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“Classic Military” as a new category?


Captain Lee Bishop

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Many of you have yet to see Baltimore Ed’s article on a proposed Classic Military category in the newest Chronicle.

In short, he proposes another new category for those who want to handle a category with a military impression. I won’t into the details, you can read it to see what he proposes. I’ll avoid picking apart his description of the “Wild Bunch” uniforms, other than to say pretty much every detail he mentions in his description is dead wrong.

I’m a Grand Army of the Frontier member and primarily have a military persona and most show in 1880s/90s uniforms. That said, I decry that explosion of new categories and feel we have more than enough as it is. If I supported this new category, I’d probably bring home a lot more 1st place ribbons at the local shoots as I’m often the only one there who would shoot in that category or would surely be in the top 2-3 only due to the numbers. As much as I’d like this, to me it’d only be fun if I shot against a LOT of shooters like that. To do this, I can go to one of the GAF annual shoots if I want to. I don’t need to do so at the local club. I’m against this for two primary reasons:

  • I do not want to see double actions and bottom feeders (semi autos, that is) in CAS.
  • We have more categories than is needed with SASS as it is.

I wanted people to see that there ARE people who’d benefit from a new category but are also not in favor of it.

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Howdy, Pards,

I, too, am a member of the Grand Army of the Frontier (GAF), and my personna is that of a cavalry officer (sometimes assigned to the Ordnance Dept.), from the 1880's. Frankly, I don't really see the need for another catagory, but IF we were to adopt "Classic Military" I think I'd make the following suggestions (by no means all inclusive): Allow the use of Trapdoor Springfields WITH REDUCED LOADS for the .45-70 (equivalent to .45 Colt's, though using the .45-70 case, so you don't tear up the standard targets), or Spencer Repeating Rifles (either rifle or carbine). Cut the time period off at 1910 (PRIOR to the issue of the M1911 pistol...i.e., stick with revolvers). Allow the use of DA revolvers. I've seen DA shooters, and with the rare exception, most two-hand held SA shooters can not only outshoot the former time-wise, but accuracy with the DA's was fairly miserable. (Note: If the ghost of Bill Jordan showed up, I'd NOT let HIM shoot DA! :D ) Limit the number of revolvers to ONE! Also, I'd NOT allow two-handed shooting of the pistols (unless there is a physical reason for the shooter to shoot two-handed).

 

The problem with these type guns, especially using the single shot rifles is the TIME each stage would take, and the limited number of shooters participating in any match would mean there might not be much competition. I AGREE with not having a separate trophy.

 

So far as uniforms are concerned, I'd allow about anything worn by troops IN THE FIELD during this era, which pretty much allows anything! So long as at least some semblance of a military field uniform was worn (hat, trowsers, sack coat or other tunic...etc.).

 

Just MHO.

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! Happy Chanukah! Merry Christmas! Happy Kwanza! (As applicable.) Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to all! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! :D

 

Your obdt servant,

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NO!

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Nope, can't see it. Those of us that like a military personna are already using it, and if it were truly "Classic" then like Trailrider has said, you need to limit to one revolver and a single shot rifle or Spencer. Altho' since we already have Wild Bunch I think the cut off should be 1865-1890.

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Why not add Classic Cartoon Cowboy while we're at it? There's plenty of old Popeye, Flinstones, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc... 'toons that could be used for inspiration.

 

We're hip deep in categories already, and the swamp's rising.

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Having not seen the Chroncle yet, I can't comment on the specifics of the article. But, I can make a few comments.

 

1. We don't need any new categories.

2. Plenty of pards use a military costume, or at least have a few military accessories in their costume. Why do we need to create a category for it.

3. Wild Bunch is Wild Bunch, no matter what form it takes. Some folks like it, some folks don't. I say let those who enjoy it have fun.

 

All of that being said, I have long felt that there are certain pre-1900 guns that should have a place in our sport that do not, or have a very limited one that should be expanded.

 

No new category is needed. But, I do think there is a place for a new *Side Match* that let's some of these of the period guns be used.

 

For lack of a better term, call it the "New Fangled Guns" side match.

 

All guns must be of a pre 1900 design.

 

Pistols- At least 1 must be a period DA revolver

Rifles- Must be an of the period design in a rifle caliber

Shotgun- May be any of the period design repeating shotgun, that is preloaded like a rifle.

 

No new category needed. Nothing nor normally used in a main match gets into a main match to "mess up" the flow of the game. Just a side match that lets those who have certain of the period design guns use them to have a little fun.

 

Everything is still pre-1900, so it's all still cowboy.

 

A speicalty shoot? That would be up to local clubs.

 

But, is even this side match needed? To be honest, if there is a club in your area that has a more open style of Wild Bunch shoot, then no, it's not.

 

My only real point is this. let's just go out and have fun with our old fashioned guns in as many ways as we can.

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Why not add Classic Cartoon Cowboy while we're at it? There's plenty of old Popeye, Flinstones, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc... 'toons that could be used for inspiration.

 

We're hip deep in categories already, and the swamp's rising.

 

 

YOU LEFT OUT YOSEMITE SAM you Varmint

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This idea comes up every five years. There is no reason to make it a separate category unless you want to really change the game we play and allow trapdoor springfields as main match rifles. It might do better as a side match but even then Plainsman is really the event for single shot rifles.

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instead of adding categories to SASS. Have yourself a separate match. (could be a separate posse with a sass shoot but scored completely separate) A GAF muster using the already established Battle rifle standard categories that cover the military arms use up to 1900. there is a class in there for shooting a pistol caliber lever gun also. set up with one handgun and rifle. reloads are part of the GAF. check out the battle rifle listing in the barracks. The GAF is a new way to enjoy CAS without detracting from SASS or NCOWS or W3G.

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NO! I can enjoy a classic military dress or tradition without generating another new catagory.

 

Trooper

 

2d

 

i think this is a trap we have fallen into: we confuse category building with personna building.

 

i can build any personna i want and still select any category i feel like. generally though i think the duelist categories fit my personna selection better

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No, I am not in favor of this move ....

 

And if it was to go it should be limited to guns in use prior to 1900 !!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Why not add Classic Cartoon Cowboy while we're at it? There's plenty of old Popeye, Flinstones, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc... 'toons that could be used for inspiration.

 

We're hip deep in categories already, and the swamp's rising.

 

Howdy, again, Pards,

I'm FOR it!!! As Curly Bill would say, "A capital idea!" Except that I don't look much like Rick O'Shay, and I don't do very well at growing a mustache, so Hipshot Percussion is out... :FlagAm: IIRC there were cartoon/comic strip versions of Hoppy, Roy & Dale, The Lone Ranger & Tonto, etc....

 

(Anybody got any more coal oil to throw on the fire?)

 

Happy Holidays, Pards! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! :blink:

 

Your Pard,

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NO! NO! NO!

 

Single action revolvers of a pre-1899 design only!!! No Military Category posses included at a regular shoot if they are shooting DA revolvers and bolt rifles!! Side match or a separate match if you just can't live without it. Same thing for Wild Bunch. I have refused to sign Ed's petition on a couple of occasions. Come to think of it he hasn't mentioned it lately. Guess I made my point. Please leave the game I have played for 15 years alone, thank you!! :FlagAm:

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I had a feeling that the responses would be strongly in the negative here.

If Ed sees this, I hope he understands I have nothing against him (I‘ve never met the man) or his reasoning. I’d love to shoot against others like he describes, but at a GAF shoot.

I just wanted to point out that it’s not always the people who wouldn’t shoot in the proposed category who say no to it. If CAS already had this category when I started, I would never shoot in any other category. But as it’s not there now, I feel it shouldn’t be there in the future either.

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I also say No to it at SASS matches.

There are too many categories already.

This all-inclusive mindset is killing CAS. If you want to shoot different guns, go to the organization that has them, or start a new organization. Dont keep trying to bring the marshmallows into the Vanilla ice cream club.

 

Trailrider is right. The shooter would take a long time comparatively, and heaven forbid you have a whole posse full.

 

GAF has the rules already for such matches. Have a GAF match, and have fun.

 

Dalton Masterson,

GAF (Bvt.) Major in command of Battalion of Western Nebraska

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I like the military look and will at times bring along my Spencer just to shoot it but see no reason for another category either. When I wear my civil war gear I usually shoot Frontier Cartridge and when I bring out the 72 Open Tops and Spencer I shoot Frontier Cartridge Duelist and have a great time. The GAF shoots work out for me so I will keep shooting the Spencer when it strikes me to do. My 2 cents worth. DC

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I really do not want to go out and buy a .38 DA revolver that spawned the 1911 and brought the 1873 back on active duty

 

There is no need for a category to shoot service rifles, if the cutoff is 1900 then we need to let in various martinis 92, 93, 95 and 98 mausers, Krags Lee's, Ross, Lebel, Schmidt Ruben, SMLE, the 99 and of course the rifle TR himself took to Cuba the 95 winchester

 

I will continue to dress as a post 1875 Infantry officer as I really want to continue wearing my crossed rifles, I shoot 7.5 inch barreled pistols as did everybody except the artillery. The fact we wear pistols on each side is a concession I make to conform to SASS Rules.

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My biggest complaint is that when we bring up the 'waaay out in left field' ideas like this, we just reinforce the notion of nothing new being allowed Its sad when a shooting game built around cowboy guns says no to a cowboy shooting style because of past excesses concerning non shooting categories. There is one category that is past due and far more applicable to what CAS is about than at least fifty percent of our current list of categories. It is about the correct time period, the correct weapons, the correct powder, a realistic shooting skill and last but not least, it is the coolest way to shoot two pistols yet and yall know it and you know the category I'm talking about.

 

Basic costuming has always been built into our game and we should never have allowed costume specific categories, those costumes were already optional for the shooter and have nothing to do with scoring beyond a search for more chances to win paper. There was a time that many Frontiersmen shooters wanted some costume provisions built in and were always told no, because it was about the shooting, and within a few years we broke that rule ourselves. A NO VOTE, this isnt even about cowboy guns, we would have to bring in new guns, ammo and another costume, that is already allowed optionally anyway, just to create another basically costume based cat. I say no SASS cat should exist that adds costume requirements beyond basic SASS rules and leave the better costumes as optional for those of us who desire to play that way. Turn back the clock on those frivolous categories and we wouldnt have such hard feelings about new ideas that concern cowboy guns and cowboy shooting.

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My biggest complaint is that when we bring up the 'waaay out in left field' ideas like this, we just reinforce the notion of nothing new being allowed Its sad when a shooting game built around cowboy guns says no to a cowboy shooting style because of past excesses concerning non shooting categories. There is one category that is past due and far more applicable to what CAS is about than at least fifty percent of our current list of categories. It is about the correct time period, the correct weapons, the correct powder, a realistic shooting skill and last but not least, it is the coolest way to shoot two pistols yet and yall know it and you know the category I'm talking about.

 

Basic costuming has always been built into our game and we should never have allowed costume specific categories, those costumes were already optional for the shooter and have nothing to do with scoring beyond a search for more chances to win paper. There was a time that many Frontiersmen shooters wanted some costume provisions built in and were always told no, because it was about the shooting, and within a few years we broke that rule ourselves. A NO VOTE, this isnt even about cowboy guns, we would have to bring in new guns, ammo and another costume, that is already allowed optionally anyway, just to create another basically costume based cat. I say no SASS cat should exist that adds costume requirements beyond basic SASS rules and leave the better costumes as optional for those of us who desire to play that way. Turn back the clock on those frivolous categories and we wouldnt have such hard feelings about new ideas that concern cowboy guns and cowboy shooting.

 

 

Not sure that I agree with every point you've made, but I have to tell you that this is the most comprehensive, dead-on-target argument concerning category proliferation I've ever read. Thank you, sir, for composing and posting this. I wish every SASS shooter had the opportunity to read what you wrote above (HINT: maybe you should make this a submission to the Chronicle). Our current category structure needs fixing. I'd like to think the vast majority of shooters believe this, too. Again, thank you for a great post.

 

Steeldust Dan

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Bob,

 

I also could have said, "Not sure I don't agree with every point you've made," but most people don't understand a double negative is a positive! Will take me awhile to digest all of it. Like I said before, I do know it was one of the best written statements concerning the proliferation of categories I've ever read. Again, consider submitting to the Chronicle.

 

Steeldust Dan

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