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Wait... What ?? Why can't I use these in My Henry Big Boy ?


Sudsy
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Bought these quite a while ago, finally cracked the box open to whip up some 38+p's

When I opened the box saw the "Don't use in a tubular magazine" warning

They're not round nose, not pointed, so why not ??

 

 

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Just a guess, but looking at the bullet, it appears to NOT have a cannelure.

 

Therefore, bullet recess down in the case is a possibility when put in a mag tube under strong spring pressure.

 

If that bullet were to be pushed down inside the case, pressures will spike...... and the results might not be to nice.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I shoot plenty of brass without cannelures, BUT all my brass is crimped well. This brass doesn’t look like it has much crimp at all.

 

I do also, BUT..... my 'guess' was based on why the ammo manufacturer advised against them being used in a tubular mag rifle.

 

That warning on the box seems that the manufacturer is afraid of 'detonation' in the tube, which does seem

strange to me due to the wide flat point.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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If you want to play on the safest side, shoot them in revolvers.

 

Look at the photo and then open it in a separate tab so you can see a larger version.  The crimp looks about right then.  As mentioned, the nose should be fine since it is relatively flat and has rounded edges.  So they may be fine with light loads, but as others have noted below, the harder surface would increase the risk over lead. 

 

If you have a reloader, you could re-crimp them just a tiny bit tighter to have a little more confidence. 

With TMJ bullets, they won't crimp as deeply as they would with softer lead but will still have very good tension on the bullet.
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Edited by Marauder SASS #13056
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In the late 70s/early 80s, when pistol silhouette was real popular, Sierra brought out a 44 caliber 240 grain full metal jacket flat point bullet. The purpose was to load in 44 magnum revolvers and shoot pigs at 200 meters.

 

People loaded them in 44 magnum cartridges and put them in Ruger rifles with the tubular magazine, and had magazine detonations.

 

Sierra continued to make the bullet, but they put a notice in every box telling about the Ruger tubular magazine rifle detonations, and warning DO NOT USE THESE BULLETS IN TUBULAR MAGAZINES.

 

A copper jacket is not going to give at all, like a lead bullet nose would.

 

Based on Sierra's experience, I would expect that every full metal jacket pistol bullet has a warning with it not to use in a tubular magazine.

 

That way when you do it, and you blow up your magazine and blow your left hand off, you can't sue. You were warned not to.

 

It has nothing to do with the bullet slipping back, and everything to do with magazine detonation.

 

You want to load truncated cone bullets in your tubular magazine? Buy lead, not jacketed. Simple.

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Could this be a generic sticker that goes on all their boxes?

@Sudsy

Those are your hand loads, correct? 

What you bought were just bullets, not cartridges, correct?

 

If so I would go ahead and shoot them, though I prefer a heavier crimp. 

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Looking at ALL the pictures, the round(s) have sufficient crimp.  The flat point is sufficiently "flat."  I use to source a  130Gr Truncated Cone shaped exactly like that.  Fed thru my .38 rifles like grain thru a goose.  All that said:

 

The Mfgr. of the subject bullets is applying some SOA notification.  The way .38 cartridges "tilt" in most tubular magazines might/could allow sufficient angle of the dangle for the nose to impact a primer just right with sufficient recoil.  The result would not be fun at all.

 

A BIG PLUS ONE FOR ALPO 

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Fellars, the cartridge is RIMMED, therefore the cartridge won't lay flat inside the tube, and will be angled slightly, and with the hard copper jacketing (as compared to even hard lead projectiles), its contact with the primer in front of it in the tube may just be enough to collapse the primer and set it off.  As an exaggerated example, these .30-30 rounds are angled such that the point of the bullet doesn't fully engage the primer of the round ahead of it.  The top row are actually factory round nose bullets, but have always been safe in my mdl 94s...

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1 hour ago, Alpo said:

In the late 70s/early 80s, when pistol silhouette was real popular, Sierra brought out a 44 caliber 240 grain full metal jacket flat point bullet. The purpose was to load in 44 magnum revolvers and shoot pigs at 200 meters.

 

People loaded them in 44 magnum cartridges and put them in Ruger rifles with the tubular magazine, and had magazine detonations.

 

Sierra continued to make the bullet, but they put a notice in every box telling about the Ruger tubular magazine rifle detonations, and warning DO NOT USE THESE BULLETS IN TUBULAR MAGAZINES.

 

A copper jacket is not going to give at all, like a lead bullet nose would.

 

Based on Sierra's experience, I would expect that every full metal jacket pistol bullet has a warning with it not to use in a tubular magazine.

 

That way when you do it, and you blow up your magazine and blow your left hand off, you can't sue. You were warned not to.

 

It has nothing to do with the bullet slipping back, and everything to do with magazine detonation.

 

You want to load truncated cone bullets in your tubular magazine? Buy lead, not jacketed. Simple.

Especially if there is a high primer in a case.

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Grifff, interesting idea.
I don't remember seeing any warning from Hornady about not using their XTP bullets in tubular magazines.
Perhaps a wider meplat avoids any tilt exposure in the magazine?

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22 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Grifff, interesting idea.
I don't remember seeing any warning from Hornady about not using their XTP bullets in tubular magazines.
Perhaps a wider meplat avoids any tilt exposure in the magazine?

ISTR the XTP bullets are HPs, and as such are generally not recommended for tubular magazines.  Although those with exposed lead in the nose have never proven to be an issue for me.  I happen to use the heck out of the Sierra 125 grain HP in my .30-30s for coyote control.  In the case of Hornady's Leverevolution ammo, the "gummy bear" consistency of the tip is soft enough for use in tubular magazines, and part of their "raison d'être", the other being improved ballistics.  I do believe that they're not recommended to for storage in a tube magazine, as eventually the tip will take a deformed "set" and alter downrange trajectory.

Edited by Griff
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Here is a first had account of a magazine detonation.

 

<quote>

I take it a bit personally when so called "experts" claim that tube magazine explosions are either an urban legend or at least the risks and danger involved is overblown. After reconstructive facial and dental surgery, I walk around every day with permanent scars and nerve damage to remind me: Magazine explosions are a very real occurrence that should be taken seriously.

Sunday 23 May 2004, Delta Sportsman's Range, Delta Junction, Alaska. Rossi M92 .44 Mag. New W-W cases, Fed 150, 200 gr plain base cast lead FLAT nose (and not a particularly hard alloy), 11.0 gr Unique. 8 rounds were loaded into the magazine. On firing the second shot, all 6 rounds remaining in the magazine tube went off at once. Look at the photos and decide for yourself if you'd say they detonated. Multiple brass and lead fragments and powder residue particles were removed from my face in several surgeries over the next week. Minute lead, brass and powder particles worked their way to the surface over the course of the next year. The force of the explosion drove the magazine follower through my cheek/upper lip, breaking and knocking out a front tooth, chipped several other teeth and created a .75" diameter wound. One brass fragment, approximately 3/8" diameter lodged itself in the bone between my nose and upper lip.

All 6 cartridges went off to one degree or another. Too much gas was immediately generated to be vented off safely. The magazine tube plug and spring blew out of the muzzle end and were never recovered. The magazine tube itself blew out of the receiver and flared open, spewing shrapnel and debris directly into my face. The loading gate was blown outward from the receiver. Several of the cartridge case heads and lead bullets lodged in the receiver, under the carrier, although at least one bullet struck me on the left collarbone and created a deep bruise. After the magazine follower struck me it continued its rearward flight and was recovered 25 yards behind the firing line. Needless to say, the forend shattered into splinters.

I corresponded with R.W. Balleu (sp?) after his article in Handloader (or was it Rifle?), guessing that a high primer was probably the cause of my accident. He send me a very nice handwritten letter in response which I filed away in such a safe place that I can't locate it now, but the jist of his letter was:
Yes, magazine explosions while fortunately rare, can happen and can cause severe injury. In my case, he said not to be too quick to blame a high primer. He pointed out that several factors may have contributed to the ignition, and certainly made things worse.

First, the fat, straight sided .44 Mag case... places the cartridges in direct alignment with each other so the nose of the bullets contact the rear of the case ahead of it, fully over the primer pocket, and the fat case takes up almost all of the space in the mag tube, so there's less room for any gas to expand and dissipate. A bottle shaped/tapered case, particularly one with a large rim, is much safer in this respect.

Next, Unique is an easily ignited fast burning powder that produces a lot of gas immediately and once any is ignited, all is consumed. The same factors that make Unique good for reduced loads in large cases, worked against me in this accident. If I'd used a slower burning or less readily ignitable powder, there is little risk of a chain detonation. With slow burning powder, at worst one or two rounds may have gone off, and even then the powder would have probably only been partially consumed.

Next, my choice of Federal 150 pistol primers meant I'd picked the most sensitive primer on the market.

Next, the Rossi magazine tube is not threaded into the receiver like on a Winchester M1886 or M71. If it had been screwed into the receiver, it may have held in place as the large volume of gas and material were seeking to escape. If the magazine tube had remained fixed in the receiver, the main force of the explosion would have been contained within the action.

Finally, the relatively soft cast lead bullets may have been the source of ignition, and once one round had gone off, led to all of the cartridges in the magazine going off. I had originally loaded 10 rounds in the magazine, shot several times, and loaded several fresh rounds. It's possible that the lead bullets in one or more of the first cartridges deformed under recoil and extruded into the primer pocket of the cartridge ahead of it. Looking at the photos, you can see that this definitely happened in all cartridges once the first one went off.

<end quote>

 

 

More on the incident

 

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73196-how-flat-is-flat-nose-for-tube-mag/page2&highlight=magazine+tube+explosion

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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I know a lot of folks love Federal primers. I always use CCI primers in my Cowboy loads and in my 30-30 loads. I will only use federal primers in loads for my DA revolver ammo. 
I have never had an incident with magazine detonation nor do I play the odds with more sensitive primers or primer seating, regardless of primers used. 

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Wow... food for thought.
I have a very ample stock of XTP in both 357 and 44 that I want to use in my lever guns.
Also have some FTX rubber nose both both.
My primer stock is all over the board, all brands in stock as I find them at bargain prices.

Edited by bgavin
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If you question the crimp take each round and push it firmly against the side of your work bench . I test all my reloads like that.

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Ask Blackwater. He had a magazine detonation in a rifle several years ago. It was caused ba cast bullets with almost flat tips. I dont think it would be worth the cost.

 

Imis

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