Is Liberty Safe?

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

Not suggesting anything, just putting the info out there for your personal consideration.

[Possum Stu]

I bought mine in 2017 before this change in ownership. They won’t be getting another cent out of me. 

[PowderRiverCowboy]

31 minutes ago, Possum Stu said:

I bought mine in 2017 before this change in ownership. They won’t be getting another cent out of me. 

  
 

 Is your electronic keypad or combo dial ? If  combo dial you can request they purge your info . (If they really do ???) 

 

[Dantankerous]

1 hour ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

Not suggesting anything, just putting the info out there for your personal consideration.

 

 

Oh, I think I see what you're not suggesting.

 

 

 

[Mister Badly]

They complied with a legal warrant. The cops could have cut it open. Easy to do.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

[PowderRiverCowboy]

41 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

They complied with a legal warrant. The cops could have cut it open. Easy to do.

They were not named in the warrant therefore had zero reason to comply .  I know just doing my job 

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

They complied with a legal warrant. The cops could have cut it open. Easy to do.

The company did comply with a legal warrant, and the safe could have been cut open. It only took me 15 minutes to open a safe (at my lady's request); the only tool I had was a tire iron from her truck. Once I had it open, I saw how I could have cut the time way down.

 

One thing to know is all of these so-called safes are really just "residential security cabinets." The are not real safes.

 

As to the opening post with all the drama about Liberty's parent company and the democrat party donations... With that type of tone, I generally go verify the information myself, for instance the democrat numbers might be true but the republican numbers are the same and were omitted to make an emotional point.

 

In this case, I find Monomoy Partners did also donate to the republican party... One donation in one year in the amount of $2,500. I did not verify the $400,000 multi-year total but it is not an obvious lie.

 

A casual review shows the capitol management company's party political donations heavily favor democrat candidates.

 

I find no fault on the part of Liberty Safe for complying with a court order, but will certainly respect anyone's future choice as to brand selection.

 

Just remember if these cabinets can not hold up to a tire iron, they are certainly no match for a grinder.

[Warden Callaway]

 

[John Kloehr]

If you have a Liberty safe, you can request removal of your safe's access code records:

 

https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/combination-removal

 

Once removed, the company will not be able to provide you the access code should you lose it. They won't be able to give it to law enforcement either. Nor can it be found in a hack or breach of Liberty's computer network.

 

But the first question is if you have a Liberty safe... See here for other brands built by Liberty:

 

https://www.libertysafe.com/pages/brands-by-liberty

 

And keep in mind some of those listed companies get safes from several makers, so some homework and verification is still required.

 

On edit: Also, some safes may say Liberty but they may be made by someone else. Whatever is silk-screened on the safe door may have nothing to do with the actual manufacturer. i learned this when shopping for safes a couple years ago.

Edited September 7 by John Kloehr

[Warden Callaway]

Whole thing sounds fishy to me.  Wouldn't you expect the FBI to have some way of cracking a common gun safe?  If they had a search warrant,  they could break into it with brute force.   

[John Kloehr]

13 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Whole thing sounds fishy to me.  Wouldn't you expect the FBI to have some way of cracking a common gun safe?  If they had a search warrant,  they could break into it with brute force.   

I'm sure it took longer to use the warrant to get the code than to grind a panel off the side.

 

I can only speculate on reasons one might prefer to use the front door...

[Warden Callaway]

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

I eventually got some idea of what the post was about by the time I'd read the entire thread, but only some idea.

 

Some of us aren't mind readers.

[Sedalia Dave]

Every safe I have ever owned had the combo changed when I took possession. Not even the locksmith knows what the new combination is.

[John Kloehr]

Just now, Sedalia Dave said:

Every safe I have ever owned had the combo changed when I took possession. Not even the locksmith knows what the new combination is.

This ^^^^

 

When I was shopping, I recalled (from years ago) combo safes came in two flavors. There was a quality combination lock on the market and you could change the combination. There was also a crap chinesium lock which was known to fail, and the combination could not be changed.

 

When I went safe shopping, I could not find any combination lock which allowed me to change the combination, only the electronic lock safes. I bought an electronic lock safe and it had my new code on day one.

 

I am seeing reports using the words "back door." A back door would be a code you and I do not know about and can not change, and would be handed over to LE when presented with a warrant. I know of no safe maker with a back door. If a safe maker is ever shown to have an actual back door, that company will never sell another safe and will be bankrupted by a class action suit.

 

It was not a back door. It was either a combination lock which could not be changed or it was an electronic lock and the owner did not change the code. Unless future details show otherwise, Liberty handed over the same code or combination the original owner was provided.

 

I do not expect me changing my code would prevent LE from getting into my safe. This is really not what the lock is for. The purpose of the lock is to prevent opening without leaving signs of forcible entry. Nobody gets in without me knowing it happened. If you really and truly want to prevent entry, buy a real safe.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

22 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Every safe I have ever owned had the combo changed when I took possession. Not even the locksmith knows what the new combination is.

+1

 

The only place the new combo is recorded is a safety deposit box.

 

I don't trust electronic locks. Electronics need power and power- whether battery or hard wired- will eventually fail.  As Liberty just proved, there's likely a default pass code built in to them. 

 

I have are mechanical locks for exactly those reasons.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

This is sad.  Liberty Safes was the number one safe brand we used to sell when I was with Wade's Eastside Guns & Bellevue Indoor Shooting Range in Bellevue, WA. in the 1990's.

[watab kid]

i was of the opinion that the mfgr should stay out of whatever investigation was going on , now i think i there must be more to the story , i heard of it on the radio talk show this afternoon , 

 

IIRC phone mfgrs dont help in investigations , let the FBI do its own work 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Liberty is owned by Monomoy Capital who donated tons of money to democrats so there’s that ……just sayin….take it for what it’s worth

[DocWard]

For me, it comes down to what I would prefer. If LE has a warrant, and I am unavailable (or uncooperative) , would I prefer they open things via the lock, or by destroying it? Would you prefer they unlock your front door or just smash it in?

 

All of this assumes a legal warrant.

[Possum Stu]

15 hours ago, PowderRiverCowboy said:

  
 

 Is your electronic keypad or combo dial ? If  combo dial you can request they purge your info . (If they really do ???) 

 

Mine’s the keypad type. I’ll have to  call them, although I really don’t trust them at this point. Your meme is spot-on. 

[PowderRiverCowboy]

57 minutes ago, Possum Stu said:

Mine’s the keypad type. I’ll have to  call them, although I really don’t trust them at this point. Your meme is spot-on. 

 At least on my Cannon the Keypads you can change yourself so they dont have it listed , Of course thats not saying they dont all have some sort of  master override code 

[Buckshot Bob]

3 hours ago, DocWard said:

For me, it comes down to what I would prefer. If LE has a warrant, and I am unavailable (or uncooperative) , would I prefer they open things via the lock, or by destroying it? Would you prefer they unlock your front door or just smash it in?

 

All of this assumes a legal warrant.

My understanding from what I have read is that the fbi did have a warrant to go in the safe but nothing was mentioned in the warrant about Liberty. The fbi just called and Liberty gave them what they wanted. Unlike Apple who even with a warrant has told the feds to go pound sand many times. To me Liberty not valuing the privacy of their customers is where all the butt hurt is coming from. Which I can understand, I know just about anything can be broken into and we all can afford different levels of security. But the whole point of buying a safe is to keep people from accessing things you don’t want others to have access to. 
I have to think most of Liberty’s customers are gun owners, I own 2 . I see this as the bud light moment for whomever made this decision at Liberty. I think it’s going to have a big impact upon their sales . I feel sorry for their dealers and their employees that management is this short sighted. Just like I feel sorry for the people making and distributing bud light. In both cases management has a responsibility to their employees and investors that they are definitely not living up to . 

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

Might be a market for "Bud Light" skins to cover the opening of your safe. 

[Buckshot Bob]

 

[bgavin]

Q:  if the FBI has a search warrant for this guy in LA is the phone company obligated to surrender all his phone records without a warrant presented specifically to the phone company?  
 

in other words is a warrant a blank check for a fishing expedition?  I thought not, but today I’m not so certain.

Edited September 8 by bgavin

[DocWard]

6 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

My understanding from what I have read is that the fbi did have a warrant to go in the safe but nothing was mentioned in the warrant about Liberty. The fbi just called and Liberty gave them what they wanted. Unlike Apple who even with a warrant has told the feds to go pound sand many times. To me Liberty not valuing the privacy of their customers is where all the butt hurt is coming from. Which I can understand, I know just about anything can be broken into and we all can afford different levels of security. But the whole point of buying a safe is to keep people from accessing things you don’t want others to have access to. 
I have to think most of Liberty’s customers are gun owners, I own 2 . I see this as the bud light moment for whomever made this decision at Liberty. I think it’s going to have a big impact upon their sales . I feel sorry for their dealers and their employees that management is this short sighted. Just like I feel sorry for the people making and distributing bud light. In both cases management has a responsibility to their employees and investors that they are definitely not living up to . 

So, to clarify, if law enforcement has a legal warrant, and will  get in, whether your safe or through your front door, your preference is for them to smash their way through, causing costly damage you may bear the brunt of, instead of finding a less damaging solution? Mind you, this could also include damage to items that have strong sentimental value in addition to intrinsic value.

 

 I believe the Apple analogy is misplaced. There’s a difference between being forced to work (meaning significant cost) to develop a way to break in, and simply turning over what already exists.

[Buckshot Bob]

22 minutes ago, DocWard said:

So, to clarify, if law enforcement has a legal warrant, and will  get in, whether your safe or through your front door, your preference is for them to smash their way through, causing costly damage you may bear the brunt of, instead of finding a less damaging solution? Mind you, this could also include damage to items that have strong sentimental value in addition to intrinsic value.

 

 I believe the Apple analogy is misplaced. There’s a difference between being forced to work (meaning significant cost) to develop a way to break in, and simply turning over what already exists.

I didn’t say that’s what I want. If they have a warrant and my lawyer told me everything is legit I probably would just give them the combo . “Providing that’s what my lawyer advised” . But it doesn’t matter what I want, or you want. It matters what the person they are serving the warrant on wants. And I think the Apple analogy is spot on . Through their actions they are telling their customers that when you purchase a IPhone your privacy/security is more important than a government fishing expedition. Liberty is telling theirs that we will comply with a government request that invades your privacy. Even when we weren’t named in the warrant. 
And maybe there is some legal advantage to making them break into everything. My little sister is a lawyer and used to be a PA . She has always told me to never consent to a search of your house or vehicle without a warrant. Maybe saying go ahead gives up a legal advantage. I know if I had been at the Jan 6th protests I would have talked to a lawyer a long time ago with the way they are running them down, maybe this guy did. I just think this was a very poor business decision by Liberty management. And their actions are going to cost their employees and investors. 

[DocWard]

6 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

I didn’t say that’s what I want. If they have a warrant and my lawyer told me everything is legit I probably would just give them the combo . “Providing that’s what my lawyer advised” . But it doesn’t matter what I want, or you want. It matters what the person they are serving the warrant on wants. And I think the Apple analogy is spot on . Through their actions they are telling their customers that when you purchase a IPhone your privacy/security is more important than a government fishing expedition. Liberty is telling theirs that we will comply with a government request that invades your privacy. Even when we weren’t named in the warrant. 
And maybe there is some legal advantage to making them break into everything. My little sister is a lawyer and used to be a PA . She has always told me to never consent to a search of your house or vehicle without a warrant. Maybe saying go ahead gives up a legal advantage. I know if I had been at the Jan 6th protests I would have talked to a lawyer a long time ago with the way they are running them down, maybe this guy did. I just think this was a very poor business decision by Liberty management. And their actions are going to cost their employees and investors. 

Look at what I first wrote about being unavailable or uncooperative. Meaning, you aren’t around or your lawyer is fine with you being held in contempt. At the point we’re discussing, your Fourth Amendment rights are moot, again assuming a valid warrant.

 

If you don’t recognize the difference between Apple and this particular case, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 I was once an assistant prosecutor also, and I agree, no warrant, no search. Again, that is distinguishable from the present.

[Buckshot Bob]

6 minutes ago, DocWard said:

Look at what I first wrote about being unavailable or uncooperative. Meaning, you aren’t around or your lawyer is fine with you being held in contempt. At the point we’re discussing, your Fourth Amendment rights are moot, again assuming a valid warrant.

 

If you don’t recognize the difference between Apple and this particular case, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 I was once an assistant prosecutor also, and I agree, no warrant, no search. Again, that is distinguishable from the present.

I’m good with agreeing to disagree 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

Warrants aren't 'fishing expeditions'.

 

The analogy between cooperating with the FBI when they show a valid warrant to Budweiser's use of a 'transgender influencer' to advertise beer escapes me.

[DocWard]

Just now, Buckshot Bob said:

I’m good with agreeing to disagree 

So long as we’re civil about it, so am I. Barkeep! One of whatever Buckshot Bob is drinking, on my tab!

[Buckshot Bob]

3 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

Warrants aren't 'fishing expeditions'.

 

The analogy between cooperating with the FBI when they show a valid warrant to Budweiser's use of a 'transgender influencer' to advertise beer escapes me.

Two bad business decisions. And Apple didn’t make the same bad business decision that Liberty did. And Apple was the one with government pressure on them to comply 

[John Kloehr]

54 minutes ago, PowderRiverCowboy said:

 At least on my Cannon the Keypads you can change yourself so they dont have it listed , Of course thats not saying they dont all have some sort of  master override code 

They don't have some master override code. Liberty turned over the original combination as manufactured.

 

There might be a problem with the warrant and I would not let Liberty off the hook if  they should have insisted on the Feds dotting their Is and crossing there Ts to go get a properly worded warrant demanding Liberty provide the combination for the specific safe. At the same time, I do not think a judge would have refused to do so. Frankly, I also do not as yet know this to be or not be the case.

 

There might be a chance for this Jan 6 suspect to challenge any evidence resulting from fruit of the poisoned tree (contents of the safe). IANAL.

 

As to Apple, Apple did not have a way to break the security. By comparison, liberty went to the customer support database, punched in the safe serial number, and retrieved the combination. And when some 3rd party did break into that phone, then Apple reverse engineered the hack and created a software update to prevent the hack in the future. But Apple also advertises security as a feature.

 

Any Liberty safe owner has had every opportunity to know the original combination was available through customer service.

 

As a safe owner, i did change my combination. I don't care if the maker has the original record, that combo is no longer any good. As to a back door... Another code which will open my safe even if I change the combo... This would be market suicide for the company, a breach of this information in a hack would make every safe they manufactured worthless.

 

Now as to what will happen in the market... Liberty is now owned (at least partially) by a capitol investment company favoring liberal candidates. I have been thinking and wondering why an essentially anti-gun investment firm (inference by political funding) would invest in a gun safe company... Might it be to make a profit by lobbying for laws to require "safe storage" thereby selling lots of safes to gun owners?

 

I think this is worth considering when shopping for a safe in the future, especially if legislation requires you to spend the money in the next couple years. As if having a locked front door on your house would not already satisfy safe storage requirements.