Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 To me, the electric is the ultimate elitist, cul-de-sac warrier's thumbed nose at the rest of us. Imagine a development where oil burning cars are outlawed due to noise and pollution, it will happen. Yt of course the electricity is generated in most instances by burning something in somebody's back yard, the batteries are made in somebody's back yard, etc. The SCRAP batteries are going en massse to CHINA, driving up lead costs here.... The tax breaks at the maker and consumer end make electrics affordable, at least somewhat, but for the average first owner there is to be NO savings. A FORTY THOUSAND DOLLAR "econobox" almost on par as a CAR with a gas burner of half the cost saves the average first owner (4 years or less) NOTHING, and high back end maintenance makes em scary on the used market. A buddy has a Prius with 80K on it, and he's about to dump it, afraid the batteries and other pricey stuff will soon need replacing. But the elitist angle is nothing new. The high-rise glass, steel and concrete apartment dweeling urbanite would NEVER tolerate a steel, glass, or concrete plant anywhere near his "green" environment, where one hemp drapery and use of biodegradable trash bags makes him feel all warm and fuzzy about hugging the planet, while the resources consumed for his glass bubble in the sky choke some mill town in pollution..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olen Rugged Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Also, all the natural gas in the world comes from wells, too, doesn't it? That is a "yes, but", the US has huge reserves of gas that are only now being exploited. We need to get off the imported oil teat. The issue is self reliance, something I think most cowboys understand. Natural gas is here, it is recoverable, it is usable with current technology, it is reasonably clean and efficient (as a fuel). Although there are significant issues with gas "fracking" the technology is delivering on the promise of high volume production. Efforts are underway to regulate and oversee the process, it is not pretty but it is doable. Olen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Benton County, Arkansas is considering going to CNG, compressed natural gas, on about 500 county vehicles. $12,500 per car and small truck, did not disclose what it costs to change out a truck. Sounds like new engines to me. Natural gas costs about 1/4 what gasoline costs, and gets within 10% fuel economy. Natural gas we use here comes from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, and they cliam there is plenty of it. Cash Won't take a new engine, just a conversion, a tank and a fitting on the injector body or carboretor. The real issue is that because of its lower specific gravity, compressed gas fuel (propane, CNG, butane, etc.) doesn't make as many miles per gallon as gasoline or diesel. So while it burns cleaner and makes the engine last longer, it also means you have to gas up more often. I've never heard of a CNG car making 90 percent of the mileage of regular gasoline. More like 50 percent, but literally your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Masked Man Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Nothing is as efficient as fossil fuel power, at least in part because nothing's had as many man-hours of technological development. CNG and Hydrogen are clean-burning, but most domestic Hydrogen production today uses a lot of fossil fuel too. The batteries are anything but 'green' for hybrids (including the Volt) let alone pure-electrics. Our dependency runs deep. There are no perfect answers today, but we begin to see how foundational the issues are and how we'll have to develop industries to create the infrastructure that can be the foundation for the industries that we can then develop to create the infrastructure that can be the foundation for the industries that can deliver clean energy at the point of use and all throughout the chain of production. As somebody once said, Nothin' worth doin' was ever easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Creek Sam, SASS# 78004 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I've said that for quite some time! Most owners will trade or sell the car when the expense of new batteries arrives. As for the "all electric" cars......The electricity to operate them comes from burning coal or from a nuclear reactor. When I debate a TREE HUGGER about hybrids or electric cars I bring those topics up.....and usually get this face as an answer.... Bill, Not fair, All Tree Huggers know that Electricity comes from "WALLS"! Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 IN the long run, what needs to happen is the communities that have been built or re-designed since we became a commuter society need to be redesigned with far less a commute. Living in "bedroom communities" an hour or more away from work is not sustainable. We need to build housing developments of a quality commensurate with the work available NEXT TO the industrial and commercial "parks" so folks can live within a very short distance of work and not be in a dank ghetto..... Not saying a return to the "mill town" era, but better than we have when folks live as far from work as they do now. If ya wanna build a windmill factory that will employ 500 people, maybe we need to make it so ya have to locate it near, or build 500 units of housing the employees can afford, and TEAR DOWN a like number of housing units NOT near work. Yep, sounds like socialist, big brother, etc, but somehow we gotta break the 60 mile commute habit. THAT will allow all sorts of transit choices once we remove a large amount of the pressure of commuting fuel needs. MOST of the folks in my county work outside the county, an average commute around an hour, and public transit is non-existant..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooky Joe, SASS #24061 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Everything's a trade-off. I live in an area where a trip to a grocery store is minimum 28 miles r/t. An appointment with a medical specialist is anywhere from 218 to 248 miles r/t. Using my Audi A6 I get about 20mpg, but I can sit in it all day with no discomfort. Using my Toyota Matrix I get better than 30mpg. But an hour in its seat and my back is killing me. I'd rather pay for the extra gas and take a beating on the extra mpg to able to walk at the end of the trip. Same thing with E85, if I was able to use it. The price differential doesn't even come close to cover the loss of 20-25% mpg. The extra cost of a hybrid will take years before you begin to break even on the extra mpg. Because I prefer a station wagon,my next car will probably be a used Mercedes E-class diesel, or any other similar-sized car with a diesel engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Heck, I drive an old Civic, if I keep it tuned up, tires properly inflated and oil changed, I get maybe 36-38 on the highway, I'm gonna get a hybrid why? Nope. Oh, and I paid less than 8 grand for the civic years ago. I bought a 1982 Civic last year for $950 that had 62,020 original miles on it. It gets about 42 mpg on my 32 mile round trip work commute, and I've got as much as 54 mph on the Interstate. Factoring in the purchase price, insurance, timing belt, tensioner (recommended interval 60,000 miles/6 years), and water pump (It's right there, inexpensive, and easy to change when you do the timing belt, so most folks do it at the same time), it's already paid for itself and is now saving me over $6.50 a day in fuel costs over my F350 PSD. The timing belt/tensioner/water pump took no more than 2 1/2 hours to change, and the Civic uses about 3 quarts of gas vs. the truck's about 2 1/4 gallons of diesel. On longer trips the truck gets 18-20 mpg, but driving it only 16 miles each way, it barely gets warmed up and gets more like 14 mpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Fossil fuel is a hoax perpetrated by the money men. Demand is so low that the tanks in Cushing Oklahoma are at capacity. With no other commodity does the price go up in the face of glut. It's all fear and greedy speculation. Oil traders should be required to have a facility and be able to take delivery, not just bid it up and pocket profits. There is no such thing as fossil fuel. A bunch of dinosaurs didn't die in some jungle in vast numbers where Saudi Arabia is now. May as well believe in the Great Pumpkin. Oil is produced from methane under pressure deep in the bowels of the planet. Pressure forces it to the surface. Before man started sucking it up, it used to pool up on the surface. Oil exists on Titan and other planets and planetoids in the solar system. A bunch of dinosaurs didn't die out there. The supply of oil is inexhaustible, the planet makes it every day and pushes it up. Old oil fields that were shut-in because they were thot to be tapped out have regenerated and are being pumped again. There is plenty of oil. The price is kept ridiculously artificially high by the speculators and the powers that be. As a people we need to rise up and put a stop to such chicanery and manipualation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 To amplify on Lone Dog's comments, at one time if you wanted to play the oil game you had to have the facilities necessary. If you were bidding on the futures market for one million barrels of oil, you had to have the storage capacity for that one million barrel's worth. Then the rules changed during the Clinton years so that any speculator could play the game. Now a speculator can sit at their kitchen table with a laptop and play havoc with the market without having any vested interest in the industry at all. The Russians discovered something interesting following WWII about oil. It does regenerate. They dubbed it "abiotic oil". Read this => Article . Stalin set his boys to finding out all they could about oil since he didn't want to get caught short again should another war break out. That's why the fossil fuel dinosaur juice theory is pure bunk. Think about it - how many millions of those big lizards would have to have been on the planet, and how did they all happen to die in the same place, sink to several thousand feet below the surface, and then decompose into oil? If that theory were true, shouldn't cemeteries be absolute swamps of oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Approximate 75% of all electricity in the USA is generated by either coal fired or nuclear power plants. So all those battery powered cars are plugged into one of those power plants. Approximate 90% of all private passenger car miles have one, possible two passengers in them (driver included) and they haul nothing. People just need to get from Point A to Pont B comfortable and economical. As gas prices climb past $4 per gallon (which we are basically there), it would make economical sense to downsize the commuter car, the everyday drive car to something considerably smaller that gets higher gas mileage. Like a Honda Civic or a whole new smaller size. Have the Berthamobile parked in the garage or rent one as the need seldem arrises. The downside of driving a smaller, lighter car is that there will be more injury when in a car wreck. Safety engineering has come a long ways in the last 20 years, but that deer, elk, moose, Mack truck, that you run into are still the same size. People just need to consolidate their trips to town and stores. It is economic foolishness to make a dozen trips per day away from the house for a dozen different items. People mention living closer to work. Fine if you will work or will be employeed at the same place of work. That hasn't happened in 50 years. I am already on my sixth job in five different states and about seven differnt houses. As petroleum prices increase, the gap between plugging in a car to a power plant gets more economical. Natural gas? New power plants are being built to burn the stuff, even though it cost more, it is green friendly, which is what the vocal people want. Just wait till you see $4gallon electricity. Coming soon. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlicLee SASS #16638 Life Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Yall enjoy all your blah blah. You dont know whats in store for all of us, its starting now, its being built all over the united states, in every state everyone, anyone who has any kind of a vehicle with any kind of license plate. It started here in south florida and in other states working its way up. I told you all 10 years ago, every toll booth will be removed and replaced with aluminum gantry housing electronic cameras taking pictures of your license plate as you get on and get off. All toll booth operators will go to buildings already bought in most states they have worked in to send out your monthly bill for driving. No matter where you live if you drive on a toll road the bill will be sent to you. If you have a sun pass you already have billing, if not you will be required to give them your credit card to be charged for mileage, if however you dont give them a credit card you will be charged an extra fee for handling which will result in your giving over your credit card anyway. Added features for the govt, should you get on a toll road and travel 65 miles you will be charged the going rate, however should you go the 65 miles in 40 minutes guess what youll get,a speeding ticket, no more police cars will be needed, this will be saving money for all, should you not pay your mileage, can you figure out whats how they will get us, electronics is our downfall, your GPS and on star and stuff like that, they will shut off our cars,trucks, registration, etc. All this in a building near you already built and maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Slic - one of your Orwellian scenarios has already played out. Cops in California were chasing a guy, they called OnStar, and OnStar shut off the guy's car so the cops could nab him. Story This was in 2009. GM said at the time they hoped to have the car-killer on all OnStar vehicles by 2010. Still think that blue button is your friend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 If cops are chasing my GMC I hope Onstar will shut it down, 'cause it sure won't be me they are chasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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