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That's not so much a Hollywood faux pas as a training problem. People have found, over the years, that you will do in real life what you did in training. It is very difficult to break training.

 

They used to teach cops that, after shooting their revolver dry on the range, they would dump the brass in their hand and then put it in their pocket. That way when they were through shooting they could go over and put the fire brass in the empty brass can. Then they found dead policemen with empty brass in their pants pocket. Training took over.

 

They don't train you to shoot people in the head. They train you to shoot them in the center mass.

 

If I shoot you three times in the chest, and you don't die, if I then shoot you three times in the hip joint, you will go down. You may even die - there's a good chance I will take out the femoral artery. But if I blow away your hip joint you are on the ground. But nobody shoots at the hip joint.

 

If you are driving down the road and you have to make an emergency stop, and you step on the brake and the pedal goes all the way to the floor, you will continue stepping on the brake. If you pull the transmission down from drive to low it might screw your transmission up, but it would slow the car down. If you turn the engine off it would slow the car down. People don't do that. They just keep stamping on the brake pedal that does nothing. Because that's how they learned to stop the car.

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When I shoot silhouette targets my first shot is at the head and the next two in the boiler room. The first shot nearly always hits right between the eyes.

 

If I start shooting at the heart then switch to the head I always hit the head of the target in the ear...not kidding. Don't know why.

 

Maybe I was an ear piercer is a past life. :lol:

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An old style police Captain I knew advocated shooting for the hip / groin area.  His contention, they might not die, but they definitely would not keep coming.

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56 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Mozambique Drill

this

4 minutes ago, Alpo said:

If I shoot you three times in the chest, and you don't die, if I then shoot you three times in the hip joint, you will go down. You may even die - there's a good chance I will take out the femoral artery. But if I blow away your hip joint you are on the ground. But nobody shoots at the hip joint.

 

and this A++

 

 

I teach (and practice) both of these every week. The pelvic girdle is HUGE target zone that is extremely underused, except by the bad guys, that will incapacitate even the most drugged up or psychotic person(s) out there, with or without body armor, because it's a major structural point. The truly bad guys started teaching this little tid-bit in the prisons due to the majority of LEO agencies requiring body armor be worn. If you cannot stand you cannot move and that makes you a sitting target. When drawing from concealment (or open) you can start shooting at the initial draw towards the first target offered to the muzzle, which is the girdle, and then move your way up to the chest and then the head if necessary as you back away from the threat. Shooting on the move is also essential training. Static line shooting teaches nothing for self defense situations. The Mozambique drill is taught by my agency and I encourage every LEO (and private student I teach) to add that to their shooting routine. I push them to add a few mozembique's while shooting their quals under the pressure of the clock. It may not be real life but the time aspect does pump up the adrenaline as we competitive shooters know.

 

   

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18 minutes ago, John E. Law said:

this

and this A++

 

 

I teach (and practice) both of these every week. The pelvic girdle is HUGE target zone that is extremely underused, except by the bad guys, that will incapacitate even the most drugged up or psychotic person(s) out there, with or without body armor, because it's a major structural point. The truly bad guys started teaching this little <SNIP>

push them to add a few mozembique's while shooting their quals under the pressure of the clock. It may not be real life but the time aspect does pump up the adrenaline as we competitive shooters know.

 

   

A few other things to consider - putting a shot into the chest may be the wrong move when someone is wearing body armor or worse yet explosives. 

Even if it's not commercial armor, a chest carrier full of AK or AR magazines can stop a handgun round.  If there is any reason to suspect that there

is a vest, stabilizing your shooting platform and doing a precision shot to the head is much more effective and quicker.

 

Head shots are difficult as the head moves a lot, the skull is fairly round and it is wet, so it has some give; bullets are likely to deflect if not square on - requiring

well placed shots into the eye sockets, nose cavity or mouth, or the ear from the side. 

 

Shots into the pelvic girdle are very effective at putting someone on the ground, as well as guaranteeing that they will spend the rest of their life with a colostomy bag,

but it doesn't guarantee that they will stop shooting at you from the ground.  If you're drunk/doped enough to be feeling no pain or are raging, stuff's going to

keep happening.

 

In a similar vein to ALPO's comment about "train like you fight, fight like you train", we do not do El Presidentes anymore because it is tactically unsound to engage

multiple targets that way.  Instead we have each person shoot 1,2,3 and then repeat going 3,2,1 so that you have hit each opponent as fast as possible at least once.

Many shooters are 4-5 seconds into the exchange by the time they draw then shoot the first two targets, by which time the 3rd tgt has put 2 or 3 into you. There's no best 

answer, but there are some that are worse than others.

 

Stay safe,

 

SC

 

 

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1 hour ago, ShadowCatcher said:

A few other things to consider...

 

There's no best 

answer, but there are some that are worse than others.

 

Stay safe,

 

SC

 

 

 

 

All great points. The reason I continue to train myself and my students as I do is that muscle memory takes over and fine motor skills, including critical detailed thinking, go out the window in these times of stress. While the 2 chest shots may not penetrate they will stun and the follow up head shot should. A person trying to differentiate a vest from a jacket under that type of situations is nearly impossible so I would rather they continue going center mass with a follow up to the head than try to interpret the situation and to try to just go for the head shot to start.

 

I also know for sure about the continued fight personally. I broke a guys femur who was on PCP, on my third day on the job, back in 95. He continued to fight from the ground while the leg flailed around like he never knew it happened. It took 6 of us to secure a 5' 6" 125lb guy. He ended up loosing the leg because he did so much damage to the internals from the sharp broken femur that turned everything to hamburger. The Femoral was severed and if paramedics hadn't been on scene right then he probably would have died. My point is if the subject can't get around, but you can, take advantage and shoot on the move while he's unable. No matter how high a pain tolerance is a person physically cannot stand when the foundation has absolutely noting to support it. That could give you the advantage to move to cover or continue to move and shoot giving you the advantage.   As you said, There are no "best answers".

 

JEL

 

 

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Whenever there's a police shooting in the news they always interview someone who says "Why did they have to kill him? Why couldn't they have just shot the gun out of his hand or put one in his kneecap and felled him?"

 

Yes, the average person in the street is indeed that clueless. If TV cops can do it why can't the real ones?

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A dead offender, will not be a repeat offender.:ph34r:

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Simply, in Law Enforcement it is called applying Lethal Force or Deadly Force.  To be used only  under dire circumstances.  There should be no half measures.  Basic rule, Come Home Alive.

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Two to the chest and one to the head can be "just the beginning".  Shoot until the situation is resolved, not until you reach a specific number of rounds.

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4 minutes ago, LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L said:

Two to the chest and one to the head can be "just the beginning".  Shoot until the situation is resolved, not until you reach a specific number of rounds.

Amen, A gunfight isn't over until it's over. 

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

A dead offender, will not be a repeat offender.:ph34r:

The Santa Rosa County Florida Sheriff just said that exact same thing. 

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2 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

Whenever there's a police shooting in the news they always interview someone who says "Why did they have to kill him? Why couldn't they have just shot the gun out of his hand or put one in his kneecap and felled him?"

 

Yes, the average person in the street is indeed that clueless. If TV cops can do it why can't the real ones?

Like we train and all have the talent to be exhibition shooters. Gotta love the media!

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Many tactical shooting schools are teaching: 2 center of mass- 1 to pelvic area- 1 to head, for that reason. The big emphasis is shoot till the problem stops and unless you have been in a actual gun fight you cannot describe the terror of the event.

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5 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

When I shoot silhouette targets my first shot is at the head and the next two in the boiler room. The first shot nearly always hits right between the eyes.

 

If I start shooting at the heart then switch to the head I always hit the head of the target in the ear...not kidding. Don't know why.

 

Maybe I was an ear piercer is a past life. :lol:

"Ear today, gone tomorrow!":lol:

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7 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

When I shoot silhouette targets my first shot is at the head and the next two in the boiler room. The first shot nearly always hits right between the eyes.

 

If I start shooting at the heart then switch to the head I always hit the head of the target in the ear...not kidding. Don't know why.

 

Maybe I was an ear piercer is a past life. :lol:

Most people loosen their grip by the time the third shot is fired.  Some also have trouble acquiring a new sight picture

and settling down on it before pushing the trigger.

 

Sykes, Fairbairn, Applegate and a few others who were teaching point shooting back in the real old days noted this behavior as part of their

training regimen.   

 

Try again and make a serious concerted effort to maintain a hard grip and confirm sight picture for the third shot and see what happens.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, John E. Law said:

 

 

All great points. The reason I continue to train myself and my students as I do is that muscle memory takes over and fine motor skills, including critical detailed thinking, go out the window in these times of stress. While the 2 chest shots may not penetrate they will stun and the follow up head shot should. A person trying to differentiate a vest from a jacket under that type of situations is nearly impossible so I would rather they continue going center mass with a follow up to the head than try to interpret the situation and to try to just go for the head shot to start.

<SNIP>

JEL

 

 

Agreed 100%.

 

My point about the head shot and ammo carrier / vests / explosives was really more for the "Church Shooter", "Movie Theater" or "night club" scenario where you have

an active shooter in a crowd, and have sufficient time to assess and then act.  It also offers the advantage that if you crouch even slightly you usually have a climbing

bullet trajectory when it impacts, so if it over penetrates it is unlikely to go into the crowd, but rather up and over. 

 

When it's a F2F confrontation and you have to act 'now' to stop the threat to yourself then you do what is reliant on using gross motor skills.  That's when multiple shots

to CoM and then shift to Head makes sense.  Probably one of the few times when vertical stringing is useful rather than a bad habit.

 

Stay safe,

SC

 

 

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24 minutes ago, ShadowCatcher said:

Most people loosen their grip by the time the third shot is fired.  Some also have trouble acquiring a new sight picture

and settling down on it before pushing the trigger.

 

Sykes, Fairbairn, Applegate and a few others who were teaching point shooting back in the real old days noted this behavior as part of their

training regimen.   

 

Try again and make a serious concerted effort to maintain a hard grip and confirm sight picture for the third shot and see what happens.

 

 

 

I will try this. Thank you. 

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Shooting a melon sized target with speed and accuracy, while being shot at, possibly in low light conditions, experiencing tunnel vision, erratic breathing, and a huge adrenalin dump should be a piece of cake right? :rolleyes:

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55 minutes ago, ShadowCatcher said:

Most people loosen their grip by the time the third shot is fired.  Some also have trouble acquiring a new sight picture

and settling down on it before pushing the trigger.

 

Sykes, Fairbairn, Applegate and a few others who were teaching point shooting back in the real old days noted this behavior as part of their

training regimen.   

 

Try again and make a serious concerted effort to maintain a hard grip and confirm sight picture for the third shot and see what happens.

 

 

 

Just been revisiting Shooting to Live by Fairbairn & Sykes - a fine addition to any shooter's library.

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8 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

When I shoot silhouette targets my first shot is at the head and the next two in the boiler room. The first shot nearly always hits right between the eyes.

 

If I start shooting at the heart then switch to the head I always hit the head of the target in the ear...not kidding. Don't know why.

 

Maybe I was an ear piercer is a past life. :lol:

 

Not quite the Mozambique Drill.

 

Maybe this qualifies as the Tyson Technique.

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3 hours ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

Many tactical shooting schools are teaching: 2 center of mass- 1 to pelvic area- 1 to head, for that reason. The big emphasis is shoot till the problem stops and unless you have been in a actual gun fight you cannot describe the terror of the event.


 Very true ,  I always taught triple tap 2 center mass, one head, Now this changes on situation,( why I cleared with 458 Socom ) it canoes a BHG ,, Point and click center mass with that round they dont move .
 I can not train the adrenaline factor , But I can train reflex and that helps Each room is different and a ability to adjust is a must this is where training comes in. I trained live fire  shoot houses so it had to right. If distance is close straight head shots  You dont have time to wait to ID if target is wearing Body armor .

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9 hours ago, John E. Law said:

this

and this A++

 

 

I teach (and practice) both of these every week. The pelvic girdle is HUGE target zone that is extremely underused, except by the bad guys, that will incapacitate even the most drugged up or psychotic person(s) out there, with or without body armor, because it's a major structural point. The truly bad guys started teaching this little tid-bit in the prisons due to the majority of LEO agencies requiring body armor be worn. If you cannot stand you cannot move and that makes you a sitting target. When drawing from concealment (or open) you can start shooting at the initial draw towards the first target offered to the muzzle, which is the girdle, and then move your way up to the chest and then the head if necessary as you back away from the threat. Shooting on the move is also essential training. Static line shooting teaches nothing for self defense situations. The Mozambique drill is taught by my agency and I encourage every LEO (and private student I teach) to add that to their shooting routine. I push them to add a few mozembique's while shooting their quals under the pressure of the clock. It may not be real life but the time aspect does pump up the adrenaline as we competitive shooters know.

 

   

That's what I was taught.  Might not kill the guy instantly but it will stop him and give you a chance to move and go for a kill shot.

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The classic shot is between the lower lip and the nose.  Takes out the medulla and everything stops.  The hip shot was used in dueling days because individual hit might live, but would never be the same.

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14 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

The classic shot is between the lower lip and the nose.  Takes out the medulla and everything stops.  The hip shot was used in dueling days because individual hit might live, but would never be the same.

Yep  from a military standpoint , I don’t like to pelvic shot moving target , a shot in leg will still allow target to return fire . While head shot target down . 
 Perfect example was a LEO  that shot a shooter in leg twice , result dead LEO as he was shot in neck . 
Military example Bin Laden had weapons near going for them  pelvic shot he might have been able to reach and return fire , the double tap to face target eliminated 
 

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1. A dead enemy cannot fight back.
2. A dead enemy never heals to fight again. 
3. A dead enemy cannot sue you in court later. 

 

My goal, in a life or death situation, isn’t to wound so it takes two more fighters off the field to care for a wounded man. Whoever came up with this battle strategy probably never came under enemy fire…in my opinion. And neither have I, to be truthful. I do not want to, therefore see 1-3 above

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On 5/3/2022 at 9:55 AM, Rip Snorter said:

An old style police Captain I knew advocated shooting for the hip / groin area.  His contention, they might not die, but they definitely would not keep coming.


I watched this video the other day, I wonder if he saw the same footage back then:
 

 

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