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“Classic Military” as a new category?


Captain Lee Bishop

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I read the article today. It was very well written and very well reasoned, and my first and last inclinations were both in the negative. It sounds more like something for another type of match. I don't believe it fits in a Single Action Shooting Society match...

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Why not add Classic Cartoon Cowboy while we're at it? There's plenty of old Popeye, Flinstones, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc... 'toons that could be used for inspiration.

 

We're hip deep in categories already, and the swamp's rising.

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!! :D:lol::lol:

BEST IDEE I've heard yet! (loud applause)

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We're gonna think ourselves into a corner, and when we look around we'd be all by ourselves with a first place medal.

 

... er ... no

 

CR

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Why not just dress the way you like to dress; shoot the guns you like to shoot the way you like to shoot them; have fun and let the categories take care of themselves?

 

Just the view from an old cavalryman's saddle...

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With the failure to add Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter to the official category list at the 2010 convention,

it is clear that clubs do not want any more new "Official" categories. This is the second year in a row where popular categories (in some areas of the country) failed to get on the list. When you consider regular categories, ladies categories and the juniors in our sport, we have 32 categories now. The majoirty of clubs feel this is enough. And some feel it is too much.

 

All clubs are permitted to develop their own categories and offer them at their shoots. Some potential categories will have a local following and enough support from their shooter base to make it worthwhile. But it is not prudent to make all clubs offer regionally supported categories.

 

Roo

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Ola'

 

As I discussed in a earlier thread on this subject. I was on a posse with two friends that shot this. First off, they are much, MUCH slower and on a small posse like we had, it did seriously affect the flow of the posse.

 

Secondly, when they shot, it was neat to watch but just didn't feel Cowboy. That is why I and most of us joined SASS. Bolt action rifles, DA revolvers, Fully loaded 97s...does that sound like what your impression of our sport is?

 

As a side match, fun match, etc, fine. But most importantly for me, it adds NOTHING to our sport.

 

I think SASS is getting desperate, we have to compete with the new, hot sports, all those post 9/11 tactical matches that are currently in vogue. And by attempting to be all things to all people, we lose our "soul" and the unique shooting sport we came to play...

 

 

Shooting my mouth off again, high velocity and big bore!

 

Snake

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A well thought out presentation and it would probably be a fun event but I just don't think it is right for a new SASS category. It would be great as a new event, just as Wild Bunch and Mounted Shooting are separate events.

 

Balckfoot :(

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I am all for it...what the heck...it looks like fun and maybe bring more shooters to the club. maybe it would be better as a side match like Wild Bunch and Plainsman is now...but I hope they dont legislate the fun out of it.

 

When we first started doing Wild Bunch at our local clubs they had two categories..."Pike" and "Dutch" one was for pencil barreled DA revolvers and the other was for automatic pistols....and any pre-1916 automatic pistol was allowed...it was fun seeing Lugers out there...Broomhandle mausers were also allowed if someone had them...it was more fun than anything...great to see Lugers out there shooting...everybody had fun and there were numerous smiles on faces...especially when the Lugers and such would not work right with lead bullets. My 13 year old son now wants a Luger and is interested in their history. but we cant shoot a Luger because folks decided it was "illegal" like we can get an unfair advantage out of a Luger

 

and as Coyote Calhoun said in the same issue. you can always give certificates to the winners...we are not giving away Cadillacs.....Everyone likes thier 15 minutes of fame and if they walk away with a smile on thier face they will most likely come back...(read...more entry fees for some clubs needing money.)

 

 

and Yes I shoot other venues too...

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Gentlemen of SASS, I have been thinking about a Classic Military Category for very many years and was pleased that Tex chose to print my proposal finally. But I am not surprised at what I have read today, I knew that the fur would fly. However, in my researching and the petitions that I asked many cowboys and cowgirls to sign last year, I had only a few who refused. Most said that CMC was not an issue and didn't interfere with their enjoyment of CAS at all, a few said what I've often read here, that SASS had too many categories. One said that the only new category he would be for is a .22 only category for our youngest cowpokes. As I said in my proposal, shooters in this category are only shooting against themselves and are only eligible for awards in this category, no shoot off or overall match awards. Long guns are limited to what is already allowed at SASS matches, no bolt guns or single shots. As far as Wild Bunch matches go , I already can shoot my 1911 dressed as Lyle G. or as a Blackjack Pershing trooper at the next WB match I attend as there are no dress requirements other than the standard SASS dress rules.

But as I said in the proposal, we grew up playing cowboys and indians, and we also played cops [read Sheriff or RCMP Tex, not Roaring 20's] and robbers and of course, army. This game we all love and play is part American history and part Hollywood fantasy. The history part goes from cap and ball revolvers to John Browning's 1911, from horses to Model T's, from the Civil War, to the Spanish American War to Pershing's Punitive Expedition, the fantasy part from William S. Hart to Roy, Hoppy, Duke and Clint. While there are periods that we all might think of as 'The Real West', it didn't start or end on any particular day or even any particular year. It just slowly changed as the country evolved and grew up. The most that we can ever hope to do in our sport and our own persona is to create a snapshot of the genuine, historical west or a snapshot of John Ford's west or of Sergio Leones west for a day and then create another different one a month from now. Standing at the loading table waiting our turn to play, one cowboy in a Townie top hat and vest wearing nickled, engraved Colts , the next guy is in a Confederate uniform with cap and ball revolvers, the next gal is in buckskins and the next looks like The Lone Ranger. It has always struck me as funny that we get so wrought up about what the shooter next to us is shooting or wearing or not shooting or not wearing and especially when that fellow is not even in our category. We are all so very unique, some shooters have speed, talent and skill and others hobble from haybale to haybale, slow as cold molasses and happy as hell to shoot a clean stage. What does it matter as long as we all have fun and stay safe. I've heard it said before that this is the most fun you can have with your 'uniform' on. I believe that it's true. I know that there are Rough Riders, Mounties, Royal Engineers, Troopers, Marines and Sailors out there and would urge military minded shooters to voice their thoughts and help me promote Classic Military. Some folk don't like things to change, I know that I don't but CAS will only continue to grow as a sport and mindset if it can evolve and change with new ideas just like the American west did. Just a word of thanks to The Wild Bunch for this great sport, you done real good. Thanks again, 'Give'em hell!! Pike" Baltimore Ed SASS #11754

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well said

 

________________

Yes well said. That said, it still upsets the high speed contestants that are more interested in competition and anything else about this game/sport.

 

I like the Military and all aspects of it. Adding it to SASS would just be an extension of WB, IMO.

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________________

Yes well said. That said, it still upsets the high speed contestants that are more interested in competition and anything else about this game/sport.

 

 

And you would know this how????

 

I see alot of no's. And most are not from the so called high speed contestants.

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Guest Hardly Dangerous Updated

Don't really see the need for it. The Wild Bunch category is there and I just don't see the need to complicate things any more than that. By the way, I like Wild Bunch, just don't shoot it much. Why don't the clubs who want a military category just create it on the local level for their own enjoyment?

HD

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I disagree with the Articles OP, Baltimore Ed.

 

CAS/SASS doesn't have to "change" to remain viable. But to attract/lure new shooters for a profit making enterprise, SASS started WB matches to lure IPSC/IPDA shooters to our sport.

 

And unfortunetly we have had nothing BUT change since I started, two handguns, new catagories, new equipment, endless tweaking of the basic rules, Costuming requirements, what is enough smoke, ad nausem. When does it stop?

 

By trying to be all things to all people, we risk losing our soul. What made this special is for me is now becoming just another Shooting Sport.

 

If as you state, enjoyment was the only criteria for our shooting, Zoot Shooters could participate as well, after all they use 1911s and 1897s. So the Thompson shouldn't matter since they're not competing directly against you right?

 

The line against dilution has to be drawn somewhere. This is the Single Action Shooting Society for the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting. That seems to spell it out for me.

 

Just like the old saying about Pornography, I may not be able to define it here but I know what Cowboy Action Shooting is when I see it and your proposed catagory is NOT it!

 

Shooting my sport off again, high velocity and big bore!

 

Snake

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I have never understood the anti-more-categories attitude, personally. If enough interest exists and folks want to compete against each other in a category, how is that a negative for the game?

 

When B Western was proposed as a category, I voted for it, but thought to myself, "Why, no one's going to want to shoot it!" :P I was wrong! ;) It has added depth and interest to our sport.

 

The defeat of the proposal to make FCGF a category was unfortunate, IMHO. New categories help keep the game fresh for folks, and that can be very important for the long term health of the sport.

 

 

Baltimore Ed, thanks for a well written and reasoned article. The SASS community is bigger than the WIRE! :FlagAm:

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I really think we need to add enough categories so that every shooter is in a different category. Just like t-ball, everybody wins. "When everyone is special, no one is special".

 

As Colonel Dan said, just wear and shoot what you what and don't worry about the category.

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I would like to see a "Frontier Regulars" side match with percussion revolvers or cartridge conversions of same, paired with a Colt 3rd Dragoon, 1860 Army or 1851 Navy with shoulder stock as the long arm. But no new categories are needed, IMHO. No hostility intended.

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Wild Bunch is not a SASS shooting category.

 

It is a new and separate type of match. Some clubs have made up a Wild bunch Category but, it is far from a SASS Official Category for SASS Cowboy Action Matches.

 

I am a very strong advocate of no more categories until we repair the entire category structure. Currently, we have more categories than some matches have shooters.

 

And, in my ancient mind, if it ain't cowboy then it does not belong in Cowboy Action Matches.

 

I proposed Ed's category several years ago and it fell on it's behind.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that this would fail if voted upon by the masses, not just the folks on the wire.

 

Clubs have the option of creating their own categories. And for the immediate future, I don't see any new categories being added to the Official SASS Category list. The membership, as a whole, does not want them.

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I have never understood the anti-more-categories attitude, personally. If enough interest exists and folks want to compete against each other in a category, how is that a negative for the game?

 

When B Western was proposed as a category, I voted for it, but thought to myself, "Why, no one's going to want to shoot it!" :lol: I was wrong! :D It has added depth and interest to our sport.

 

The defeat of the proposal to make FCGF a category was unfortunate, IMHO. New categories help keep the game fresh for folks, and that can be very important for the long term health of the sport.

 

 

Baltimore Ed, thanks for a well written and reasoned article. The SASS community is bigger than the WIRE! ;)

 

Just to help you understand the attitude of this "anti-more-categories" member - Have you ever had the joyful experience of attending and staying for the whole Awards ceremonies at either WR or EoT?

 

Oy!!!

 

Now if all the folks did their awards ceremonies like The Dooley Gang does theirs, then I'd be all for a few more catagories...otherwise, no.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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Just to help you understand the attitude of this "anti-more-categories" member - Have you ever had the joyful experience of attending and staying for the whole Awards ceremonies at either WR or EoT?

 

Oy!!!

 

Now if all the folks did their awards ceremonies like The Dooley Gang does theirs, then I'd be all for a few more catagories...otherwise, no.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

 

+1 on the Dooley Gang! :D

 

Yes, I have attended the whole awards ceremony at WR and EOT a number of times, and "Oy" does not begin to cover it! :lol:

 

Do not mistake a tolerance for categories to be an endorsement for the current practice of awarding 10+ deep in all categories, or adding categories just to provide more opportunities for more folks to bring home "bling.". It amazes me that a category with 10 folks gets 10 buckles. In addition, I think "recognition" (cerificate or round of applause) is sufficient for lower represented categories. IMHO, Categories may not be the problem. I think it's time to look at a serious restructuring of categories and how we manage awards and recognition.

 

If you have been to an awards ceremony for Wild Bunch Action Shooting, then you will see another paradigm at work!

 

See you at WR and EOT. ;)

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  • 7 months later...

I have shot in 1875 US Marine Corps uniforms for many years and have not found a need for an especial category.

 

Mud Marine

 

 

 

Many of you have yet to see Baltimore Ed’s article on a proposed Classic Military category in the newest Chronicle.

In short, he proposes another new category for those who want to handle a category with a military impression. I won’t into the details, you can read it to see what he proposes. I’ll avoid picking apart his description of the “Wild Bunch” uniforms, other than to say pretty much every detail he mentions in his description is dead wrong.

I’m a Grand Army of the Frontier member and primarily have a military persona and most show in 1880s/90s uniforms. That said, I decry that explosion of new categories and feel we have more than enough as it is. If I supported this new category, I’d probably bring home a lot more 1st place ribbons at the local shoots as I’m often the only one there who would shoot in that category or would surely be in the top 2-3 only due to the numbers. As much as I’d like this, to me it’d only be fun if I shot against a LOT of shooters like that. To do this, I can go to one of the GAF annual shoots if I want to. I don’t need to do so at the local club. I’m against this for two primary reasons:

  • I do not want to see double actions and bottom feeders (semi autos, that is) in CAS.
  • We have more categories than is needed with SASS as it is.

I wanted people to see that there ARE people who’d benefit from a new category but are also not in favor of it.

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We need Elder Statesman Silver 75+ and Cattle Baron 80+ with no shooting style restrictions before we play around wth more costume categories.

 

 

Wild Bunch is not a SASS shooting category.

 

It is a new and separate type of match. Some clubs have made up a Wild bunch Category but, it is far from a SASS Official Category for SASS Cowboy Action Matches.

 

I am a very strong advocate of no more categories until we repair the entire category structure. Currently, we have more categories than some matches have shooters.

 

And, in my ancient mind, if it ain't cowboy then it does not belong in Cowboy Action Matches.

 

I proposed Ed's category several years ago and it fell on it's behind.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that this would fail if voted upon by the masses, not just the folks on the wire.

 

Clubs have the option of creating their own categories. And for the immediate future, I don't see any new categories being added to the Official SASS Category list. The membership, as a whole, does not want them.

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There is no bigger military history buff here than me. Like Col Dan, I'm an old cavalry trooper. I enjoy seeing GAF members accurately attired at matches.

I like the history, uniforms, and equipage from all periods from 1775 on. I enjoyed doing extensive research on the 2rd Dragoon regt years ago when I was with the Park Service. I've visited forts and battlefields all over the country. I just can't pass one by.

 

But, that is not what attracted me to SASS. I am in agreement with Capt Bishop. I see no need for a new category.

 

 

If you are a proponent of Ed's idea, I suggest you poll the members of your local club.

 

 

I am a very strong advocate of no more categories until we repair the entire category structure. Currently, we have more categories than some matches have shooters.

Yup.

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I think SASS is teetering on the edge of losing credibility as a "serious" shooting sport because of the proliferation of categories and the passing out of awards like candy at a parade (I know, it's not supposed to be serious... it's supposed to be for fun, but the way people get so worked up about awards I start to question that sometimes). That said, I'm also not against having categories and passing out awards, but only if they make real sense and add something to the shooting event. I think you've got to pick and choose what really makes a difference and what is just nitpicky. We're almost to the point where I expect to see something as ridiculous as "49er Classic Black Powder One Armed Gunfighter Underwater Basketweaving" category (and of course there has to be a ladies' version of that as well!)

 

Just my "trouble"some two cents.

 

 

 

Many of you have yet to see Baltimore Ed’s article on a proposed Classic Military category in the newest Chronicle.

In short, he proposes another new category for those who want to handle a category with a military impression. I won’t into the details, you can read it to see what he proposes. I’ll avoid picking apart his description of the “Wild Bunch” uniforms, other than to say pretty much every detail he mentions in his description is dead wrong.

I’m a Grand Army of the Frontier member and primarily have a military persona and most show in 1880s/90s uniforms. That said, I decry that explosion of new categories and feel we have more than enough as it is. If I supported this new category, I’d probably bring home a lot more 1st place ribbons at the local shoots as I’m often the only one there who would shoot in that category or would surely be in the top 2-3 only due to the numbers. As much as I’d like this, to me it’d only be fun if I shot against a LOT of shooters like that. To do this, I can go to one of the GAF annual shoots if I want to. I don’t need to do so at the local club. I’m against this for two primary reasons:

  • I do not want to see double actions and bottom feeders (semi autos, that is) in CAS.
  • We have more categories than is needed with SASS as it is.

I wanted people to see that there ARE people who’d benefit from a new category but are also not in favor of it.

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Howdy,

 

Like most here, I do not believe that a new category is needed. I dress as an artillery NCO in a uniform which covers 1858 to around 1873. Sometimes I shoot open tops and a Spencer just to make it interesting. I have found however, that shooting FCD is good enough for me. I am not a competitive shooter. My wife, Merlot, and I do this for relaxation. There are others at the various clubs in Missouri and Kansas that also dress in a military uniform. But those I have spoken to about this do not believe SASS is in need of more categories.

Like Sweet Trouble, I'm afraid that SASS is becoming a joke to other shooting sports, although I, personally, don't give a hoot. But I also believe the whole "rewards" thing has gotten out of hand. I have received 3 awards since I started shooting and that was because there were only 2 or 3 shooters in my category. It does not impress me to win an award that way, so I don't need another category where there will probably be less than 5 shooters. When looking at regional matches or something like EOT, perhaps a military side match is a possibility, but for the most part, I just don't think there are going to be enough shooters at most matches to make this or any other new categories viable.

 

Just my opinion, which is worth about the same as everyone else.

 

Shakey

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Pards, it's persona. Rhymes with Ozona (a lil town in TX).

 

Not personna (perSOHNa). Personna is (or was [maybeso defunct]) a razor company.

 

What I wanta know is how do ya dredge up a thread from 8 months ago? I can only go back about a month or so. ??

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I wanna a class for gentlemen that joined the Army as Officers, got drunk, spent all of their pay on painted ladies and whiskley, got bored and deserted their men in battle. They were arrested and court-martialed, stripped of all symbols of their former rank and had their sword broken in half. They now roam wild west boom towns with a Bible in one hand and a 45 in the other while saving saloon ladies from the wild and wicked ways and carrying this stupid broken sword.

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If some people want to shoot "military action" why not to add this to the WBAS and enlarge the period for the "uniforms" from the CW to post WW1... and they can have all the categs they need or want.

 

But please let CAS as it is now with already too many categories.

 

my 2 cents....

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If some people want to shoot "military action" why not to add this to the WBAS and enlarge the period for the "uniforms" from the CW to post WW1... and they can have all the categs they need or want.

But please let CAS as it is now with already too many categories.

my 2 cents....

PUHLEEZE!!! 'Cause the 1911 don't fit in that period 1860 to 1910.

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