too, doesn't it?

[DocWard]

More Luddites? Geez, they're coming out of the woodwork!

 

I belong to a Toyota Tundra forum, and one owner in Holland has his converted to propane and speaks highly of it.

[Blackwater 53393]

Diesel locomotives and those huge dump trucks used in the mining industry are driven by electric motors. The diesel is there to provide the electricity.

 

Maybe some of you with industry or engineering experience can tell us why that technology can't (or can) be applied to cars? Seems like a slam dunk on the surface, but there must be a practical reason we haven't seen it.

 

The Chevrolet Volt uses that principle. Although the engine is gasoline powered it supplies no motive force except through the generator it powers. All drive is by electric motor. When using the gasoline backup generator system it gets a claimed 40 mpg. That works out to 160 passenger miles to the gallon. I would like to know the actual mpg figures on a diesel/electric locomotive at speed, loaded. Many of those locomotives are capable of running on third rail and overhead electric systems too. Still, the electricity has to be generated somehow.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

This is all much ado about nothing except maybe a warm fuzzy. All the hybrids and flex fuel cars still depend on fossil fuels to generate the electricity.

If we were serious about alternative fuels we would be following the Brazilians ethanol development. Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy. We were on track with ethanol but the corn state lobby screwed that up. It takes too much fossil fuel to produce the corn. The Brazilians based their ethanol not on corn but sugarcane. The crop yield is some much better. Corn yield per acre is about 8.5 tons where sugarcane yield is 35 tons. Corn has to be replanted every year. A single planting of sugarcane yields 5 cuttings over 6 years before it's replanted. They are currently developing a hay like grass that has an even better yield.